AAR-AXIS - Clearing the Niscemi Highway

[snake_eye]

@Bil

Things seem to work the way you planned them. I understand better your close spoiler remark you addressed me at an earlier time, when I described the way to approach and reach the Villa summit and the smoke barrage advice.

I enjoy very much the way you are dealing tactically speaking in that battle. After the high losses, if I remind it correctly, while moving toward the orchard with the Italians and their “tankettes” you have changed your plans. You made a survey of the field and the possibilities it offered both as concealment and rapid deployment. KT4 and its gully was the best it provided.

I don’t know what you have in mind for the other side of the Villa, but if I have some ideas like others, I shall wait to see the outcome. Nothing is really granted in that game, till the end of a battle.

@John Kettler

Despite all the data that could be read about Sherman versus PZ IV, the Sherman is generally inferior to the PZ IV in term of killing power. That from the beginning in Lybia all the way up to nearly the end of the war. Both tanks were up graded all the way. That is true for the armor and the guns.

The 76mm gun(Firefly) was however the one able to match the PZ IV in killing power and even the Panther. I will leave aside the Jumbo, since it was made available at the end of 1944 and in fair number.

Peoples have a certain tendency to analyse data, which is correct and to rely on them, without taking, in account the others aspects that make a tank good. That is mobility (tracks width and engine power), gun traversing speed, engine and transmission reliabilities, crew efficiency, without forgetting the fuel being used. That is gasoline and or diesel. Remember the Sherman being dubbed by the Amis “Ronson”.

These comments are backed by what I have read, learn and seen long years ago, besides German tanks and others that could be seen by engineers. I had the opportunities to see others PZ IV captured in Syria (slightly damaged) by the Israelis and brought back to France with more recent Russian tanks (coming from Egypt battlefields)) to be investigated technically.

That is why I wrote earlier that I was surprised to see that the PZ IV was not a match in that particular scenario against the Sherman, while I played it. I have also found that in other CMFI scenarios.

However, to be fair Bil disposed of the Shermans without having to sustain PZ IV losses, if I am correct. That might surely have something to do with the tactical ability of the player.

The same was true for a Sherman and or PZ IV crew.

Cheer

[John Kettler]

snake_eye,

I agree that the Panzer IV, for the time period covered, did have a gun advantage when it came to penetration, but the Sherman, precisely because it lacked the long, necked powerful cartridge of the German 75, had an ROF advantage with its short, straight cased 75mm rounds, and it had faster traverse.

The U.S. 76mm was in no way a 17-pounder. Was it a major improvement over the short 75mm? Absolutely. But the 76mm was NOT in the same league as the 17-pounder, for which a better analog would be the Panther's cannon.

Lucky you to have had the opportunity to see all that hardware up close! Got any pics? All I've seen of Syrian ex-German stuff were pics of a couple of rusting hulks on the Golan Heights. Had no idea technical exploitation teams recovered largely intact specimens! At Saumur now?

This thread is not about the M4A1 vs. a Panzer IV/G, but it does have some comparative data on the M4A3 vs. the Panzer IV/H. The Achilles heel of the Panzer IV was and remained the weak turret front armor, a problem which couldn't be fixed because of both turret balance and the power of the traversing motor issues. The tanks and crews suffered accordingly. Something the games don't model, that I know of, was the German, flashless, smokeless propellant, which the American tankers said made things very difficult for them.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=65393&start=15

Regards,

John Kettler

[Bil Hardenberger]

@Bil

Things seem to work the way you planned them. I understand better your close spoiler remark you addressed me at an earlier time, when I described the way to approach and reach the Villa summit and the smoke barrage advice.

Well the run up to The Hill objective worked as planned... the truck casualty on the other side was not part of the plan but really that would not have happened if my Grilles had laid their smoke screens the turn before like they were supposed to, but sh*t happens.

I enjoy very much the way you are dealing tactically speaking in that battle. After the high losses, if I remind it correctly, while moving toward the orchard with the Italians and their “tankettes” you have changed your plans. You made a survey of the field and the possibilities it offered both as concealment and rapid deployment. KT4 and its gully was the best it provided.

I never had the intention that the attack through the orchard with the Italians was going to be the main attack. I was hoping to attrit ND's forces and ascertain his locations. They did that just fine before I pulled them off.. but at much higher cost than I expected. Still I have a lot of Italians left and they are ready to absorb any attack on the Orchard ND might throw at them.. like the Infantry Platoon down slope from them.

I don’t know what you have in mind for the other side of the Villa, but if I have some ideas like others, I shall wait to see the outcome. Nothing is really granted in that game, till the end of a battle.

