Engine 5 Wishlist

[Codreanu]

1 hour ago, BornGinger said:

As the game requires the one calling in artillery support, being it the forward observer, an officer or someone else with the rights to do it, having a proper view of the area that needs to be covered with artillery shells, it would be great if Engine5, or a wished for future CMx3, could have a feature similar to what is told by Bjørn Lindstad when he describes his work as an artillery forward observer in SS-Regiment Norge during the battle of Narva in the Winter of 1944.

 

There's probably an infinite number of these little details that would be nice to have. I was reading Red Army by Ralph Peters recently and there's a scene where a Soviet forward air controller has to climb up onto a roof to get a clear line of sight to call in his planes, and I instantly thought about how useful that would be in CM.

[BornGinger]

When I read about the Second World War it is often mentioned that the German soldiers and people who believed in the Nazi cause put a trust and large amount of hope in "Hitler's Wunderwaffen" as they seem to have called them. I wonder whether part of these "Wonder Weapons" were x-ray glasses, early prototypes of the drones which are used today or maybe even the not confirmed fact that Superman's brother was cooperating with the Germans?

These screenshots from the game (the A December Morning quick battle map changed into an attack quick battle) shows that BFC either knows a bit of this secret fact and have put it as a feature in the games or, most likely, that it's about time that BFC takes a closer look at what is wrong with the line of sight in the games and what they can do about it to make the games more tactical and more challenging to play.

I'm sure that having a magic line of sight and a magic line of fire will ensure that BFC will sell loads of copies of the games on Steam to kids who allways want to win but it's probably not so interesting for many others who buy the games. The upcoming engine update could be used for changing the way line of sight and line of fire work.

Edited November 3, 2021 by BornGinger

[AlexUK]

I seem to recall that someone at Battlefront had said that spotting has been artifically boosted vs Real World as otherwise game would vbe frustrating as hardly anything would be spotted. 

 

Having said that, I entirely agree that spotting through woods should be lowered, particularly when looking into woods. Again, I recall from a BFC comment that this is not Wysiwyg, but rather some formula based on tiles. 

[chuckdyke]

Just now, AlexUK said:

but rather some formula based on tiles. 

True it is easy to discover. Make a simple map and don't paint any trees on it. Just different tiles and check visibility. 

[A Canadian Cat]

4 hours ago, BornGinger said:

I'm sure that having a magic line of sight and a magic line of fire

Steve has discussed some of the issues with LOS and trees. Your example might be something different but you might like to read this if you haven't seen it already.

 

[Cpt_Winters]

As a new player to CM (CMBN specifically) I admit I'm probably not qualified to be making change proposals without earning my stripes so to speak, but hey, I will anyway.

I'll state up front I'm absolutely loving CM and as a new player I wish I'd found it sooner.  I feel like I've missed out on years of fun.

Anyway, from my relative noob perspective and having now played and experienced both "games" I'll make what is probably a sacrilegious comparison with a different game series, Graviteam Tactics and suggest some changes I think CM would benefit from and because once you've had them - you miss them when they're gone:

1. Campaign generator.

2. AI capable of reacting to the players actions.

3. Dynamic strategic campaigns and battlefields that leave destruction, lost units and vehicles in place over the course of future battles on the same terrain.  The immersion and feeling of awesomeness this gives you as a player when you notice it for the first time is seriously cool.

4. Ability to review, assign reserves your troop and vehicle load outs between engagements.

5. Better review and breakdown of engagement statistics and casualties etc.

[Redwolf]

5 minutes ago, Cpt_Winters said:

5. Better review and breakdown of engagement statistics and casualties etc.

I second this. Instead of what we have it should at least be:

• 3 out of 12 guns destroyed
• 7 out of 9 tanks destroyed
• [etc]

For infantry/men as we have it, guns, other crewed weapons, tanks, other armored vehicles, other vehicles, aircraft.

Also, in CMRT we lack any "combat victories" display after the battle for aircraft, since aircraft don't have a controller on map anymore.

