More Bulge Info! (and a few screenshots...)

[Duckman]

Terrain analysis, which identifies key terrain, fields of fire, potential kill sacks, potential support weapon positions, and danger areas occurs before a battle.  We do not have access to an S2 shop nor do we have overlays for our maps which identifies key terrain, obstacles, etc... so we have to do it in the game while we play.  A little common sense would be nice.

 

You have a point, but I think the other advantages the player has compared to a real commander (God view, better C3, etc) balances that out. 

[Pak40]

I think I can answer that - for the simple reason that your pixeltruppen will not do what soldiers could do in real life.  Re-position to get LOS/LOF for ther intended target.  Because they can't do that you need to check beforehand to see if they will actually be able to do what you want. 

 

Actually, you bring up a really good argument for it which I think Womble was also trying to say. IRL, troops will make those small adjustments to their movements in order to improve their LOS. However, in turn based Combat Mission, if your troops end their movement with no LOS to the target that you intended them to have then they got tthere, then you have to wait until next turn to move them over a bit.

 

 

What I have seen folks do that I won't is actually set up a scenario to test things before the do them in a game.  That is past the line for me.

 

That's way over the line for me. Did they do this in a multi-player game?

[MikeyD]

I doubt the modern army does detailed terrain analysis as described above every time a patrol walks down a road. Setting up bases and outposts, major operations - sure. But not for every farmhouse between the Kuwait border and Mosul.

 

A lot of players play the game from an elevated position, like a chess board (just watch the YouTube clips for examples of that). Sure, from 20 feet up and 20 feet back you're not going to have much of a clue about terrain features. That's not so much a fault of the game as a fault of your play style. Get down in the trenches. When you click a waypoint go to that location at ground level and see if there's a low hill blocking your LOS. Use the Mk1 eyeball for LOS tool.

[Bil Hardenberger]

I use the target tool at waypoints because it is absolutely necessary to ensure your movement is masked from enemy view... to make sure you can actually spot from the intended position.. also to apply area fire on suspected enemy positions during a movement, etc. and so on... and yes I use it to check the LOS from suspected or confirmed enemy positions to find safe areas... 

 

...in real life the driver (or guide in an infantry unit) would be able to ensure the unit movement was masked,,, the TC (or squad/team leader) would be able to command fire on suspected enemy positions and check LOS from certain positions as they move... none of this can you do yourself in the game except by using the target tool when plotting movement.  Think of it this way.. when you are plotting your movement you are actually doing the tasks that each member of your unit would be doing DURING the actual movement that you cannot do because each turn is hands off for 60 seconds.

 

...saying that you let them fire on their own without targeting from waypoints is really hamstringing your tactical flexibility and hey, that's entirely up to you.

 

My whole point is that what one person says is gamey another might see a deeper reason why it is not.

[WriterJWA]

I doubt the modern army does detailed terrain analysis as described above every time a patrol walks down a road. Setting up bases and outposts, major operations - sure. But not for every farmhouse between the Kuwait border and Mosul.

 

A lot of players play the game from an elevated position, like a chess board (just watch the YouTube clips for examples of that). Sure, from 20 feet up and 20 feet back you're not going to have much of a clue about terrain features. That's not so much a fault of the game as a fault of your play style. Get down in the trenches. When you click a waypoint go to that location at ground level and see if there's a low hill blocking your LOS. Use the Mk1 eyeball for LOS tool.

 

Lots of truth here. While the "by-the-book" method of executing a mission is to write a five-paragraph order and brief it to the squad/platoon over a well-crafted terrain model prior to rehearsals and the mission, most times squad leaders aren't even given a full order, just a orders fragment, then then decide routes, CP's, ORP's, etc., from their various maps (topographical, satellite, etc...).

 

I like to play it from ground level to about 20-30 feet up, especially when using vehicles, which requires a lot of micromanagement regarding terrain. Plus, I want to get at least a loose idea of what the troops on the ground will be able to see before I move them to a new spot.

[womble]

Get down in the trenches. When you click a waypoint go to that location at ground level and see if there's a low hill blocking your LOS. Use the Mk1 eyeball for LOS tool.

But be aware when you do so that you're not actually at the eye level of your pTruppen.

