BETA AAR- Spoiler- Discussion Thread

[Bradley]

I like Bil in what could be a rout. Armor spotting can be fickle and cost you 1 or 2, however he has (13 tanks?) and is adept at getting them into good overwatch/hulldown positions. With Shermans at range can handle any infantry thrown at him. Curious to see how 90mm performs against Jagtiger and overall.

[ChrisND]

I realize I posted this pic before in another thread, but... I'm wondering if some of us have the wrong idea about how vulnerable the sides of that JagdTiger are? (And I am 100% open to the possibility that it is me who has the wrong idea.)

But I bet there were 3 dozen + hits to its sides here -- it's from a ChrisND YouTube preview, BTW -- and this beast survived just fine. And those AP rounds weren't coming from piddly little Stuarts or whatever, either.

Any reason to believe the JagdTiger's side armor thickness in-game wouldn't be very close to its real life number (which is about 80mm, AFAIK)? That's not too shabby for the sides....

 

As I recall however (without reviewing the video, just memory), the vast majority of the hits to the Jagdtiger sides in that preview were glancing shots at a high angle. Very different from a hit at an orthogonal angle where the armor thickness will be the thinnest.

[vincere]

I watched the vid yesterday. You did say it was an odd angle as the tank had stopped while pointing down a steep slope.

 

Still, we will see soon enough. I guess the engagement range due to visibility will help Bill's armour; and possibly Baneman's infantry.

[RockinHarry]

Reload rates for the Jagdtiger gun will be of interest. With some careful micro managing one could possibly time movements between successive shots, or pop up from cover, pause 10-20 seconds, fire 2-3 shots at the JTiger and reverse into cover again, before the JTiger is ready. With some luck, one can possibly immobilize it, damage some sub systems and so forth. In this state, the JTiger is as good as useless, if the crew does not bail then anyway. But prime targets remain the Panthers, which IMO need to be taken out first.

[CarlWAW]

My bets are clearly on Bil. I have doubts that the Axis attacker even has any chance with his force composition.

Baneman should be the one who is able to develop initiative and determine where to strike. IMO he is lacking artillery, tanks and especially mobility for a German styled attack.

Additionally the map is quite deep (compared to LOS), which IMO demands even more mobility. Ironically I think that Bil seems to apply a much more German style (except that he is splitting his tanks from the very beginning and chaining them to infantry).

 

Worse, the attacker can't use the Jagdtiger in it's needed role. Distance, LOS and the intended tactical environment IMO forbid to use it here. So the points are almost wasted.

And the JTiger is not even needed against the US armor Baneman can expect at these very short distances.

 

Does anyone know how many Panthers could have been purchased instead of one JT?

 

Because of the the action and because I am keen on CMFB it will be fun to watch, but from a tactical point of view, honestly, I don't like it.

Edited December 11, 2015 by CarlWAW

[Doc844]

As far as the JTIGER goes since this is a showcase for the new bulge game I think he would have been strung up if he hadn't included one of the BIG cats.  Plus I secretly think he really really wanted to use it anyway.  What's the point of being selected as a player for a preview battle and not take out the new toy lol.  Kiddie in a sweet shop springs to mind.

[vincere]

Reload rates for the Jagdtiger gun will be of interest. With some careful micro managing one could possibly time movements between successive shots, or pop up from cover, pause 10-20 seconds, fire 2-3 shots at the JTiger and reverse into cover again, before the JTiger is ready. With some luck, one can possibly immobilize it, damage some sub systems and so forth. In this state, the JTiger is as good as useless, if the crew does not bail then anyway. But prime targets remain the Panthers, which IMO need to be taken out first.

As far as the JTIGER goes since this is a showcase for the new bulge game I think he would have been strung up if he hadn't included one of the BIG cats.  Plus I secretly think he really really wanted to use it anyway.  What's the point of being selected as a player for a preview battle and not take out the new toy lol.  Kiddie in a sweet shop springs to mind.

Yep, it would be very interesting to know how many Panthers he could have got for his tiger. Or other thin skinned sniping AT assets if he'd reduced a platoon or two.