Guess you'll have to wait and see eh?

Truthfully I haven't really decided what I am going to do once I get to the Villa.. it is all going to depend on what I find there. I expect some infantry on the back slope of the Villa (maybe a Platoon of infantry, perhaps some MG teams. I don't know.. I've only seen a few FOW infantry icons so it could be anything).

I also expect to see the second T30 and another halftrack that I have yet to see but is part of the T30 platoon.. I can't imagine that platoon (the two T30's) would come in without their HQ vehicle.

Also... ND still has two very alive Shermans.. each of which have been hit twice.. but I have no clue what kind of damage has been done to them. They could be crippled, or they could be just fine.. regardless they are still dangerous.

Fun times ahead for sure.

[BigDork]

Bil,

Puts the "A" in assault--uphill no less! Shermans in your battle seem to be highly resilient, but this is nowhere nearly the case in BigDork vs Tiresias. What seems to be generally true is that there are far fewer outright brew-ups in CMx2 than there were in CMx1.

Regards,

John Kettler

Tell me about it! I would have loved for my Sherman to have been able to absorb multiple hits.

Great AAR Bil, I'm really enjoying it immensely. It's great watching your plan come together.

[Bil Hardenberger]

Puts the "A" in assault--uphill no less!

Love seeing a plan come together. Nice work.

Great AAR Bil, I'm really enjoying it immensely. It's great watching your plan come together.

Heh.. thanks.. hopefully the wheels won't come off when contact is made.

[snake_eye]

@John Kettler

I agree with you John. 76mm for the US Sherman and 17 pounder for the English Sherman. Smokeless propellant used by the Germans has been a problem during all the war. US and English Tankers but also Infantrymen were revealed while firing by the smoke, not their enemy.

Sorry the only pictures I had made at the time were the ones of the tanks loaded on flat railway cars and being sent to Saumur. They were stocked earlier in the Satory AMX design center. These pictures and other goodies were lost (rather thrown in a dump) at a later time by my wife. That’s life!

To want to learn about the other side has always been a necessity. A friend of mine (20 years older than I am) told me that while an Intelligence officer in the British army in Berlin just in the months following the end of the war, one of his officer wanted absolutely to get details about the Stalin tank and its armor. Having known that few of them destroyed, were still left on the Russian side, he went there stealthily to recover some sample of that armor steel and possibly other details the Germans had not been able to detailed faith fully to him. He never came back. A bit later while they had a meeting, followed with a dinner with the Russians;, their commander made a toast and gave a small box to the English commanding officer, telling him simply, you will love it. In it, he found a piece of metal. That was how things were sometimes done at the beginning of what was to be the cold war.

@Bil

God save the PZ IV Beware of the vineyards on the other side. Not that your guys will get all the grapes, but they will have difficulties moving through as well as the tanks.

Read my posts about the frame rate and graphic problems made by vineyards

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=106196

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=106256

[Vanir Ausf B]

snake_eye,

I agree that the Panzer IV, for the time period covered, did have a gun advantage when it came to penetration, but the Sherman, precisely because it lacked the long, necked powerful cartridge of the German 75, had an ROF advantage with its short, straight cased 75mm rounds, and it had faster traverse.

Although not relevant to tank vs. tank engagements it should be noted that the Sherman 75mm HE round was also significantly more powerful than that of the Pz IV.

[John Kettler]

Vanir Ausf B,

And that delta between German 75mm HE performance and the American 75mm HE is almost certainly attributable to lower fill ratio as a consequence of much higher G loads on the shell body, which translate into thicker walls, thus, reduced shell internal volume. The same thing can be seen in the game when using M10s as HE chuckers.

Regards,

John Kettler

[noob]

They did that just fine before I pulled them off.

:eek:........is that a new order ?

[Bil Hardenberger]

Friendly Order of Battle - Status Update

While we wait for ND to return the next turn I thought I would revisit my friendly and enemy order of battle (OB) analysis.

Here is the friendly unit status as of the end of the last turn:

Enemy OB and status (as I know it) will follow later.

[Bil Hardenberger]

The Thirty Eighth Minute

Right at the end of the turn my Pz-IV from across the map spotted and knocked out the last remaining howitzer. They were brave and efficient but had to go.

I'm starting to get nervous by how quickly the smoke seems to be dissipating... suddenly it is very clear right in front of the Villa.

On my extreme left my Pz-IV has yet to spot ND's Sherman parked on the hill in front of the Villa... I want this tank to take out the Sherman, but I also want to keep it from getting too far in front of the infantry. I would like them to spot the enemy tank first, then I can maneuver against it.. I'm not even sure it is still on this hillside. Blue circle marks the last known location.