 

So use the Target tool, but be aware of that thing's restrictions too: you're assumed to be observing from the current height of the eyeballs you've got selected, and you're looking at a fixed height in the centre of the AS you're hovering your cursor over, not necessarily the height of something that's actually there.

 

Neither eyeballing nor the Target tool is perfect. Which is good, in some ways, because your pTruppen aren't either.

[Pak40]

I use the target tool at waypoints because it is absolutely necessary to ensure your movement is masked from enemy view... to make sure you can actually spot from the intended position.. also to apply area fire on suspected enemy positions during a movement, etc. and so on... and yes I use it to check the LOS from suspected or confirmed enemy positions to find safe areas... 

 

For sure, as discussed with womble and sburke, there are certain situations where the tool will make up limitations in the system. However, using the tool "to make sure you can actually spot from the intended position" can be gamey if you're not using it for the purpose of overcoming a game limitation. Unfortunately some (lots?) players use it in this manner.

 

 

 

saying that you let them fire on their own without targeting from waypoints is really hamstringing your tactical flexibility and hey, that's entirely up to you.

 

To each his own. I prefer to let my assaulting units choose their targets when approaching dangerous enemy positions. I learned the hard way a long time ago that restricting by covered arc or setting specific targets will get your assault teams killed. Nothing is more frustrating than watching an assault team get pummeled by a sudden and more dangerous threat while obliviously shooting the wrong way. There are exceptions to this rule like when I'm absolutely sure there wont be any surprises. I usually set target orders at the beginning of the turn. I probably have set targets from a waypoint before but not area fire, only on visible targets.

[John Kettler]

akd,

I have played the game, but nowhere nearly as much as I'd like to be able to. When I get CMH sorted out, I'll be PBEMing with SLIM, too. Nor does it follow that simply because I don't have much play experience it means I can't attack game issues from the standpoint of military analysis, known real world events, veterans' accounts and other means. I have clearly stated my views many times on what should be doable in CM: everything our forebears could. See, for example what I said on pushing ATGs and the case I made thereto, as well as the carefully documented arguments I've mounted in support of on-map Indirect fire from weapons such as the leIG 18 and the sIG-33. Also, I did much the same thing which helped make the case for reining in the previously unholy abilities of tanks to instantly spot and kill infantry close assaulting, something BFC subsequently did, to the considerable benefit of game realism. And since when do you get to decree I have no right to state my views? As long as I do so within the parameters of the Forum Rules, I can and shall. Best get used to it.

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited April 25, 2015 by John Kettler

[akd]

akd,

Nor does it follow that simply because I don't have much play experience it means I can't attack game issues from the standpoint of military analysis, known real world events, veterans' accounts and other means. I have clearly stated my views many times on what should be doable in CM: everything our forebears could. ...as well as the carefully documented arguments I've mounted in support of on-map Indirect fire from weapons such as the leIG 18 and the sIG-33.

 

Now this is getting amusing.  I'm sorry, but you need to spend less time constructing arguments and posting here, and more time playing the game.

Edited April 25, 2015 by akd

[Sublime]

Yeah.. John you should play more, then you.s know things like the LeIG 18 can do on map indirect fire. Finding a proper shooting angles difficult. I never use it, in fact if anything John on map indirect howitzer fire is all but useless because of map sizes and thered be much better uses of bfc.s time

[John Kettler]

akd and Sublime,

I just finished a QB, but it was for CMBS. Way after I was first involved in the leIG 18 and sIG 33 discussion, someone observed that, under certain conditions, the former was apparently firing indirectly. But I'm not talking about a fluke shot. I'm talking about the ability of these weapons to routinely fire at high enough trajectory that a typical map, never mind a CMRT monster, will permit on-map Indirect Fire. What is Rmin for the leIG 18? I raised this question before, and ArgusEye calculated, I believe, ~660 meters. That's short enough range to be able to fit even a very small CM map.

The le IG 18 has variable powder charges, allowing it to do exactly what a howitzer does: deliver fire on reverse slope positions and other targets regular artillery with its lower elevation limits, can't engage. But the leIG 18 can fire at elevations as high as 73 deg, something the howitzers can't quite do (66 deg) do, and the guns can't do at all (50 deg). The sIG 33 can also fire as high as 73 deg elevation and has multiple powder charges.

