How Hot is Ukraine Gonna Get?

[Battlefront.com]

A reminder that I shouldn't have to make... this is a thread about Ukraine, not Israel, Gaza, Iran, or conflicts elsewhere.  Of course there are some topics over overlap, but in such cases the link should be directly established when making a post.

At the moment the only thing I see that is directly relevant is that the House GOP might make an excuse to not bring up Ukraine aid this week.  Or it could be the exact opposite.  Cryptic statements are all we have tonight:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/us-house-to-consider-pro-israel-bill-next-week-lawmaker-says-after-iran-attack/ar-BB1lA3Ss

Steve

[ASL Veteran]

Not trying to move the thread off topic any more than it already has, but apparently US, UK, and French forces (ships I suppose) as well as Saudi and Jordanian forces are assisting in intercepting Iranian drones and missiles.  I just thought that was interesting.  I also saw something about 'stuff' happening inside Iran, but I haven't watched or read enough about it to know what's going on exactly.

[NamEndedAllen]

59 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

A reminder that I shouldn't have to make... this is a thread about Ukraine, not Israel, Gaza, Iran, or conflicts elsewhere.  Of course there are some topics over overlap, but in such cases the link should be directly established when making a post.

At the moment the only thing I see that is directly relevant is that the House GOP might make an excuse to not bring up Ukraine aid this week.  Or it could be the exact opposite.  Cryptic statements are all we have tonight:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/us-house-to-consider-pro-israel-bill-next-week-lawmaker-says-after-iran-attack/ar-BB1lA3Ss

Steve

Steve, apologies. I wasn’t clear enough at the top to say the connection in my opinion is the impact on Ukraine’s hard-pressed airdefenses. Shortages are already an issue of course, and the heavy expenditures in both the Houti/USN engagements and now this much larger sequence represent a significant expenditure of missiles in the region. Patriot launchers and missiles are in short supply in Ukraine and I doubt this event will make expanding Ukraine’s supply any easier. I hope I am wrong, and this proves to be a case of (twisted?) honor restored and the situation simmers down a bit.

[FancyCat]

It would be nice if Israel could finally provide some aid to Ukraine. I doubt it tho.

[Battlefront.com]

29 minutes ago, NamEndedAllen said:

Steve, apologies. I wasn’t clear enough at the top to say the connection in my opinion is the impact on Ukraine’s hard-pressed airdefenses. Shortages are already an issue of course, and the heavy expenditures in both the Houti/USN engagements and now this much larger sequence represent a significant expenditure of missiles in the region. Patriot launchers and missiles are in short supply in Ukraine and I doubt this event will make expanding Ukraine’s supply any easier. I hope I am wrong, and this proves to be a case of (twisted?) honor restored and the situation simmers down a bit.

Heh... yours was just about the only recent post I wasn't speaking too

Yes, this is one of the biggest lessons coming out of the war.  Not only are Western concepts of stockpiles for "the next conflict" not holding up so well, apparently nobody thought of the possibility that replacement rates for depleted stockpiles might not be quick enough to be ready for the next conflict.

This is why I keep returning to my pet peeve about not seeing the necessary mindset shift in Western weapons procurement yet.  It is very, very, VERY clear that fast production at mass scale is needed.  If a threat can be made for $1000 in a few days, then the counter to it should be as well.  Either that or a much more expensive system needs to be realistically capable of returning that sort of value over time. 

I'm a proponent of keeping my country and my allied friends safe.  In the past spending lots of money tended to achieve that goal.  Now?  It seems the opposite is true in that the more that is spent on big, expensive systems is likely making us less safe rather than more.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

1 hour ago, ASL Veteran said:

Not trying to move the thread off topic any more than it already has, but apparently US, UK, and French forces (ships I suppose) as well as Saudi and Jordanian forces are assisting in intercepting Iranian drones and missiles.  I just thought that was interesting.  I also saw something about 'stuff' happening inside Iran, but I haven't watched or read enough about it to know what's going on exactly.

Yes, off topic.  Not relevant, nor surprising.  Iran isn't well thought of in the region, to understate the situation.  Also, violations of sovereign airspace should be taken seriously, otherwise why bother having sovereignty?

Steve

[panzermartin]

I "hope" this thread stays titled how hot Ukraine's gonna get, in the near future. 

There are clear axises colliding in an expanding battlefront and nothing will surprise us anymore. Especially since we witnessed something us unimaginable as Russia storming a European capital. Everything is connected in a way or another. There is Russian presence in Syria, and there are Iranian drones in Kiev. 

But yes, for now makes sense to keep this thread clear off other conflicts. Like we wouldn't discuss WW2 North Africa and European theatre in the same thread. 

[Letter from Prague]

Haiduk if you don't like Western values then return all the Western help you've got. Maybe some country that doesn't have the LBGT and genders will help.

