How Hot is Ukraine Gonna Get?

[Zeleban]

Some difficulties of mobilization

[Zeleban]

 

[FancyCat]

46 minutes ago, Butschi said:

Ok, I kind of disagree with #1. I said so earlier but let me elaborate.

We, or Ukraine for that matter, should consider the "why?". My point may be academic because I can't look into the heads of those who decide and the net result is the same, anyway.

So, going back to 1991, meaning retaking Crimea and the Donbas.

Is it, as you put it, about returning to 1991 borders, i.e. taking a map from that time and saying "look here, those lines belong here instead of there"? I deliberately make it sound a trivial matter because lines on maps are just an abstract concept. I am very happy that in this day and age we are far less inclined to go to war just in order to shift lines on maps. Hell, nations are a somewhat abstract concept for that matter. If it is only about that, no I don't agree with that goal.

Now, if it means liberating Ukrainians having to live under Russias yoke, that is a different and very legitimate matter. But. We've had a good number of pages now filled with discussions about whether the majority of people in the Donbas or on Crimea actually want to be liberated. I won't speculate on that because I simply lack the knowledge. I'll say that we should try to avoid double standards here and grant regions the right to secede from countries we don't like (Taiwan and China anyone?) and don't when it is from country we are more aligned with.

Goes into the same direction: Preventing Russian war crimes. Yes, of course!

Preventing Russia from blocking Ukrainian access the black sea. Also fine.

Retaking the lost territory just to discourage Russia (or other imperialists out there) from trying to invade other countries - a good reason too.

So, there, IMO, there are good, bad and somewhat mixed reasons and I can't agree with all of them. As I said my thinking here may be academic. Probably the reason for wanting to go back to 1991 borders is a mix of some or all of the above points.

Just to clarify, in case anyone gets confused, the clock is not turned back to 1991. It is turned back to January 2014. I'm sure you understand "by 1991 borders" we didn't mean some far away lines from a long time ago, we don't mean rolling back 31 years of changes. It is 8 years of changes. 

And again, the initial rebellion in the Donbas was going to end had Russia not invaded and reinforced their "little green men". So when reviewing the notion that the Donbas or Crimea might not want to be liberated, where you state that it is good to "Retaking the lost territory just to discourage Russia (or other imperialists out there) from trying to invade other countries - a good reason too."

The Donbas and Crimea would fall under this notion. The loss of both was mainly due to Russian intervention. It is essential to note, this has been a war since 2014. This is not a scenario where the LNR and DPR got to exist in 2014, been stalemated vs Ukraine in the Donbas till now, and then Russia ran in to assist in 2022, invading the rest of Ukraine.

Russia invaded in 2014, set up three occupation governments, and screwed up enough in Ukraine in 2022 that those occupation governments may fall soon enough.

You know, despite hearing the arguments of Ukraine, despite endorsing the view that Ukraine should regain her 2014 borders, I don't think I've really contextualized the entirety of it till now. Has there ever been a election in the DPR or LNR certified as fair and valid since 2014? I think the answer is no. I think its fair to say the LNR or DPR are occupation governments without democratic legitimacy and therefore, acting like they are expressions of sentiment of the population is incorrect. 

 

Edited September 23, 2022 by FancyCat

[FancyCat]

[Grigb]

Girkinites got permission to form their own volunteer unit:

Quote

VOLUNTEER DETACHMENT "NEVSKY" 

Additionally, I would like to inform you that, since the Nevsky volunteer detachment is a legitimate military formation, voluntary entry into the detachment is an alternative to conscription within the framework of ongoing mobilization.

Pros: volunteer staff, experienced command staff that participated in real combat , attitude to soldiers - as to human beings (military human beings) and normal supply [of equipment]. With strict but reasonable discipline. (As I was assured, no one will allow drink vodka [hard] at the front and in the rear, but volunteers will not have to pluck grass and practice a drill step instead of combat training classes either). But there will be no "[lucky] lottery" either - after training and combat coordination at the training ground, the detachment will not remain in the rear. Nevsky will fight at the front.

 

[kraze]

2 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Ignorance. If you went to the far east, it would take years before you came back. The form of government was anything but democratic. The people who run Unilever today were glorified pirates in the 17th and 18th century. The printing press was only a few hundred years old. Books were for the very rich. When I was a kid an encyclopedia cost three months wages. Today thanks to the internet we can have dialog which is required to have peace. 

Except russians have free access to the internet, books and dialog.