[Cpt_Winters]

7 hours ago, BornGinger said:

I'm sure that having a magic line of sight and a magic line of fire will ensure that BFC will sell loads of copies of the games on Steam to kids who allways want to win but it's probably not so interesting for many others who buy the games. The upcoming engine update could be used for changing the way line of sight and line of fire work.

So true.  This point was probably one of the most criticisms I read on Steam reviews while I was researching this brilliant game.

While I don't doubt there's improvements possible I just hope a magic line of site is not one of them - or if it is then it's able to be disabled.  

I'm all for developers selling more copies as it only benefits everyone in the long run.  But for me personally it was what I can only presume to be realistic game mechanics like line of site that led me to purchase CM recently.

[Bozowans]

8 hours ago, BornGinger said:

When I read about the Second World War it is often mentioned that the German soldiers and people who believed in the Nazi cause put a trust and large amount of hope in "Hitler's Wunderwaffen" as they seem to have called them. I wonder whether part of these "Wonder Weapons" were x-ray glasses, early prototypes of the drones which are used today or maybe even the not confirmed fact that Superman's brother was cooperating with the Germans?

These screenshots from the game (the A December Morning quick battle map changed into an attack quick battle) shows that BFC either knows a bit of this secret fact and have put it as a feature in the games or, most likely, that it's about time that BFC takes a closer look at what is wrong with the line of sight in the games and what they can do about it to make the games more tactical and more challenging to play.

I'm sure that having a magic line of sight and a magic line of fire will ensure that BFC will sell loads of copies of the games on Steam to kids who allways want to win but it's probably not so interesting for many others who buy the games. The upcoming engine update could be used for changing the way line of sight and line of fire work.

 

Kinda hard to tell without seeing what happened in the game myself, but that looks like a tall pine forest where the tree canopies are pretty high up off the ground, allowing you to see right through it depending on elevation.

[Erwin]

It's been long pointed out that the engine AI can spot a pixel-wide gap through many meters of dense woods - a gap that the human eye cannot see.  Sometimes it works to one's own advantage, sometimes not.  It's been recorded in the ODDITIES AND WEIRDNESS OF THE CM2 SYSTEM list (see item 10):

Note: Some of the items are only pertinent to modern titles and other items are relevant to all titles.

Re CMSF2 (so far): 1)  Spotting issues.  A two man scout team with no binoculars can spot enemy units at close to 3,000 meters much better than an FO (with super dooper optics tech) or an HQ with binocs.  Folks have opined that it's because one of the riflemen has a "Thermal Imager" attached to his rifle and that is why they spot so well.  However, if that is accurately simulated in CM2 then why don't all RL units have thermal imagers and scrap the expensive and heavy laser designators and other high-tech optics that seem so inferior in the game?

2)  Related to item 1) Once can have a scout team, an FO, an HQ, a Jav team etc all in the same location, literally lying on top of each other.  The scout team sees an enemy units - but even after many minutes the other teams cannot see it - they do not communicate.  There is something wrong with the C2 system.  Again... apologists say that in RL they often cannot see what their buddy can see.  However, since the Thermal Imager is so much more effective, wouldn't they simply borrow the rifle with the Thermal Imager so they could see for themselves and then line up their super dooper optical gear on the target so they could finally see it?

3)  The M1046 TOW Humvee crew can dismount and take the TOW launcher and missile with them.  According to the UI it takes something like 1.7 minutes to deploy the TOW and a lot longer to pack up.  But it never seems to deploy. 

4)  Related to item 2) It is very very hard to use any vehicle mounted ATGM in CM2 as "hull-down" doesn't mean that only the vehicle optics on the roof are exposed.  Instead the top of the vehicle is exposed and can be easily seen and fired at and destroyed.  Without being able to dismount the TOW in this example, it's usually suicidal to attempt to fire the TOW even from a hull-down position. (Not sure if this has been fixed in CMCW.)

5)  Same is true for the M707 Humvee and other "Arty Spotting vehicles" with Laser and other high hech on the roof.  All of these cannot be safely used in CM2 "hull-down" as they can be easily seen and destroyed.