Let me think of some of those for you:

- Russia

- China

- Hungary (currently blocking EU aid)

- USA with Republicans in charge (currently blocking US aid)

- Hamas

- Iran

well seems you're out of luck. The people with your values do seem to be on the other side of the war. Maybe you should listen to you buddies Musk and Trump and Orban (who hate LBGT and genders as much as you) and just surrender.

[Holien]

Folk listen to Steve, let's keep this on track...

Please.

[panzermartin]

Deleted, no need to feed more off topic matters 

Edited April 14 by panzermartin

[alison]

Deleted, as per the message this was in response to.

Edited April 14 by alison

[Sgt Joch]

3 hours ago, Letter from Prague said:

Haiduk if you don't like Western values then return all the Western help you've got. Maybe some country that doesn't have the LBGT and genders will help.

Let me think of some of those for you:

- Russia

- China

- Hungary (currently blocking EU aid)

- USA with Republicans in charge (currently blocking US aid)

- Hamas

- Iran

well seems you're out of luck. The people with your values do seem to be on the other side of the war. Maybe you should listen to you buddies Musk and Trump and Orban (who hate LBGT and genders as much as you) and just surrender.

Well not sure what you are upset about. Haiduk’s attitude seems to be pretty much mainstream in Ukraine. The Ukrainian LGBT community has few of the rights enjoyed in North America, but that has been known for a long time so hardly news. For example, as I understand it, Trans sexuality is still classified as a psychiatric disorder in Ukraine.

The West supports Ukraine because of Russian aggression which means we have a mutual enemy. The West does not choose allies based on shared values, i.e. Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Turkey, etc.

[chris talpas]

8 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Heh... yours was just about the only recent post I wasn't speaking too

Yes, this is one of the biggest lessons coming out of the war.  Not only are Western concepts of stockpiles for "the next conflict" not holding up so well, apparently nobody thought of the possibility that replacement rates for depleted stockpiles might not be quick enough to be ready for the next conflict.

This is why I keep returning to my pet peeve about not seeing the necessary mindset shift in Western weapons procurement yet.  It is very, very, VERY clear that fast production at mass scale is needed.  If a threat can be made for $1000 in a few days, then the counter to it should be as well.  Either that or a much more expensive system needs to be realistically capable of returning that sort of value over time. 

I'm a proponent of keeping my country and my allied friends safe.  In the past spending lots of money tended to achieve that goal.  Now?  It seems the opposite is true in that the more that is spent on big, expensive systems is likely making us less safe rather than more.

Steve

Sounds like Perun is listening 

 

[Butschi]

1 minute ago, Sgt Joch said:

The West does not choose allies based on shared values, i.e. Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Turkey, etc.

Well, that's - sadly - true.

However, Ukraine doesn't merely strive to be an ally but to actually become part of the West, the EU in particular. And since joining EU means submitting to EU jurisdiction, Ukrainian society will have to adapt at least some.

[Battlefront.com]

19 minutes ago, Butschi said:

Well, that's - sadly - true.

However, Ukraine doesn't merely strive to be an ally but to actually become part of the West, the EU in particular. And since joining EU means submitting to EU jurisdiction, Ukrainian society will have to adapt at least some.

Yes, and this is why Poland's and Hungary's recent governments have caused such problems within the EU.  Their societies "adapted" after being a part of the EU.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

1 hour ago, chris talpas said:

Sounds like Perun is listening 

 

Cool!  I've got a long drive on Tuesday so now I know what I'm going to listen to.  It's usually Peron anyway

Steve

[Maciej Zwolinski]

4 hours ago, Letter from Prague said:

Haiduk if you don't like Western values then return all the Western help you've got. Maybe some country that doesn't have the LBGT and genders will help.

Let me think of some of those for you:

- Russia

- China

- Hungary (currently blocking EU aid)

- USA with Republicans in charge (currently blocking US aid)

- Hamas

- Iran

well seems you're out of luck. The people with your values do seem to be on the other side of the war. Maybe you should listen to you buddies Musk and Trump and Orban (who hate LBGT and genders as much as you) and just surrender.

That attitude is a huge mistake - this is what keeps the ranks of the West's enemies are always full. If the only ones who are worthy of support are those who share the - rather unique-  views of the West on social issues such as homosexualism, religion, ethnic minorities etc. then it is no wonder that finding allies in places such as Africa and Asia is difficult. Kabul University tweets about graduation of the gender studies class a couple of months before the Taliban stormed Kabul come to mind. It is an unforced own goal on part of the West.

If the aim is to defend the post-Cold War order against an attempt to change borders by force of arms, then every victim of aggression deserves to be supported, regardless of his social policy. Think Kuwait 1990-1991.

 

 

[sburke]

well Congress may have woken up.  Seems they recently heard about all the appliance theft by Russian troops so now they are focused on eliminating that threat.

Quote

 

In the meantime, the House Rules Committee has announced it's set to take a look at a series of six bills, each relating to government regulations and standards on household appliances.