While future US citizens didn't have any access to the internet, books and dialog in 1776. People like Washington and Adams happened to lead the thing obviously not because British Empire appointed them there, but because locals chose to trust them.

Same as French. They went through three bloody revolutions, which, if you look at them, were basically civil wars between people who wanted dictatorship and people who wanted liberty. They tried until it worked, because people decided they want it. They had zero information about how to do it right, hence it took three attempts, but they kept trying.

So far east is far east because a "strongarm guy" ordering you around is a bad thing in your head - but is an absolutely desired thing in someone else's. And that's the difference that should be acknowledged and accepted - instead of writing it off to "evil tyrants", many of whom, ironically, never hurt anyone in their lives personally.

Edited September 23, 2022 by kraze

[Huba]

1 hour ago, FancyCat said:

Now, you make a good point that I've been saying a lot, Ukraine can't knock Russia out, its impossible,

I see that statement thrown around a lot, and by gawd I don't understand what it means. Knock down as in make it physically impossible for RU to wage war by occupying it's territory and killing enough russians? Yeah, for that you got to be a Mongolian horde, nobody else ever succeeded in that.
But knock them down, as in break RU society's will to fight to the point that they accept a peace on your terms and change their focus to internal squabbling? Well, 1905 calls to say hello. IMO RU is clearly following along very similar path as imperial russia then, we are just one Tshushima short.

And about the "if it's worth for UA to take casualties to retake Donbas/ Crimea". Not my decision to make of course, and a horrible one for anybody. But, as a rule of thumb, NATO is not accepting members who have open border disputes with their neighbours. Only sensible security arrangement for UA in the future means NATO membership. Therefore, when this war ends, UA has to be inside the borders that it can assume to be permanent. Hoping for any realignments in the future is absolutely futile from this perspective, it is a now or never situation.

Edited September 23, 2022 by Huba

[Grigb]

Here is a whitewashed description of mobilization from Rybar.

Quote

About the problems of partial mobilization

By the third day of partial mobilization, the following picture is emerging.

There is targeted work in military commissariats, there are teams that really care about their work, [they] are attentive to [mobilization] candidates and to the fulfillment of the instructions of the Supreme Commander-in-Chief and the Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation.

But these are at best two—thirds [at best - very optimistic statement. Realistic one is the other way round].

Basically, the first thing that worries military commissariats and military commissars is the implementation of the plan. The same stick system that has become the scourge of all Russian orgs [subordinates are pressured to provide as many sticks (units of something) - as possible (and often impossible) regardless of real efficiency].

A huge number of stories and proofs were sent to [our Telegram] feedback bot about how people with health restrictions, without combat experience or any military specialty were handed summonses.

There are a lot of stories about volunteers, whom unmotivated [commissariat] employees (well, seriously: [these] aunts and grandmothers receive 12 thousand [rubles - 100-200 euros per month] each) refuse, explaining that "they have already recruited everyone [they need]."

In the Kursk region, summonses were generally stuck in door jambs. But we will not vouch for the authenticity of the story: this could easily have been done by provocateurs.

We understand that the mobilization mechanism that has not functioned for years, objectively failed to cope with recruitment campaigns, [and] is not able to work like clockwork right away.

We understand that some kind of full-fledged digitalization of military enlistment offices, as well as the presence of horizontal links between them, is out of the question. Well, in reality the instructions of the Minister of Defense have been fulfilled only in reports. Therefore, military commissariats do not have [required] information about human resources.

We understand that many people could have received summonses by mistake or as part of a banal reconciliation.

We only hope that when it comes to protecting the sovereignty of the Russian State, people on the ground will stop fulfilling the plan, but will do targeted, high-quality work.

Otherwise, the reputational costs of mobilization due to the fault of the performers will hit the military-political leadership of the Russian Federation with a boomerang. [Take a note how this guy (or actually guys) sees himself as friendly outsider to RU military-political leadership. That's how Prigozhin band see themselves - they are private allies of current state RU leadership]

 

[chuckdyke]

2 minutes ago, kraze said:

So far east is far east because a "strongarm guy" ordering you around is a bad thing in your head -

The Germans say: Geld regiert der Welt. Money rules the world. In German it rhymes. You fight an army who get paid, they find it is not enough and that's why their morale is low. You invade because you get paid. You defend otherwise your world comes to an end. Music keeps the spirit up.