6)  The M1114 AGL (Automatic Grenade Launcher) Humvee crew can dismount with the AGL.  However, it must be a spare from the trunk as an AGL remains mounted on the Humvee and can be crewed and operated by another crew or inf team.  Is it correct that the M1114 carries two AGL's?  (Note that the crew of the M1114 with the 50 cal can also dismount and operate it, but in this case the Humvee no longer has the 50 cal mounted.)

7)  UK HQ's in CMSF2 cannot spot for arty or air.

Heavy arty falling on top of enemy troops often doesn't incapacitate them.  While it's true that shrapnel may miss, the shock wave of a large explosion alone is usually deadly as it can liquefy one's innards.

9)  Some vehicles carry ammo that seems to be available for resupply.  But, the crew cannot ACQUIRE any, and/or neither can any other unit mount the vehicle to ACQUIRE any.  Eg: The M1046 TOW Humvee) have quantities of regular ammo eg: 5.56mm etc.  But it seems impossible to acquire any of it.  The crew cannot acquire it, and if you dismount em and mount an inf team, they also cannot acquire any ammo.

10) LOS/LOF issues.  While CM2 is supposed to be WYSIWYG it often doesn't work that way.  One can get down to level one and eyeball a situation.  But, what one sees from a location often is not what a unit will see at that same location.  Eg: The AI can see pixel-wide gaps in what human examination considers completely blocked LOS.  A related issue is that one can eyeball a situation like a road in town and there is no obstruction down a street to target a building.  But one finds that when one places a unit in that location, it cannot see or shoot at the building.  

11) Another LOS/LOF issue.  Frequently we find that a crew served weapon can see and target an enemy only to discover that it's only the 3rd ammo loader who can see the enemy, not the main gun/gunner.  However, it is usually impossible to move the MG or gun a few inches to a position where it can see and fire the primary weapon at the enemy.  

12)  Finding Hulldown positions is often problematic.  Some folks seem to like the "Hulldown Assist routine" available in the game.  But, often it simply leave the vehicle with no LOS to the desired target and one has to waste another turn (in WEGO obviously) manually moving the waypoints to get a hull-down position.  So, one may as well do it manually from the start.  The additional problem is that it is common that vehicles go from having "No LOS' to "Partial Hull Down" with no "Hulldown" option being able to be located in between.  One can spend many minutes dicking around with moving waypoints the shortest possible distance in this, that or the other direction to find a hull-done position (relative to the desired target), but one can only find either "No LOS" or "Partial Hulldown" positions.  It's unclear if this is an issue with the map, (maybe the terrain is strange), or the LOS routine.

13) Some vehicles like Bradleys when targeted vs a building don't use the desired weapon - their cannon - but instead fire their missiles - which often makes no sense.  (Target Light makes em use their MG's.)  BMP's are similar vs buildings: Sometimes they use their ATGM's, sometimes their cannon, and sometimes their MG - even if one orders TARGET LIGHT.  There is no indication as to why the AI chooses a particular weapons system.

14) SMOKE and buildings...  Smoke acts as if there are no obstructions or walls and will drift through a building as it is made of wire.  This is actually very helpful when one is attempting to assault a multi-room building.  But, doesn't reflect RL.

15) When one orders a SMOKE artillery strike and run out of SMOKE, the battery obviously still has all its HE rounds.  However, if you first order HE, when all shells are gone the battery has no SMOKE rounds left - they seem to have been used up as HE.

16) Some SNIPER teams in CMSF2 carry 50 cal rounds, even though they possess no weapon that can use 50 cal rounds.  

17) Park your vehicle directly behind a small tree and any enemy fire that comes from that direction will hit the virtually indestructible tree and the vehicle may be 100% unaffected.  Unless the enemy gun/tank moves, it can exhaust all its ammo in this way.  AI controlled guns especially can be made useless by this trick.  It seems that trees are better armor and provide better protection vs AT rounds than steel. 

