Artkin Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 (edited) Four vehicles immobilized within 700m of the corner starting zone. One mtlb, one bmp-3, two t-90a. Everything except the bmp-3 was set to "normal" speed. Bmp-3 was set to "Quick". This is completely insane, why haven't you guys fixed this yet. This isnt fun, nor is it realistic, it's a joke. Edited March 21 by Artkin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halmbarte Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 Save game? H 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 LOL stop driving your stuff in mucky places. I am unaware of any bugs related to bogging so I do not think there is anything to fix man. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony P. Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 Bit hard to judge without knowing the ground conditions, innit? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackal2100 Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 That is also a large amount of vehicles. To only have 4 bog out of all of that isn't particularly bad, especially cross-country. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtHatred Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 Combat Mission does a really bad job of telling you anything about the terrain, so often you don't know what you are driving on, but I've definitely seen things like Churchills and T-90s get bogged and immobilized in places they shouldn't. Try light snow for the Churchill and watch them all get stuck. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warts 'n' all Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 Perhaps the OP might like to fix his Caps Lock. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Joch Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 Bogging in CMx2 has always been on the light side. I worked on a scenario for the last CMFB module and set the ground conditions as “muddy” to force players to stay on the roads, but even when the AI moved AFVs cross country, there was very little bogging. To minimize chances of bogging, 1) check the off-road rating; 2) check the ground conditions and 3) watch your speed. The faster you go off-road, the greater the chances of bogging. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 The Ukraine war has rather vindicated the bogging model, actually. At certain times of the year you just don't want go on a drive through the countryside. In the game go to the menu and look at 'Conditions'. If terrain is labeled as 'muddy' you're in for a hard time. If its labeled 'wet' you're in for a slightly less hard time. I've learned to aim for safer patches of ground - hopping from hard ground tiles to rocky ground tiles. I made a flooded 'muddy' ground map for CMFB module. But the flooded road has gravel tiles beneath it so bogging is rare if you stick to the road. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurian52 Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 So I think this isn't so much a case of Combat Mission incorrectly modeling reality, as yet another case of people having incorrect expectations of reality. Just like all the spotting complaints. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thewood1 Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 There are players that go on and on about wanting realism. But then anything close to realism smacks them in the face and suddenly its not fun any more. Recent spotting and bogging discussions are front of mind. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 Bogging a good test scenario is a 'Muddy Affair'. Once you played a scenario go back and use it for testing. Bogging in that scenario, last time one Sherman exactly got immobilized. After 10 more times the result was the same. I figured out an 'unbogging' drill. Go back and play and experiment various scenarios. Same with 'Battle for Normandy. I went back to the tutorial with the three trucks scenario. I found out about spotting just by playing it on 'Iron'. Don't rush to die in the more difficult scenarios. I get sick having arguments about my methods test and find it out yourself about which drill you need to use. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 You (almost) never see blizzards in CM scenarios, or dense fog, or moonless overcast nights, or moonless nights with dense fog on muddy ground because some condition just aren't all that fun to try to play in. Not to say having your men stumbling through a monsoon or a blizzard can't be entertaining as a demonstration scenario. But you wouldn't want to make a regular habit of it. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted March 22 Author Share Posted March 22 12 hours ago, A Canadian Cat - was IanL said: LOL stop driving your stuff in mucky places. I am unaware of any bugs related to bogging so I do not think there is anything to fix man. Dude you think this is my first game? The ground conditions are set to very dry. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted March 22 Author Share Posted March 22 (edited) If bogging was THIS bad the PROKHOROVKA OFFENSIVE would have completely petered out within 11km judging by how many tanks I lost. They didnt use roads and they didnt lose 9% of their tanks every 700m to the ground conditions. Come on guys. Really...? Edit: Forgot that this was in a different game as I'm playing two pbems on the map currently in cmrt. This is from cmpe so I can't provide a turn. Instead I can provide the map and a small scenario for cmrt. The statistics remain true though, 2 mbts lost for 23 moved. Edited March 22 by Artkin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted March 22 Author Share Posted March 22 (edited) Theres absolute nothing special about the scenario, play as germans. The same rate of loss will occur within 2km from the start line. The bogging rates in this game are not based on reality. If you doubt it, look at the operational map, toe and loss rates of the prokhorovka fighting. Of the dozens of publications I've read/listened to - bogging has never been mentioned (Except one time during the dniepr offensive? when a soviet tank corps lost 90% of its vehicles to breakdowns over a couple hundred km march). While I do believe it should be in game, the rate is ridiculous at times. https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/23frsllsqwzevkgz138ah/001-IISS-AI.btt?rlkey=jcucmm1zj2b9vq1w36fazpnqe&dl=0 Edited March 22 by Artkin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 1 hour ago, Artkin said: The ground conditions are set to very dry. Vehicles also bog in the desert. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 It is not uncommon for a map maker to accidentally place terrain that bogs vehicles accidentally. In CM1 it was much easier to tell terrain types apart. In CM2 it can all look very similar. Had a similar situation in one of Paper Tiger's maps (very dry desert) and he was able to replace the boggy terrain that had been accidentally placed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 I had a coworker long ago who was an old WWII Pacific jungle fighter. After spending years island fighting he pulled a Yossarian and decided he wanted to survive the war. He hit on a strategy. When his unit was up to go on patrol he'd hop in the units sole Stuart light tank to do 'regular servicing', drove it to a nearby patch of sand, pulled a sharp right turn and Oops! The tank shed a track! Sorry guys, I've got to stay behind and fix this. Worked every time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 On 3/21/2024 at 7:23 AM, Artkin said: Everything except the bmp-3 was set to "normal" speed. Bmp-3 was set to "Quick". There is no evidence that plotted speeds influences bogging. My default setting is fast or hunt if it has riders. In a muddy affair FB, I immobilize one Sherman on average. Your case seem to point towards the map design. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted March 22 Author Share Posted March 22 1 hour ago, MikeyD said: I had a coworker long ago who was an old WWII Pacific jungle fighter. After spending years island fighting he pulled a Yossarian and decided he wanted to survive the war. He hit on a strategy. When his unit was up to go on patrol he'd hop in the units sole Stuart light tank to do 'regular servicing', drove it to a nearby patch of sand, pulled a sharp right turn and Oops! The tank shed a track! Sorry guys, I've got to stay behind and fix this. Worked every time. That's not what happened from my screenshot. There's no weaseling around this. We run d8 and d5 dozers at my job all day every day, and they have never shed anything. Driving forward should not cause as much bogging/immobilizations as it currently does. 23 minutes ago, chuckdyke said: There is no evidence that plotted speeds influences bogging. Yes it does. It's not about map design. Sand is not the same as hard dirt. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 (edited) 56 minutes ago, Artkin said: Yes it does. It's not about map design. Sand is not the same as hard dirt. If it is it should apply at every scenario. I my 20 years of experience as a player I have found no evidence. My default mode of travel is fast for me unless there is a reason not to. The engine slows vehicles down automatically anyway. In Black Sea I found that Ukrainian vehicles seem to bog down a lot. In Battle for Normandy allied tanks are doing OK. Edited March 22 by chuckdyke 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BornGinger Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 On 3/21/2024 at 12:23 AM, Artkin said: This is completely insane, why haven't you guys fixed this yet. This isnt fun, nor is it realistic, it's a joke. The mud tiles are always too sensitive. A vehicle can hardly move on a mud tile without getting stuck and jt doesn't matter whether it's on a field or just beside a road. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 10 minutes ago, BornGinger said: The mud tiles are always too sensitive. I think regardless of what speed you plot, the tile is the cause of bogging. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkEzra Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 I have dl'd the game file. Please let me know which game you were playing SF2 or Black Sea. I will look at the map. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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