 

[kevinkin]

2 hours ago, Haiduk said:

Сasualties about 150-200+KIA for a day have related to short time period from last days of May to mid of June, when we suffered critical lack of 152 mm shells, especially on Donbas, and most of theese losses were exactly on Donbas.

OK this figure jives with the other guy's and I guess is elevated due to offensive ops. However, increased causalities as the result of a storage of a single caliber of shell is puzzling even though the 152 is very commonly used. Sounds like the offensive was time sensitive and Ukraine needed to accept losses to take advantage of the situation on the ground as presented by western ISR to be damned with ammo deliveries. Would like to understand why this shortage took place, do you have a reference? 

[FancyCat]

It's deeply ironic we are discussing insurgencies, potential unrest, the validity and worth of liberating the LNR and DPR, meanwhile the same sort of sham referendums that occurred in 2014 in the Donbas are occurring again in 2022 except with even more shamelessness. (God forbid Ukraine can't liberate her lands wholly, will we be discussing insurgencies and unrest and wondering if Ukraine should actually liberate Melitopol 8 years down the line as we do now with Luhansk and Donetsk?)

Something to ponder as we consider escalation. I already brought up the pattern of escalation from 2014 till now and the lack of response from the West essentially green lighting Putin till now. In our review of the mobilization, the referendums, while focusing on the desperation, I think it's time to once again reflect on the escalatory climb Putin is making, and for me to emphasize that climbing down the ladder in the face of such bull**** isn't just being "unfair to Ukraine", it's green lighting the way for a more painful future for everyone. (again, I've gone on about how Ukraine is getting so much destruction)(it's time to reflect even tho nothing should take away from the suffering of Ukraine, if the West put it's foot down in 2014, there would also be tens of thousands of Russians not dead due to this invasion so when you warn about nuclear bombs and escalating against Russia, do well to remember de-escalation is the legacy we see playing out right now, so you very strongly need to ask yourself is letting Putin win going to safeguard everyone or not?

Gotta bring up Azov here, if there was a way to tell the RU Nats, I'm the boss, I'm listening cause not only did he release them, the population didn't care and part of RU Nat hope is blowback to emphasize Putin made the wrong decision, in fact the population cares much more about the mobilization that RU Nats seek to try and win the war and that he seemingly has tried his best to not undertake.

Hmmmm. On one hand, if he himself is a hardliner, wouldn't he have mobilized to better ensure the war would win or at least stalemate? Now he's no military man but I'm assuming he has advisors.

Hardliner or not, he did mess up in Ukraine, that is his fault ultimately. Someone needs to get the axe for the impending defeat. Maybe a series of warnings to the RU Nats to not think just cause he screwed up, that he isn't out and you better not get funny business, and your hope of bottom up anger towards me is baseless. (Mobilization, well he needs the troops, but I'm really unsure why he waited)(maybe he was hoping too much in the faulty optimism of the Russian General Staff?)

[The_MonkeyKing]

 

Again, doesn't mean the government would do anything.

But I can see a Leo2 "pool" happening. Everyone gives what they can to get something like 100 pieces together. And of course new ones on order for next year(s). Finland alone could give 10-20 I am sure. 

Of course this would cause a capability gap but we must remember that this equipment is earmarked already for Russian and will lower the Russian thread.

[Ultradave]

4 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

There is a very tried and true "rule of three" for most things in life.  Something can be made quickly (speed), inexpensively (price), or well executed (quality).  Like it or not, you can only have two out of the three.  Quick and cheap, but not quality.  Quality and quick, but not cheap.  Inexpensive and quality, but not quick.

This right here is why nuclear submarines are very expensive. Quality has to be pretty much perfect. (for obvious reasons).  Quality costs money, sometimes extra time as well, if something doesn't test perfectly. 

Dave

[FancyCat]

 

 

[womble]

37 minutes ago, kevinkin said:

OK this figure jives with the other guy's and I guess is elevated due to offensive ops. However, increased causalities as the result of a storage of a single caliber of shell is puzzling even though the 152 is very commonly used. Sounds like the offensive was time sensitive and Ukraine needed to accept losses to take advantage of the situation on the ground as presented by western ISR to be damned with ammo deliveries. Would like to understand why this shortage took place, do you have a reference? 

I think you're misunderstanding Haiduk's point.