That said, one of the great things about CM is how 'Friction' sneaks or jumps out to bite in the ass. A little too much friction on one side combined with logical but mistaken moves because of fog of war could swing things. Just hope Baneman has a tank past the 30 minute mark.

[Stiboo]

Baneman has a tough job I think, he has so few tanks that he really needs to keep to the roads and keep them together (maybe 2 battlegroups), Bil just needs to find out what road(s) out of the 4 or 5 he will come down, and send in his tanks, but I never like jeeps as mine never last long so I'm surprised Bil has so many, really hoping Baneman's armour survives the first clashes - then we really have a battle!

[Vanir Ausf B]

Yep, it would be very interesting to know how many Panthers he could have got for his tiger.

He could have got the engine and transmission for one additional Panther . Jagdtigers cost almost exactly the same at King Tigers.

[vincere]

He could have got the engine and transmission for one additional Panther . Jagdtigers cost almost exactly the same at King Tigers.

Well that's just being silly. He may as well leave the engine and transmission, buy the gun and cut holes through the base of the tank.

[Vic4]

pair of kidneys: 2.734 points

[CarlWAW]

In my opinion Bil has made one mistake. He forgot Sherman 105 howitzer fields a big HEAT round. Getting off a clean shot would've involved much skill and even more luck but a HEAT round is a HEAT round. It might not penetrate the absurdly thick Jagdtiger upper hull front but everything else is fair game.

AFAIK the Panther frontally was very well protected against Heat because of the very high angle of it's hull. For a steeper angle at impact the howitzer's distance needs to be so far away, that the hitting probability is getting very low. I don't think Bil made a mistake.

 

Another reason why I believe Bil has a big advantage which so far nobody has mentioned: the dangerous penetration zone for the Panther against the 76mm gun frontally begun at 700 m, while the Pz V could destroy any Sherman at least up to 1000 m. The snow removes this tactical advantage of the Panthers.

It seems this battle's parameters were quite well chosen against one poor sob.

 

To showcase CMFB's tactical capabilities and the formidable power of the Jagdtiger at it's time, I think a wide open map with LOS of 3 km and 5 km in depth, with a company of JTs in defense and facing a MASSIVE Alliied onslaught  with 1-2 tank battalions, infantry, heavily supported by artillery and the USAF would have been extremely .

 

Edited December 12, 2015 by CarlWAW

[mbarbaric]

 

To showcase CMFB's tactical capabilities and the formidable power of the Jagdtiger at it's time, I think a wide open map with LOS of 3 km and 5 km in depth, with a company of JTs in defense and facing a MASSIVE Alliied onslaught  with 1-2 tank battalions, infantry, heavily supported by artillery and the USAF would have been extremely .

 

in fact, that iis how they should have done it. let someone chose the troops for both sides and clash with selection of weapons and forces. too bad that during battle of nulge there was never 3 to 5 kilometers in depth LOS

[Vanir Ausf B]

in fact, that iis how they should have done it. let someone chose the troops for both sides and clash with selection of weapons and forces.

They did do that in the last AAR for Black Sea. I know Bil was not happy about the OOBs in that battle.

[c3k]

My battle with Bil for MG was similar: I chose an airborne heavy oob, to showcase what they could do. He picked a lot of armor. I still won.

The QB force selection "meta-game" is something which can create asymmetries. That's what we're seeing. I'd prefer, like Bil, that someone else choose forces (maybe just a minimum equipment list) so that a bit of everything will be in the mix and neither side is so "off".

That JagdTiger could still rule the map...if Baneman doesn't bog it or lose the TC to a sniper.

[Vanir Ausf B]

 I'd prefer, like Bil, that someone else choose forces (maybe just a minimum equipment list) so that a bit of everything will be in the mix and neither side is so "off".

I think Bil prefers to pick his own  

I play QBs with what I call the Combined Arms house rule that limits armor to a percentage of your total points, typically 30 or 33 percent, but a understand the appeal of unlimited experimentation to see what works.

[Bud Backer]

I think Bil prefers to pick his own  

I play QBs with what I call the Combined Arms house rule that limits armor to a percentage of your total points, typically 30 or 33 percent, but a understand the appeal of unlimited experimentation to see what works.