The two named items are important weapons for the Germans and deserve correct depiction of their capabilities. This true for these weapons in both towed and, in the case of the sIG 33, self-propelled configurations.

Regards,

John Kettler

[MikeyD]

Somewhat related to the Bulge topic - HAPPY VE DAY, EVERYBODY! April 8. I'm surprised nobody's mentioned it yet.

[c3k]

You meant "May"?

[CPC922]

Any news on this front?

[sburke]

Any news on this front?

Nah, all quiet in the Ardennes sector, no reason at all to expect an enemy attack.

Edited May 11, 2015 by sburke

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

Weather is going to be pretty socked in.  Should be a quiet Christmas.

[MikeyD]

I do wish I had the authority to post cool screenshots... but I don't. 

[kohlenklau]

How does the schwimmwagen look?

[John Kettler]

Nidan1,

 

I'm afraid you greatly misunderstand the brain circuits involved when I post vs when I play. Online research consists of two primary tasks. The first is artful selection of keywords. The second is of digging through the resulting haul, sometimes as much as 20 pages deep in a single search and extracting the desired items of information. I then take that and present it as part of whatever case I'm seeking to make. When I do research, I have total control of how much I do, how fast and to what level of detail. While I certainly do get affected by brain glitches and sheer exhaustion, as you've likely seen many times in my posts, and at times am too fried to even post at all, the simple truth is that those sorts of posts are, unless very long and complex, relatively undemanding of my brain. Contrast that with setup and play of the game. For a QB, I pick my forces automatically after choosing a category and let the computer do likewise. I've played with the force selection screens and found the display practically unreadable and the selection process far from easy. Consequently, it's either a QB or the smallest battle type available, where I have forces assigned already. So far, so good. There have been many times in which I opened up the map, took a look at what I was dealing with, went into overwhelm and got out of the game altogether. Too much to deal with! Other times, I get further in the process and position some of my forces, then can't cope. Or I might somehow have a series of miracles occur, get through setup and even play a few turns--before it again overloads my head. And when the stars all align, and I can somehow see them to be so in broad daylight, then I'm finally able to play a complete game. To my profound relief and joy. Unfortunately, that may be the last such occurrence for months!  You can figure out how long that's been by reading about my last QB over on the CMBS Forum. 

Any kind of CMx2 game demands not merely vastly more of my brain, but it requires a whole additional set of processing areas. These are the ones which handle temporospatial, sequencing, geometric and other issues, many of which are soft, fuzzy or both. I'm pretty sure this all goes on in the other brain hemisphere, in fact. Research and posting are relatively static neural activities. Wargaming is something altogether different. Now, my brain has to figure out what goes were to begin with, how to organize my force, assess the situation, plan my moves, then commit and see what has or hasn't happened. I have to then review the turn, often, several times, grok what has happened, figure everything out from scratch, taking into account a host of complex interactions, timing, force status, troop status, effects of damage, casualties or morale hits, then do it again. For me, this usually, not always, involves 30 turns of pushing my brain somewhere between hard to breaking point, as the situation becomes ever more chaotic, with more and more moving parts in play. The last QB I fought, it went to a "kill me now" utterly draining 40 turns. I play when I can, as long as I can. For I never know when I'll be able to summon the necessary specialized brain function to play again.

 

The above challenges (what a fabulous euphemism) would doubtless be enough to test or break your sanity, but that's not the whole story. There's also the learning curve. Since I can't play very often, such expertise as I acquire is subject to rapid decay over time. This means I practically have to keep relearning the game, or at least the skills beyond the bare basics. Very frustrating!  I'd love to be able to get into PBEM, and SLIM and I have been doing the Audie Murphy autobiography title so far in trying to get there for a CMBN game (figuring out, in the face of maddening, even unexplainable problems, with lots of coaching from him and Tech Support, how to get the setup into the right part of the game, getting the setup, not the alias, into the Inbox folder, learning CMH, etc.). SLIM and I haven't even begun to get into CMH, which I have downloaded.