The bills to be reviewed are the following:

Hands Off Our Home Appliances Act

Liberty in Laundry Act

Clothes Dryers Reliability Act

Refrigerator Freedom Act

Affordable Air Conditioning Act

Stop Unaffordable Dishwasher Standards Act

 

 

Don't worry Haiduk, we got your back!  

[omae2]

5 hours ago, Letter from Prague said:

Haiduk if you don't like Western values then return all the Western help you've got. Maybe some country that doesn't have the LBGT and genders will help.

Let me think of some of those for you:

- Russia

- China

- Hungary (currently blocking EU aid)

- USA with Republicans in charge (currently blocking US aid)

- Hamas

- Iran

well seems you're out of luck. The people with your values do seem to be on the other side of the war. Maybe you should listen to you buddies Musk and Trump and Orban (who hate LBGT and genders as much as you) and just surrender.

The main problem with this attitude is:

1.: It doesn't respect other peoples opinion on the matter, which very common when it comes to this topic.

2.: You guys acting like the west giving charity to Ukraine and not pursuing its political goals. The hypocrisy is strong with the argument that if you don't like our values than join the other side. Which would be a very big problem to NATO.

3.: This topics are not just blown out of proportion but doesn't matter at all. This is why its such a hotly discussed topic on the west. Cause it is a dividing matter, and have no consequence in peoples life. You can chew on it like a bone without any brain based on believes.

So i think we could give the courtesy to Haiduk that he has his values that can be respected not just yours.

[The Steppenwulf]

45 minutes ago, Maciej Zwolinski said:

That attitude is a huge mistake

As a lawyer you should know better that it's much more than just an 'attitude'. It's an entire legal framework underpinning the political ideology of liberal democracy.

Yes the west can sponsor whomever they like, the enemy of my enemy and all that, but there is much more going on here with the particular case of Ukraine because Ukraine has made it no secret that it aspires to joining the EU. As a matter of straightforward facts:-

• Ukraine will never join the EU if it does not uphold EU law - indeed it has to adopt EU law in order to be a member.
• Membership means compliance with the ECHR and its rulings.
• The ECHR enforces the core principles laid out and agreed upon by the union of liberal democratic states.
• Some of those principles cover the protection of minority groups and protection of individual freedoms etc..

This is just the way it is. You cannot cherry-pick the core ideas of liberal democracy anymore than you can cherry-pick the legal framework and membership of the EU.          

Edited April 14 by The Steppenwulf

[Harmon Rabb]

Lets not go down the path of even suggesting that Ukraine is not worthy of our support if they do not have the same level of LGBT rights as North America or some parts of to use a Rumsfeldian phrase, some parts of "Old Europe" have.

Personally I hope LGBT rights will improve in Ukraine because I believe what consenting adults do is their own bushiness. 

But if a country like Italy still has a long way to go which I'm sure most people here know was a founding member of the EU and NATO, lets not get hung up on this issue while Ukraine is literally fighting a war for its survival.

On a side note I had no idea Montenegro was so LGBT friendly until I looked at this map.

Source: ilga-europe

 

Edited April 14 by Harmon Rabb

[Ts4EVER]

2 hours ago, Sgt Joch said:

The West does not choose allies based on shared values, i.e. Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Turkey, etc.

Tell that to our propaganda...

[keas66]

13 minutes ago, omae2 said:

The main problem with this attitude is:

1.: It doesn't respect other peoples opinion on the matter, which very common when it comes to this topic.

2.: You guys acting like the west giving charity to Ukraine and not pursuing its political goals. The hypocrisy is strong with the argument that if you don't like our values than join the other side. Which would be a very big problem to NATO.3.: This topics are not just blown out of proportion doesn't matter at all. This is why its such a hotly discussed topic on the west. Cause it is a dividing matter, and have no consequence in peoples life. You can chew on it like a bone without any brain based on believes.

So i think we could give the courtesy to Haiduk that he has his values that can be respected not just yours.

Here's the thing though - generally - at its best - the West as part of its advantages over more totalitarian  places -  has come to represent toleration  of a whole lot of things which are not necessarily the end of Human Civilization as many  who oppose such toleration seem to think . The West is not going to fall because of trans gender rights or any other sub group of people wanting to express themselves how they feel . Its going to be because of war ,   resource scarcity and global changes to our economic systems due to our continued mis use of the planet .

[omae2]

3 minutes ago, keas66 said:

Here's the thing though - generally - at its best - the West as part of its advantages over more totalitarian  places -  has come to represent toleration  of a whole lot of things which are not necessarily the end of Human Civilization as many  who oppose such toleration seem to think . The West is not going to fall because of trans gender rights or any other sub group of people wanting to express themselves how they feel . Its going to be because of war ,   resource scarcity and global changes to our economic systems due to our continued mis use of the planet .

We should tolerate each other than, even if one on the other side of certain issues.

[Gnaeus]

Let's cut people facing an existential threat for them and their families a little slack. My country has plenty of things to regret under far less serious circumstances.