Vanir, this isn't the first time I think you brought this up and I wanted to ask:

30% is a min, or a max? If it's a max, do you have a minimum (or vice versa) ? 

Edited December 12, 2015 by Bud_B

[Vanir Ausf B]

30% is a min, or a max? If it's a max, do you have a minimum (or vice versa) ? 

Max. When it comes to tanks there is no need for a minimum requirement 

[Derfel 2nd]

My battle with Bil for MG was similar: I chose an airborne heavy oob, to showcase what they could do. He picked a lot of armor. I still won.

Hang on, you won? Are you drunk or am I? (50-50 chance I suppose) I seem to recall Bil beat the pants off you and then used them to flog you around the house...

No, I couldn't be arsed to look it up, I genereally prefer to make my mind up first, then ignore any facts, I find it... soothing...

/Derfel

 

[c3k]

By MY definition...I won.   After all, the only thing that really matters is panache and style. Plus, my wife executed several turns. C'mon, that's priceless.

But, back on topic: since these battles should showcase the upcoming game, there should be a bit of 3rd party oversight to ensure the clash will produce sparks. Right now, it seems like we'll hear a lot of thuds and then "Hilfe!" as Baneman's infantry meet Mr. Ma Deuce.

 

[Migo441]

Ken TO-tally won the MG demo battle vs. Bil.  (Seriously, he did; Tactical Victory.)  However, from what I can tell, Bil's Germans scored important bragging rights by cease firing before Ken could take (retake?) the Windmill.

And yes, I think the whole pick-your-own-forces aspect of these is a reliable source of catastrophe.  Should be possible for a neutral third-party to pick an interesting balanced force mix so we can talk more about the actual fighting and less about force mix imbalances.

[MikeyD]

So it appears the falling snow isn't quite as significant as we thought it would be in spotting. Apparently cuts off visibility at about 950 meters or so. That's still a respectable range and not much farther than normal combat rages at the time in that landscape, anyway.

About the two sides picking their forces. Lets remember this is a demonstration so there's pressure to lean heavily on showcasing the newest equipment. Baneman could've picked Jagdpanther instead of Jagdtiger for fewer points but everyone's already seen Jagdpanther.  Bil's Sherman Jumbo is a heavy but has grouses attached to the tracks. That gives it about the same flotation as a normal VVSS Sherman so it shouldn't be any more prone to bogging in snow (knock wood)

[c3k]

Well, the only reason it was an Allied Tactical Victory was because Bil was gracious enough to ceasefire when he did, and he was gentlemanly enough to leave the victory locations at his end of the map unoccupied. Had the battle continued much longer, the Glider Pilots would have had to bid their barmaids "adieu": yes, it would've been that grim.

 

Bil is an exemplary pbem partner and it was my pleasure to be able to partake in an aar with him.

But, about this one...

 

Baneman NEEDS to split his forces. His armor needs to stay at standoff ranges of 800m+. 1,200m+ for the Jagdtiger if able. His infantry needs to get within 60m of Bil's forces (Pf and Psk effective ranges. 80m to 100m would be extreme.)

This will be hard to do....unless his inf can gain the objectives and force Bil to close with them.

 

[Wicky]

So it appears the falling snow isn't quite as significant as we thought it would be in spotting. Apparently cuts off visibility at about 950 meters or so. That's still a respectable range and not much farther than normal combat rages at the time in that landscape, anyway.

It seems the Heavy snow setting visibility is more akin to Light/Medium according to this document > www.icao.int/safety/meteorology/amofsg/.../AMOFSG.7.IP.004.5.en.doc

Greater than or equal to 1.0 km (greater than ½ SM [statute mile]): Light
0.4 km< visibility < 1.0 km ( > 1/4SM and less than or equal 1/2SM : Moderate
Less than or equal to: 0.4 km  (less than or equal 1/4SM)    : Heavy

 

 Maybe the snow settings need renaming or the visibility ranges needs looking at.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Wicky

[MikeyD]

Lets remember 'heavy snow' isn't the most extreme in the game. 'Blizzard' conditions cuts visibility to about 300m (about the same as hvy fog). Still, I'll drop a post to the powers-that-be, see if they're happy with current LOS settings.