 

Now, throw into the mix an ever changing set of cyber issues, most having to do with a maddeningly random, in all sorts of ways, internet connection. Despite doing everything I could think of (reset browser, restart browser, flush system and run virus test, turn of, turn and reboot the computer), I went through nearly 24 hours of cyber torture in Safari, tried Firefox, found it worked marginally, then tried Chrome. that worked okay but not great. that's how I was able to do what I did on the CMBS Forum, until Chrome, too, packed it in while being down, many times to zero data rate. At that point, I gave up. I picked up Bill Mauldin's excellent Up Front, read it cover to cover, then went to bed. 

 

Unsurprisingly, I find suggestions/cracks/veritable demands from you, jointly and severally, that I should play more and post less, play and not post, stop posting, since I don't know the game and such both galling and insulting. Also, I've explained several times what happened to me that made an already tough situation for me vastly worse. Several years ago, I learned I had a lifelong condition, one in which I and others who have it tend to go deer in the headlights when in high stress situations, information overload or both. This condition has been in no way improved by hyper stress, multiple assaults on my person, four car wrecks, none my fault, the last two of which each put me out of commission for a year. This sort of damage is cumulative and doesn't get better with age. There are many other negative die roll modifiers I could name, but let's keep it simple, okay? Horrendous crash move, conducted under murderous heat and humidity with a crazy roommate. Who through his idiocy, manages to pesticide poison me. That was Night One. Night Two found me in the head around 5 AM, with the hall light on. I come out of the head at a good clip, fully expecting the light to be on. It wasn't, since he turned it off in his energy saving mania. I was dazzled, the spill light from the bathroom didn't hit the wall corner between the bathroom and my bedroom. Not good! I hit the wall corner at a 45 degree angle, immediately in front of my right ear. So tremendous was the blow that in the instant of impact, I thought I'd both ruptured that eardrum and cracked my skull. Instead, I broke my brain in a contre coup injury (brain hit right, then bounced left, hitting inside of left skull), triggering a brain bleed so extensive that I became so decoupled from reality that I wasn't even sure whether I was alive or dead. Try calling for help when in that state! I finally did get through to someone, had to wait four hours for a doctor (never get injured after 10 PM, for hardly anyone's in the ER), and when they finally did image my brain, they found a huge brain bleed. It was so bad I narrowly escaped neurosurgery. That is what you so ignorantly referred to as my "claimed neuorological" condition. That single blow wrought havoc on both cognitive function and memory, both quite useful generally and in the game! Remember, this was on top of everything else I was dealing with. That Traumatic Brain Injury occurred early July, 2011, and though I'm much better, it affects me to this day. In terms of effects, imagine a game show in which there is a group of wheels. One covers memory, another cognitive function, another faculties. "Step right up, sir. Learn what your day will be like today!" Except I don't know until I start experiencing said day.

 

One day, I might have pretty good memory, enough cognitive function to post, but might be having problems understanding what someone says to me. Another day might find me with so little short term memory it takes three trips downstairs in order to get what I went there for to begin with, read only cognitive function and audio cortex processing issues. The next day might find me with halfway decent memory, the ability to get various mental tasks, maybe even gaming, done, but no real sense of smell. Or it might be major difficulty talking clearly.  There are more wheels and nuances I didn't cover, but this should give you some sense of what I'm up against. And let's not forget the people who grotesquely abuse me while flouting the Forum Rules, people so callous they won't stop even when I tell them they are compromising my health because of the terrible stress they cause me. People whose attacks have been so vicious that on occasion they've even caused me to lose ground in my recovery! 

 

Given all of the above, I would dearly love to know it it is even remotely rational for anyone here to expect, still less demand, I play more CMx2 wargames? I would if I could, not just because I enjoy doing so, but because playing them is a great way to help alleviate stress. Unsurprisingly, given what I've said to you, the more stress is applied to me here, the less able I am to play the games at all. Yet, despite everything I have to deal with, I welcome newcomers, help where I can, actively participate in a range of open threads, do the OP thing, make suggestions and more. I do these things while ever having to remain anally retentive about what I say, how I say it and how strongly. I can't afford to let my tormentors bait me into saying or doing something prohibited, things they do with impunity. I can't so much as mention certain topics or personal activities. And no matter how horrific the attacks on me, no matter how outright damaging, I'm the one who, despite all his debilities, has to keep his cool and remain ever the gentleman. So bad have things become that several other Members have called out the hellish trio, for Admin (not Steve) is doing nothing to stop them. Not so much as a syllable of reproof. They dance flamenco on my supine battered head, but all that ever happens to them is that the thread gets locked. No worries, though, for there's always another thread in which they can do the exact same evil things to me! Which I'm sure includes downvoting every post I make. One of them, recall, was caught upvoting his own posts after Members downvoted them.