18) Attempting to resupply a squad one may split off a two-man team to mount a vehicle, get the ammo, then debark and run to where its squad is.  That takes two turns.  However, the teams may not recombine.  A turn later when one again moves both parts of the squad to the same spot, they may still not recombine.  To get the teams to recombine one has to split the larger squad team into two and then move all three teams to the same spot.  Only then will the teams recombine to the full squad and complete ammo resupply.  

19) Heavy HE barrage does not seem to damage vehicle/armor subsystems as much as expected.

20) Some vehicles like the WW2 era 8 wheeled German Rad recon vehicles are supposed to be able to move as fast in reverse as forwards, but in the game move in reverse much slower.  In the game, it may be that all reverse speeds are identical or % of the forward speed.

21) Crewing oddities.  BMP's usually benefit re spotting from an extra man or two in the vehicle in addition to the crew in addition to enabling the vehicle to "Open Up".  A BMP cannot "open up" if it only carries its 2-man crew.  If the BMP has lost a crewman, and there are no other inf being carried, it cannot TARGET - it becomes merely a transport vehicle.  However, sometimes, leaving an extra two-man team in the BMP will enable it to "open up" and TARGET and other times it won't.  Adding a two man crew from another vehicle to the BMP will still not enable this BMP to TARGET anything and the BMP still cannot "open up".  The extra crew are treated as mere passengers.  It's all irregular and unpredictable.  

22) Guns in CM2 aim for the center of mass.  So, even when at short range, the gun will aim for the hull even though it may have more chance of killing or damaging the target by aiming at a different part.  If the turret is less well armored than (say) the hull that can mean that a hull-down tank may be more vulnerable than out in the open, as the turret will be the target. 

23) Tanks can spot inf ridiculously quickly given what we know of tank's poor vision when buttoned up, or in poor visibility, like in smoke etc.

24) Inf is unable to detect a tank that is  a few meters away on the other side of a wall, or in poor visibility.

25) WW2 jeeps and trucks have bulletproof windshields. Often making the driver much harder to kill than he should be.

26) Some vehicles have onboard mortars that do not need to dismount to fire.  However, if one does dismount, deploy and fire, and then remount the mortars in order to move to another location, when one tries to access the mortars for firing, some if not all of the mortar HT's may say "Destroyed", while other mortar HT's are able to accept mortar fire orders normally.  Witnessed in a CMBN game.  Saved game file available.

27)  Special sniper ammo like "50cal" and "338 Lapua Magnum" etc. is not available for resupply.

[Redwolf]

@Erwin That is a mix of engine feature requests, straight bug reports and known misbehavior of the existing engine.

To start easy, the following are straight bugs, most of them known, but I don't know which have been officially reported: 3, 6, 7, 15, 16 (more detail needed, name the teams), 26.
 

[Redwolf]

1 hour ago, Erwin said:

8 ) Heavy arty falling on top of enemy troops often doesn't incapacitate them.  While it's true that shrapnel may miss, the shock wave of a large explosion alone is usually deadly as it can liquefy one's innards.

We were just discussing this over at FGM. 

https://www.thefewgoodmen.com/thefgmforum/threads/light-and-medium-on-map-mortars.34005/

It started with small HE being surprisingly effective compared to big HE, and a consensus seems to be that big HE is not effective enough. I personally find unwounded infantry at the bottom of fresh craters.

[Bulletpoint]

1 hour ago, Redwolf said:

I personally find unwounded infantry at the bottom of fresh craters.

I noticed the same, but I think it's actually because troops tend to seek cover in craters when they automatically fall back. I do agree with bigger HE often feeling like damp squibs though. I've seen 105mm arty go off literally right next to running troops, and nothing happened to them. 150mm bursting in low trees right above the heads of troops, causing  a total of 1 yellow casualty, etc.

[Redwolf]

For me, the most important thing to implement in engine v5 is VCR controls (rewind etc) for TCP/IP multiplayer.