The 150-200/day KIA number is from "way back" in May-June, when Russia was gnawing away in the Donbas. The reference to lack of ammo for the most common artillery piece is because the lack of ammo for the guns meant the Russian attacks couldn't be squelched by the King of the Battlefield, and the Queen (Poor Bloody Infantry) had to do the job up close and personal, in the face of Russian artillery supremacy, which meant a lot of the ground pounders had to pay the blood price to keep Russia's rate of advance glacial.

The cause of the lack was the immense expenditure earlier in the war which meant that, at that time, supplies overall were badly depleted. The NATO-supplied 155s were only just coming on line, and the other-nation supplies of Soviet calibres were only just, IIRC, being arranged/implemented.

It has nothing to do with offensive operations by the UKR armed forces; they've been undertaking those with adequate-to-overwhelming indirect fire support.

Edited September 23, 2022 by womble

[Grigb]

And here is more sobering assessment. I could not resist commenting on it as the author is clearly from RU Nat elite and never had to interact with RU reality.  

Quote

Colleagues correctly wrote about the problems of the current mobilization [Rybar post above]. And in fact, the situation is such that either the relevant structures will solve these problems, or due to lack of [any] solution, we will get a bunch of new problems.

For example, I am aware of cases when veterans of the North Caucasus CTO [counter-terror op - Chechnya 2], participants in [military] hostilities, extremely motivated people, some of them even managed to take part in SMO [already] in volunteer units in the DPR, [but they] did not get on the lists of mobilized. At the same time, there are people on the lists who are over 50 as reserve officers, but they have not served a single day. Although they have the appropriate military specialty (in this specific case - electronic warfare). Well, he is a man of Soviet making. He said, if necessary, I'll go. And yet I would like to ask the staff of the military enlistment office: did you really think that this particular person is needed at the front?

The situation suggests that either the lists in the military enlistment offices have not been updated for a long time, or, as colleagues correctly write, at the level of implementers nobody cared [Both]. No one read into personal affairs, did not look to see if a person had a skill, but simply raked in a wide net, just to make a plan. [Welcome to RU reality, you RU Nat elite imbecile]

Do I need to explain what it will cause? It's obvious to me, but I'll explain.
- there will be people in the combat zone who have no experience, no motivation, or even proper physical condition
- the effectiveness of their actions will be extremely small, and the probability of death or injury, on the contrary, is high.
- incorrect actions within the framework of mobilization and subsequent training of units will become the basis of social tension. [No **** Sherloc - it happens every time, that's why RU mobilization always shocks RU public]

Well, these are, offhand, the three most obvious points. However, they are probably not obvious to everyone.

For example, in Buryatia, as many as 70 fathers with many children [they were totally exempt] were initially called up. Seventy! This is a completely objective indicator of the quality of the work of military enlistment offices. However, this is the quality of the work of executive authorities as well. [Good] we figured it out quickly. [Sherloc - this is how they all always worked, including USSR time]

But such work on mobilization leads to panic in the rear, hysterical moods and, I repeat, wild social tension. And, of course, it gives the ground for the work of CIPSO [nickname of UKR info operatives] and Ukrainian propaganda. As well as forces that want to weaken Russia through the buildup of internal discontent. Did you think - if Navalny is in prison, then that's it?

However, it is good that all the problems of mobilization become immediately known to everyone. This, of course, is not liked by those comrades who are chasing the plan in order to report ASAP that citizens have been mobilized. But it's time to understand that the time for reports and presentations is over. That's it. [We] Don't need a plan. It is necessary to do the work well, honestly, and qualitatively.

I assume that next we will face a situation where in training centers, instead of combat training and coordination, reservists will be taught to march and sing songs. And instead of learning the methods and tactics of modern warfare, they will be told how to shoot down a drone from a machine gun [instead of anti-drone rifle] or quickly put on a gas mask.

But I assume that we will learn about this quickly from the reservists, just as we learned quickly about current problems, and with the help of citizen pressure, we will be able to correct the situation there.

If it is mobilization, then it should become the basis for strengthening the army. And not the cause of shocks. [RU reality is hard for naive RU Nat elite imbeciles] 

Discussion - what you see in the posts above is growing conflict between RU Nat generations. Currently the Putin generation is in charge. It is the generation that grew up before Perestroika. They grew up learning that the State is the solution to any problem. Plan is everything. They know nothing else. 

The new generation (kind of mine) is a generation that has got a taste of Capitalism. They do not care about Plan as long as there is result. And the older generation is failing to deliver the result. The older generation becomes a liability in the war the new generation wants to wage. 

