Holien Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 I think he has explained what he was up to but did not realise he had a Panther in front of him, it might have worked if there had been no unseen Panther? Also as he has mentioned he views them as recon elements so he is prepared to gamble with them.The gamble lost but as you say he should now have a pretty good idea on what Baneman has, if he is prepared to do the math. He is already talking about 2 companies Germans so I think he is on right track.I guess Baneman is getting caught up with Christmas so turns might slow? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BletchleyGeek Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 I think he has explained what he was up to but did not realise he had a Panther in front of him, it might have worked if there had been no unseen Panther? Also as he has mentioned he views them as recon elements so he is prepared to gamble with them.The gamble lost but as you say he should now have a pretty good idea on what Baneman has, if he is prepared to do the math. He is already talking about 2 companies Germans so I think he is on right track.He did state his intention, but not really explain it, Holien I am skeptical it would have worked very well, those Hellcats were easily over 1,000 meters of Panther-1, and even with an oblique engagement angle I don't see how the Hellcat gun could stand a chance unless hitting the side turret amour of the Panther (Vanir can probably say a lot about what would be the chances of that). I still think that he saw what he thought was a bumbling and - in his eyes - somewhat shambolic infantry heavy attack, without pausing for a second that his opponent may be covering his advance as well on the center... and jumped forward to strike decisively and stop Baneman in his tracks. Now he has the info... and Baneman's too - just checked his thread. I am pretty sure it won't take long Baneman to realize that with five different Hellcats, and a Sherman, there's not a lot of points to spend on infantry...Yet I do agree with you that Bil will come on top 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Wenman Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 (edited) I think what is illustrated here is that Bils OOB choice is a high stakes option. There is a reason why armies fight with combined arms forces. Baneman has a "balanced" task force (although far from perfect) while Bil has no real infantry to speak of.Given enough time Baneman can probably move his infantry the length of the map, in much the way a real battlefield commander would. However he has a tight timescale to work with and snow on the ground. I read people suggesting that he should be moving mounted infantry quickly forward, but really can't see how that could be achieved. Any vehicle movement in the open will be punished by long range direct fire (as far as the weather permits) and Baneman knows this. He also knows he has to do the moving. If he can keep pressing with his infantry and rest them sufficiently I can see him grinding forward. Whether he has enough time to make the gains required is another matter, but in this instance I do wonder if the map and mission time was always going to preclude an Axis win. Rushing forward into a prepared defence was never going to be a winning strategy.Bils recon force and tank killers would have worked perfectly had Baneman gone with an armour only or heavy force, but he didn't and Bil then made a mistake in thinking he could push forward and create an ambush, whereas he had no real reason to do so and it's cost him three Hellcats. At some point Baneman may well realise that Bil has very little infantry and if he can find routes to infiltrate and close on Bils armour, particular with tank hunter forces then Bil will have to react to avoid close armour assaults and PF's.I do agree if Baneman loses the JT regardless of cause then it's most likely game over, but hey, everybody wanted him to purchase it. IMO opinion Baneman has purchased units to show off the new game, while Bil has purchased units to win the QB. P Edited December 22, 2015 by Pete Wenman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockinHarry Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 I missed reading the last AAR entries before posting here, so it´s now getting more towards a remis...in armor. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BletchleyGeek Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 I do agree if Baneman loses the JT regardless of cause then it's most likely game over, but hey, everybody wanted him to purchase it. IMO opinion Baneman has purchased units to show off the new game, while Bil has purchased units to win the QB. I would say that the new US Army toys - the M36, the up-gunned and up-armored Shermans variants - served equally well both purposes, showcasing and winning. I do think as well that Baneman's center of gravity are his very limited armored assets, but I would say that the Panthers are more valuable than the JT in this context. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macisle Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 I would say that the new US Army toys - the M36, the up-gunned and up-armored Shermans variants - served equally well both purposes, showcasing and winning. I do think as well that Baneman's center of gravity are his very limited armored assets, but I would say that the Panthers are more valuable than the JT in this context. -Just got a laugh from the last sentence of this paragraph from the wikiP article on the M36:The M36 was well liked by its crews, being one of the few armored fighting vehicles available to US forces that could destroy heavy German tanks from a distance. In an engagement with a German Panther tank at 1500 yards, an M36 of the 776th TD Battalion was able to penetrate the turret armor. Crews of the M36 found that it was better to target the turret rather than the glacis plate. In addition, crews found the Panther tank to be vulnerable when hit from the side. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BletchleyGeek Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 -Just got a laugh from the last sentence of this paragraph from the wikiP article on the M36:The M36 was well liked by its crews, being one of the few armored fighting vehicles available to US forces that could destroy heavy German tanks from a distance. In an engagement with a German Panther tank at 1500 yards, an M36 of the 776th TD Battalion was able to penetrate the turret armor. Crews of the M36 found that it was better to target the turret rather than the glacis plate. In addition, crews found the Panther tank to be vulnerable when hit from the side.I am not sure that two M18 make a M36 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Backer Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 I am not sure that two M18 make a M36 Apparently, three don't make a Panther, either. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak40 Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Well, if he gets down to only his 2 M36s before he takes out all of the cats then he's going to loose. The Shermans are the only real effective units that he has against the infantry. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 I am skeptical it would have worked very well, those Hellcats were easily over 1,000 meters of Panther-1, and even with an oblique engagement angle I don't see how the Hellcat gun could stand a chance unless hitting the side turret amour of the Panther (Vanir can probably say a lot about what would be the chances of that). Range to Panther-1 was 800-850 meters. The odds of a hit penetrating are not good but not impossible, maybe 1/4 to1/3 assuming the entire tank was exposed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 About Panther vulnerability, I'm not sure but I think the Panthers on the map are Panther G (late) which would have the later chin mantlet - which might reduce the frequency of lucky hits to the turret front, maybe. Hmmm... Inspecting the screenshots closer maybe its one Panther G (mid) and one (late).One piece of armor on the map nobody talks about is that German AA halftrack. Bil appears to be unaware of it and I imagine M36 armor wouldn't be able to stand up to getting hosed by an autocannon. It could make for a nasty surprise. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Just seen Baneman post and that shot of the Panther shows it is pretty side on to Bils hunting party. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Indeed on a different day that could have ended differently. Good to read that he is taking steps to protect his flanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sttp Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 One piece of armor on the map nobody talks about is that German AA halftrack. Bil appears to be unaware of it and I imagine M36 armor wouldn't be able to stand up to getting hosed by an autocannon. It could make for a nasty surprise. Wow, you're right.. With all the talk of "Big Kitty" and the two Panthers, !, for one, had completely forgotten about that AA halftrack. And those things can put a real hurtin' on some of the lighter armor. I guess I'll have to go back over Baneman's thread to see what his approach is with that thing.In general, seems like Baneman is in good shape. Just hope he doesn't get too impatient... and hence careless. (I do that all the time.)One of my concerns for him has always been the lack of shreks & fausts in his infantry units. (I think he only has two?) Sure, with as much infantry as he has, some of 'em will be able to flow through any small cracks in the defense, but... if those troops can't take out any of Bill's armor "by hand," from the flanks, it seems like their movement across the map will still be very, very restricted. And Bil still has, what, TEN big guns left?Should be very interesting!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincere Posted December 24, 2015 Author Share Posted December 24, 2015 (edited) It does affect them, but it's not nearly enough to eliminate the usefulness of having them in place and ready to kick ass (even if their legs are a bit tired, so the first kicks aren't as hard; better than no kicks at all). Often. It depends on the terrain and the loading of the troops. Sometimes over-using Quick is just tiring them for no gain.Thanks womble, usefulness of having them in place and ready to kick ass good point ! I think I've been too conservative with the quick. Will use it more with longer pauses to eyeball threat areas. . Vanir Ausf B Range to Panther-1 was 800-850 meters. The odds of a hit penetrating are not good but not impossible, maybe 1/4 to1/3 assuming the entire tank was exposed.Yeah, I think Bill's reasoning wasn't too off. 1/3 odds with 3 or 4 hellcats firing on one. Reasonable odds that due to FOW he could reasonably think he may not get in next duel. But Wow- friction hit bill in the faceAgreed that I'm surprised he is all up front. But I guess he has mobility to pull back for some deeper kill zones Edited December 24, 2015 by vincere add a quote 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 I've just started to read this thread. It makes the AAR even more enjoyable. Although this battle ain't over yet, it is always interesting to see that a battle can be decided within seconds. Bil's strategy to hunt in couples (with tanks or tank destroyers) doesn't always seem to work. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 I have just read Baneman report and I do hope he sets up some armoured cover arcs.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 Is it me or is Repsol being a bit dangerous with his post in Banemans thread? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 Is it me or is Repsol being a bit dangerous with his post in Banemans thread?By God,,,I hope not !Baneman have clearly identified those tanks backing up to behind the ridge....I don't know what i could have revealed ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 Sorry he saw five tanks and three are dead, you I think imply there are more, sorry I could be reading into your post more than there is? I did not want to flag it in front of Baneman. Hence wanted a second opinion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 Have a look at the picture posted 6:48 in banemans thread...shows 5 tanks backing up...does it not ? (besides the already killed...)I hope i have not given anything away...That was not my intention... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 OK NP maybe I am reading into it more than Baneman will. I mean no disrespect to you, I was just worried it gave some insights to Baneman. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 OK NP maybe I am reading into it more than Baneman will. I mean no disrespect to you, No problems...You might be right...Others might agree with you (hopefully not though)...Mary christmas to you to... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sttp Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 No problems...You might be right...Others might agree with you (hopefully not though)...I think you're fine, Repsol. I'll admit, my eyes did get big a couple of times while reading your reply in the main thread, but you're covered. It's fine, IMO. Baneman's post from yesterday afternoon makes it apparent that he is indeed aware of 5 pieces of heavy armor up ahead. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 I think you're fine, Repsol. I'll admit, my eyes did get big a couple of times while reading your reply in the main thread, but you're covered. It's fine, IMO. Baneman's post from yesterday afternoon makes it apparent that he is indeed aware of 5 pieces of heavy armor up ahead.Thanks...good to know...I'd hate it if i ruined this christmas drama... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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