So I am going to stop this tank in position, perhaps even pull it back over the edge of the hill a bit.. and screen with my infantry units.

While my Pz-IV was engaging ND's pack howitzer his Sherman got a spot on him and fired off a round.. this one was intercepted by the trees as can be seen by the puff in front of my tank.

Next turn while the Sherman and Pz-IV duel (I will be pulling my tank back into the trees a bit for added cover) I plan on a risky move... rushing my Pz-III forward in the hopes of getting a side shot on the Sherman.

I haven't given the order yet.. so I reserve the right to cancel this maneuver.

[Hister]

Maybe I'm wrong but I think you current success made you too bold - for it's a bold move to move Pz-III in such a way. Maybe too irrational? But then again if it weren't for your boldness you would not be in front of the villa now.

[MikeyD]

My thought on the 'bold PzIII' is a PzIII holed from 400m is just a dead as a PzIII holed from 40, the primary difference is from 40m your own gun has some chance of penetrating the Sherman.

[Bil Hardenberger]

Well I haven't made my orders for the next turn yet and I'm torturing myself over that potential move by the Pz-III.

Still haven't decided. . I'll sleep on it.

[Boche]

Yeah ive noticed, smoke screens dissapate so quickly. Is this realistic?

[Bil Hardenberger]

boche, the wind is blowing it pretty hard. There is another patch of smoke in the trees on The Hill objective (where ND's Sherman popped smoke) that will pass in front of the Villa in the next few turns so it will still be obscured.

By the way guys, I decided to NOT make the move with the Pz-III against ND's Sherman, for two reasons: 1) There are still 35 105mm artillery rounds to fall and I do not want to lose a tank to it, and 2) my original intent for this tank was to support the infantry and I do not want to get distracted from that at this point.

I will have to let other assets engage it.

[c3k]

By the way guys, I decided to NOT make the move with the Pz-III against ND's Sherman, for two reasons: 1) There are still 35 105mm artillery rounds to fall and I do not want to lose a tank to it, and 2) my original intent for this tank was to support the infantry and I do not want to get distracted from that at this point.

I will have to let other assets engage it.

Bah! You are weak. Your lack of fortitude will result in defeat. A battle is a test of WILL, not a test of tactics. A TRUE commander would order the PzIII crew to DISMOUNT and advance upon the enemy Sherman armed with only their sidearms and crowbars. With furious energy and implacable resolve, the 5 crewmembers, eschewing the protection of the Krupp steel armored PzIII and exposing themselves to the dangers of the battlefield, clambering upon the Sherman, prising open the hatches, gunning down the Ami crewmembers, would, indeed, cast an ominous foreshadow of defeat over the American forces. Seeing this, they would beg for mercy.

You have cast this aside.

[Michael Emrys]

Dear, dear me. Someone needs to cut back on their testosterone injections just a little.

Michael

[Andrew H.]

Bah! You are weak. Your lack of fortitude will result in defeat. A battle is a test of WILL, not a test of tactics. A TRUE commander would order the PzIII crew to DISMOUNT and advance upon the enemy Sherman armed with only their sidearms and crowbars. With furious energy and implacable resolve, the 5 crewmembers, eschewing the protection of the Krupp steel armored PzIII and exposing themselves to the dangers of the battlefield, clambering upon the Sherman, prising open the hatches, gunning down the Ami crewmembers, would, indeed, cast an ominous foreshadow of defeat over the American forces. Seeing this, they would beg for mercy.

You have cast this aside.

We also need a "fix bayonets" and a "charge" command.

[MikeyD]

CMBB had a 'Human Wave' command.

[Andrew H.]

CMBB had a 'Human Wave' command.

That was my favorite!

[Erwin]

I remember that Human Wave command. But, never figured out how to use it effectively, so never used it. Would have been useful in the massive 3 battalions+ per side CMBB tourny am in right now.

For all its sophistication compared to CM1 I am continually amazed at how many good/useful commands features were removed like MOVE TO CONTACT, movable waypoints etc. I guess they are slowly being put back in. But, why were they removed in the first place?

[Bil Hardenberger]

Enemy Order of Battle - Status Update

As promised yesterday, here is what I know about the enemy order of battle (OB). Orange entries indicate suspected but not yet identified units.

This is current as of the last turn:

[Baneman]

Dang Bil, you're even more of a micromanager than I am - I like what I see, but I don't think I'd go so far as to write it all down, I just go with the feel of the battle.

Then again, it's clearly paying off for you. Maybe I should get more organised ( I hear my opponents groan )

[dan/california]

That was your wife, pondering even more CM.