 

(moves on)

 

Coming full circle, I've always found the Bulge fascinating. I used to play some SPI game in which the attacking Germans got a 3 x multiplier in the first turn, representing effects of artillery and surprise. As the Germans, the glory days tended to go away all too soon, and I couldn't believe how difficult a nut Bastogne was. In game terms, I think we now need the ability to blow up bridges during the game. The historical accounts on this are quite clear. Time and again one of Peiper's columns would finally be about to take a bridge and cross it, only to have the seemingly omnipresent US combat engineers  demo it in his face. Such demolitions shouldn't be certainties, either, for what inn battle is? We also need the 90mm AAG and, I believe, 105s (?) and 155s on the map, for they were there were there and in action. Additionally, we need the ability to deploy hasty minefields, as was also done historically. Am sure I remember reading about US AT mines being set on the roads and covered with bazookas as hasty roadblocks. Working Schwimmwagens and Weasels would be most helpful, with the latter very useful for mud slogs, not just in the Bulge, but for later games in Huertgen Forest. US will definitely need 57 mm and 3-inch ATGs, for both were there. TDs may or may not have field expedient or kit roof armor. But to keep our priorities straight, what must be handled correctly are sheets. Good Belgian sheets! Whether draping OD AFVs or freezing GIs, these things are important and deserve lots of BFC love. Who's with me?  And, yes, this post took a lot of time and thought.

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

Edited May 12, 2015 by John Kettler

[sburke]

holy crap, I think that is the Mother of all posts!

[LukeFF]

John, seriously, we don't need a magnus opus about your gaming habits or your personal life. 

[c3k]

Okay, what I gathered from that was NOT to assume that the lights are on, but to look, first.

[Thewood1]

I just popped in to see if there was any news...I think I am maybe my IQ just dropped.

[John Kettler]

sburke,

 

Part of that was another aspect of the lifelong condition I mentioned, as well as a real need to be heard, but also what Pascal said about writing a short letter. The singleminded focus you've seen me exhibit many times served me very well as a military analyst, but it was one my bosses had to train me to rein in because, left to my own devices, I might well have dug the investigation hole clear to China. All well and good, but there are these things called schedules and budgets which have to be factored in. Since I've now said what I felt long needed saying, you probably won't be seeing the post equivalent of a Tolstoy novel any time soon! 

 

c3k,

 

More like everything I do is in spite of the things listed. If I could count on even one good day a week, it would change everything. Am talking not merely in CM but would radically improve my life, including my economy. For now, though, I can't. How I wish I could just sit down and play CM! You have no idea how fortunate you are in that regard. If there is good news in all this, over and above helping the Forumites understand the man behind the posts, it's that I'm in the beginning stages of a heavy duty TBI workup (leapt through many hoops to get to it) and that some specialized supplements I'm taking, over and above a whopping B Complex dose and my other vitamins and such, seem to be helping. Mental acuity has improved, likewise sleep and energy. Am therefore cautiously optimistic that once I figure out/am taught how to use CMH, SLIM and I may actually get to play a PBEM. This'll be my first since I got the game in 2012. Wish SLIM and myself luck!

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

[BLSTK]

@ John Kettler

 

Having a father who never gained access to his own emotions, I can appreciate your efforts to enlighten us about your personal challenges. I dare say it is something we, as males, rarely summon the courage to do. And writing about it in the Forum is both cathartic and empowering for you. Consider this a form of communal therapy. 

 

Those who are quick to criticize you would do well to channel that negative energy into something resembling empathy rather than scorn. Because a post describing one man's plight is really the story of the human condition. What has happened to you could happen to any one of us at any moment.

 

Remember this: John Kettler at 50% is still better than most of us at 100%.

Edited May 12, 2015 by BLSTK