I can live with the technical limitations and framerates as they are. A close second is a port to Macs with the M1 processor.

[Artkin]

18 minutes ago, Redwolf said:

For me, the most important thing to implement in engine v5 is VCR controls (rewind etc) for TCP/IP multiplayer.

The replay feature is one of the "Must Haves" for CMx2. It was done for PE so....

[Redwolf]

 

1 minute ago, Artkin said:

The replay feature is one of the "Must Haves" for CMx2. It was done for PE so....

What is PE?

[Vanir Ausf B]

6 hours ago, Redwolf said:

It started with small HE being surprisingly effective compared to big HE, and a consensus seems to be that big HE is not effective enough. I personally find unwounded infantry at the bottom of fresh craters.

 

4 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

I noticed the same, but I think it's actually because troops tend to seek cover in craters when they automatically fall back. I do agree with bigger HE often feeling like damp squibs though. I've seen 105mm arty go off literally right next to running troops, and nothing happened to them. 150mm bursting in low trees right above the heads of troops, causing  a total of 1 yellow casualty, etc.

The relationship between shell size and effectiveness is non-linear. For example, British 140mm has 6.8x more HE filler than 88mm (5.4 kg and .8 kg respectively) but is only about 2.5x as lethal.

https://nigelef.tripod.com/wt_of_fire.htm

Edited November 4, 2021 by Vanir Ausf B

[Artkin]

3 hours ago, Redwolf said:

 

What is PE?

Combat Mission Professional Edition, made for the UK Fight Club.

[Redwolf]

21 minutes ago, Artkin said:

Combat Mission Professional Edition, made for the UK Fight Club.

That thing has VCR controls in TCP?
That would make me very happy as it sounds like it could be ported over to PE (personal edition :)).

[Redwolf]

1 hour ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

 

The relationship between shell size and effectiveness is non-linear. For example, British 140mm has 6.8x more HE filler than 88mm (5.4 kg and .8 kg respectively) but is only about 2.5x as lethal.

https://nigelef.tripod.com/wt_of_fire.htm

That's actually mostly linear to the power of 3 for the HE filler (plus the thinner mortar outer shell), as it should be for volume. And linear to power of 2 for the lethality, which is also correct because of the 2D shockwave.

[chuckdyke]

Just a replay to test 30 Katyusha rockets right on the spot where I know a foxhole with an MG42 is. Sure enough nothing happened. I think you need a contact first before area fire becomes effective. It is the protocol I use now. That is when you play the AI. Call the strike move to contact with infantry before the adjustment phase. 

[Artkin]

30 minutes ago, Redwolf said:

That thing has VCR controls in TCP?
That would make me very happy as it sounds like it could be ported over to PE (personal edition :)).

I dont think it's that exactly, but as far as I understand you're able to combine your turns and watch them together, rather than loading every single file over and over again.

[Commanderski]

Whether this can be an Engine 5 update or a regular update to a patch I would like a message box to pop up to display what the FO is saying (in English) when you are using artillery. It's nice to have all the different nations in their own native language but you are obviously missing some vital information if you lose LOS or if something happens that delays or cancels your arty and you don't have a clue as to what they are saying.

[RMM]

3 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Just a replay to test 30 Katyusha rockets right on the spot where I know a foxhole with an MG42 is. Sure enough nothing happened. I think you need a contact first before area fire becomes effective. It is the protocol I use now. That is when you play the AI. Call the strike move to contact with infantry before the adjustment phase. 

I supremely hope that's not the case; otherwise, what's the point of plotting preparatory arty before the first turn of the battle!

[chuckdyke]

10 minutes ago, RMM said:

what's the point of plotting preparatory arty before the first turn of the battle!

First preparatory arty is effective when you play a human. With the AI I am not sure, it is possible he created a trigger to man foxholes and trenches when I crossed a line. Besides I think it is a good practice to postpone the barrage till your patrol shoot hypothetically a flare. You have 15 minutes and it goes quicker to adjust a barrage. You risk an FO but it is part of the game. Let him be close but not too close.