As I said previously, I sense the migration of Power from old generation state actors (governors, police and army generals) due to their incompetence to new generation private actors (PMCs). But I need to add community actors (volunteer militias) as well. This is where the future front lines of RU Civil War are most likely to appear.

RU Old War Criminals against RU New War Criminals. But with Nukes.

I hope Europe Security Services and Armed Forces are not asleep at the wheel and will be ready for it.

[The_Capt]

5 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Ukraine may have to make some tough decisions about what to compromise on.  Go full guns for #1 and wind up losing #2?  Go for as much of #1 as possible without getting #2 into the mix?  Ignore #3 for now and hope that it comes about eventually through collective international action over time?

Just like Russia has lost this war due to maximalist thinking, Ukraine can lose something very important to it by adopting the same mindset.  I don't know what the right answer is, I just know that Ukraine needs to be thinking along these lines. 

I concurrence with this, very much.  I absolute think Ukraine is entitled to regain its 1991 borders, that is recognized by the international community and my own government.

But should they?

I am not an expert on governments or politics with all the permutations and combinations that distribution of power can play out in a society.  I am an expert on defence and security, and in my business both Donbas and Crimea are starting to look like poison pills.

Now before everyone gets excited, hear me out.  We have gone round and round on the issue of what democracy would look like in this regions, let alone re-integration challenges back into Ukraine.  I am sure smarter and better educated people than me would figure it out, after what looks like a painful journey.  However from a security point of view:

- We have around 50% percent of the populations (pre-war) in these regions who are or have  been “pro-Russian”.  In Crimea that number appears to be closer to 68 percent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimeahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea

-  I think we can all agree that complete removal of Russian influence in these regions is the end goal; however, we should also be pragmatic in that will be very difficult.  It is highly likely that Russia will continue to do what it did before this war, subvert-meddle and support resistance groups.

- We have an unsolvable riddle on enfranchisements of these groups.  In fact some members here don’t even feel that people who fought in this war on the other side can be re-integrated back into Ukraine.  Others have outlined how a referendum is impossible due to 1) Russian gerrymandering thru war crimes, which is true and 2) these regions lack legitimacy based on previous actions.  Either way returning large proportions of regional population back into Ukraine with full democratic freedoms is not going to be easy.

With those three factors, and there are more - these regions are the setup for a security nightmare.  First, in Crimea there will likely be a humanitarian crisis when the UA re-takes the region as people flee across a single bridge - that can and will blow up all over the internet.  Second, as some point out, these regions will be as Germany was in 1945 - except now they all have cellphones - the odds of information resistance and warfare in these regions is almost a certainty.  Third, you have all the conditions for an insurgency backed by Russia in both these regions.

All risks during what is supposed to be a western backed reconstruction phase.  The risks to Ukraine losing the strategic narrative are extremely high, in fact a weakened Russia will go out of its way to make it happen.  Ukraine will risk taking on a decades-long nearly unsolvable ethnic based security riddle.

Maximalist is a very good word here, Steve.  These goals are just and Ukraine is entitled to them, no argument but the risks are very high that Ukraine will risk it’s strategic high ground when it needs it most if they pursue these ends.

In the end this will be a Ukrainian decision, it is their right and they have earned it.  My advice is that they think long and hard before they wade into this, it has broken more powerful nations.

[LongLeftFlank]

1 hour ago, FancyCat said:

 

(For those not getting the US cultural reference, this is an anti Vietnam War protest song.  The relevant part starts at 14:30)

Вы можете получить все, что захотите, в ресторане Алисы...

Edited September 23, 2022 by LongLeftFlank

[kevinkin]

29 minutes ago, womble said:

offensive operations by the UKR armed forces; they've been undertaking those with adequate-to-overwhelming indirect fire support.

OK, I see what you mean. Should the figure below be used moving forward? Hard to tell exactly.

"As told representative of General Staff average rate of KiA usually not exceed 30-50 for a day."

[RandomCommenter]

5 hours ago, Combatintman said:

10 hours ago, RandomCommenter said:

Now personally I believe in democracy. I want to see a pluralistic, democratic Ukraine within the EU and NATO. And I wish the EU had better tools to deal with semi-democratic regimes in the neighborhood like Hungary, Poland and the UK.

Data suggests otherwise ...

Democracy Data Explorer - Our World in Data

I mean we are just after an orgy of celebration of a feudal monarchy but yeah, whatever. And the arrest of protestors, super democratic. Holding up a blank piece of paper being a criminal offence. Nice.

