LongLeftFlank Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 'Course you're assuming the very first notice the Sherman crew had was the shell whistling by. But that said, most folks here generally agree that tanks are preternaturally aware of their surroundings. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 I find the encounter quite perplexing, the reaction times and accuracy of the M4 are more akin to a SF M1. The PzIV is initiating and the M4 reacting to the first attack, yet the German crews firing cycle is slower! The M4 reacts to the first miss, most humans take 1-2 seconds to process new information, whereas the PzIV crew is working on muscle memory, which by it's nature has little sensory input lag (hence the wax on wax off training such crews went through). One of my long standing pet peeves. Tanks react as if they were a single living breathing organism instead of 4 or 5 individuals having to communicate information with each other. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 It seems to me that people might be making too much a single instance that might be an extreme outlier. Running the turn through ten times might result in the Panzer getting off its second shot before the Sherman reacts, or the Sherman reacts but misses also. ...most folks here generally agree that tanks are preternaturally aware of their surroundings. That I would agree with. Something in the way that tank spotting is calculated might need a tweak. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 No matter how many times you re-run the turn the Sherman will always react the instant it spots the Pz IV. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted September 30, 2012 Author Share Posted September 30, 2012 I will only say that the Sherman turret began to turn immediately when my round sailed overhead. That reaction did seem pretty damned fast. Granted I was very close (64m) but could they have really heard my tank fire, or would they in reality even have noticed the round missing high? Sh*t happens, all of this really just adds to the chaos.. strange things happen in a battle... I just chock it up to friction and hope that next time my tank actually takes aim before it fires off a round. That attack against the Sherman was supposed to be with both Pz-IVs by the way.. but my other tank got hung up in the woods and never got close to its intended attack position... if it had this would have all been moot. War is a series of catastrophes which result in victory. Albert Pike Bil 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vark Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Do German tanks respond with equal vigour and accuracy? If yes, then a tweak maybe needed, if no, then I guess my European paranoia creeps in. On the record, I firmly believe it is the former, and aquisition and reaction routines need to be slowed down, perhaps fuzzy logic could be added. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Looking at screenies, we don't know the relative experience of the crews, which will have an impact. Given the incredibly short range at which this encounter appears to have occurred, the gunner may not have needed any fine tuning... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slysniper Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 That tanks reaction time is not unusual for the game, and no it is not just american tanks that get that quick reaction. In general. tanks react instantly once they see something. I have seen them spot another tank moving behind a tall hedge or bocage and their turret will immediatly follow along the path and be able to fire and hit on a shot that in R.L. would be gone and passed before the spotter in the tank could even say a word to anyone else. No, if the game wants to be more realistic. they need to build in a couple of seconds of communication time before a tank can respond to a new target.once spotted, that is all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted October 1, 2012 Author Share Posted October 1, 2012 The Forty Fourth Minute The wheels are starting to come off the bus on this one... ND has his two remaining Shermans in excellent positions and punishes me with them this turn. From across the map ND's Sherman takes out my last remaining R35, which was doing nothing more harmful than putting a few rounds into his troops in the Villa. I sent a Pz-III to the backside of the Villa in search of ND's T30.. it finds it facing away, and its a fat juicy target. Unfortunately... the tank also spots a mortar team sitting in the open, freaks out, hits reverse, popping smoke as it moved... at the end of the turn it had not fired a round at the T30, it loses the spot to that enemy vehicle when it get hits by a bazooka round from the Villa. No casualties, minor damage, but it is now rattled and could be a sitting duck to a hunting Bazooka team or ND's T30. I really think the gods are not on my side in this scenario.. here is more proof. I send my Pz-IV against ND's Sherman in front of the Villa... that Sherman is buttoned, and its turret is facing towards its front... at 46:31 my panzer is creeping to the Sherman's deep flank... at 46:27 the Sherman spots my tank and starts to slew its turret... at 46:23 the Sherman fires and penetrates my tank... this causes a casualty and delays any return fire... at 46:16 the Sherman hits my tank again, this hit kills my tank. Should I call foul? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hister Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Oh damn it! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vark Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Sorry Bill, substitute referees seem to have infested your game, making dodgy calls! Although anecdotal, tanks do seem to perform as sentient organisms, so are able to go through the OODA loop at unrealistic speeds, precluding historical tactics. The tanks in SF are quite frankly a joke, able to react instantly to any threat, whether buttoned or closed, out of or in arc. BF do sumfink! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Just to be devil's advocate here. Considering the round is loaded and the distance is not particularly great. - it took four seconds to slew the turret around and fire. Having no experience in a tank especially a WW2 tank, how long should it take? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baneman Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Just to be devil's advocate here. Considering the round is loaded and the distance is not particularly great. - it took four seconds to slew the turret around and fire. Having no experience in a tank especially a WW2 tank, how long should it take? I too, have no experience in this matter, but it seems : After the 4 second turret turn, it stopped perfectly aligned - I would expect a moment of fine tuning of the aim. It also has perfect elevation - that should also take a moment, probably not as long as the left-right adjustment. And after all that, the next question is : for the PzIV, how long does it take to extract a shell casing, slam in a new one and adjust elevation down a tad ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 And after all that, the next question is : for the PzIV, how long does it take to extract a shell casing ... Did the PzIV have a semi-automatic breech? If it did then that step, at least, is 'free'. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 By war's end Sherman crews became known for being 'quick draw' experts, able to put three rounds into an opponent before they could get their first round off. I doubt that skill had been quite so finely honed in Sicily 1943, though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 ...against opponents who were increasingly undertrained kids. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 From across the map ND's Sherman takes out my last remaining R35, which was doing nothing more harmful than putting a few rounds into his troops... Heh. You can see how he might kinda resent that. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted October 1, 2012 Author Share Posted October 1, 2012 I received this from ND... Also, I've received two emails now about my magical immobilized Sherman that can spot and kill everything it sees. I think the people who are concerned about this behavior are not looking at the full picture. Go back and look through this scenario, even the last turn (Allied side), and you'll see plenty of examples of tanks being blind and dumb. Two of my Shermans were lost without ever firing a shot or doing anything useful. The immobilized Sherman has mostly killed targets directly to its front. The last Panzer IV it killed, it was anticipating because I had ordered a cover armor arc in precisely that direction, since I knew Bil's tank would come from there. For whatever the reason the turret wasn't pointed straight at it, but they definitely had orders to look in that direction. You'll notice that that same Sherman tank is not spotting all the Luftwaffe infantry on the Castelletti Hill objective. It's easy to notice when things occur beyond the norm, it takes some attention to note when they are working as expected. I admit my tank was moving and his was stationary.. thus his should have spotted better. Bil 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted October 2, 2012 Author Share Posted October 2, 2012 The Forty Fifth Minute - Part 1 The bazooka team is spotted by my infantry team and quickly eliminated. ND has an infantry squad crest the ridge above my HQ team and in seconds my team is wiped out... they had been distracted by the enemy crew in the background of this image and never saw the team above them. They are re-payed in kind as my tank and follow on infantry start to attrit them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted October 2, 2012 Author Share Posted October 2, 2012 The Forty Fifth Minute - Part 2 I had another dual mode attack going against ND's right most Sherman this turn... I have a Pz-IV in the woods (no spot yet) and an infantry team with a rifle grenade advance. The infantry team spots the Sherman (can hardly miss it at this range), settles in and fires off their only rifle grenade. Penetration.,.. but I have no clue what the result actually is... Actually I lie.. I do know the result as ND told me in an email This Sherman is KOed. This is interesting.. it seems that ND has pulled the infantry platoon that has been sitting in the orchard for 20 minutes or so and appears to be setting up a base of fire on my infantry on the Hill objective. I think they can expect a counter-attack very soon. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hister Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Ah, again the war luck turns in Bil's favour! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heinrich505 Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Bil, This is like a rollercoaster ride. One minute you are up, the next down. It is a really a great read. Nice use of the rifle grenade.... . Mine don't seem to work as well... Keep up the action. This is like watching two prizefighters pounding each other with body blows. Great stuff. Heinrich505 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Bil, I understand the why of the grid mod, but it does make for rather jarring screenshots. The cut up squad on the hill looks like it's atop a slightly upheaved concrete slab. Amazing the way this battle continues to go back and forth! Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 Bil, I understand the why of the grid mod, but it does make for rather jarring screenshots. The cut up squad on the hill looks like it's atop a slightly upheaved concrete slab. I blame that on ND's crappy map making skills.. Amazing the way this battle continues to go back and forth! Regards, John Kettler I agree... this damned battle is really messing with my emotions... I was ready to call the whole thing off after I lost my 4th armored vehicle in two turns... but now I am getting the confidence back. But I have learned patience with this one too.. every time I start to get ahead of myself and careless ND snaps me back to reality. Bil 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 Bil, Nice use of the rifle grenade.... . Mine don't seem to work as well... Heinrich505 Surprised me too.. I had little hope for that result and the main attacker was supposed to be my panzer.. but I'll take it! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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