New head of state and new prime minister in the past two weeks were selected by somewhat less than democratic means.

Current government trying to withdraw from the European Convention of Human Rights because it makes it a bit inconvenient for them to ship vulnerable people off to Rwanda.

One of the two houses of parliament being literally a House of Lords. Super democratic.

Don't get me wrong, the UK is no Russia. And I am grateful for all the help the UK is giving Ukraine. But definitely has work to do (as do most countries in fairness). 

[Taranis]

Entries at the Finnish-Russian border have doubled since the announcement of the partial military mobilization
 

Quote

The number of entries of Russian citizens at the Finnish border has doubled since the announcement of partial military mobilization in Russia, border guards said on Friday. Finland, which is preparing to further tighten the entry conditions for Russians with visas in the Nordic country, saw “6,470 Russians enter through the land border on Thursday”, said the Finnish border guard on Twitter.

At the start of the week, the level was around 3,100, and the number of entries on Thursday is similar to a traditionally busier weekend day. The number of crossings to Finland clearly exceeds that to Russia, but remains relatively low compared to, for example, pre-pandemic levels of Covid-19, according to border guards.

"Tourism and travel by Russians must be halted, including transit through Finland," Social Democratic Prime Minister Sanna Marin said Thursday. The risk posed by Russian travelers must be "reassessed" after Moscow's mobilization order, she said. "Other countries, like the Baltics and Poland, have used this security risk as an argument to keep people out," she said.

 

[Taranis]

436 bodies were exhumed in Izium, 30 of which bore visible signs of torture, Ukrainian officials say

Quote

Ukrainian officials said 436 bodies had been exhumed from a mass burial site in the eastern town of Izium, 30 of which bore visible signs of torture, the Associated Press reported (AP). The head of the Kharkiv administrative region, Oleh Synehubov, and the region's police chief, Volodymyr Tymoshko, told reporters in Izium on Friday that three more graves had been located in areas taken over by Ukrainian forces during the a counter-offensive this month.

Source : Le Monde

[RandomCommenter]

5 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

• Ukraine returns to its 1991 borders
• nothing turns radioactive, be it a nuke plant or dropping some form of nuke ordinance
• Russia ceases to be able to function in its traditional imperialist and genocidal form.  Not just Putin's regime, but anybody who might want to keep Russia rolling down the same path

I agree fully with these three goals.

I just don't think that fear of goal 2 should prevent us from pursuing goal 1. Where and when do we call the bluff? I mean if they declare Warsaw to be a part of Russia and say they will use nukes if we disagree do we bow to that?

And if we can get Crimea restored to a Ukraine that is a member of EU and NATO, if we can restore Moldovan sovereignty to Transistria and Georgian sovereignty to Abkhazia and South Ossetia, if we can get regime change in Belarus, if the Ukrainians can destroy what is left of the Russian army, I would call that imperial Russia in their box for the next 20 years at least.

[DesertFox]

1 hour ago, The_MonkeyKing said:

 

Again, doesn't mean the government would do anything.

But I can see a Leo2 "pool" happening. Everyone gives what they can to get something like 100 pieces together. And of course new ones on order for next year(s). Finland alone could give 10-20 I am sure. 

Of course this would cause a capability gap but we must remember that this equipment is earmarked already for Russian and will lower the Russian thread.

There was no such vote. The motion of the conservative party was relegated to the foreign affairs commitee. Most likely nothing will happen with regards to the motion.

Der Bundestag hat am Donnerstag, 22. September 2022, einen Antrag der Unionsfraktion mit dem Titel „Frieden und Freiheit in Europa verteidigen – Ukraine jetzt entschlossen mit schweren Waffen unterstützen“ (20/3490) beraten. Im Anschluss an die Debatte wurde der Antrag zur weiteren Beratung in den federführenden Auswärtigen Ausschuss überwiesen.

Google translation: On Thursday, September 22, 2022, the Bundestag discussed a motion by the Union parliamentary group entitled “Defend peace and freedom in Europe – now resolutely support Ukraine with heavy weapons” (20/3490). Following the debate, the motion was referred to the lead foreign affairs committee for further consultation.

Source: Deutscher Bundestag - Debatte zur Lieferung schwerer Waffen in die Ukraine

[Aragorn2002]

26 minutes ago, LongLeftFlank said:

Вы можете получить все, что захотите, в ресторане Алисы...

I don't know what that means, but I don't agree.