Western Allies vs Soviets Expansion Module

[MikeyD]

Ah, there's an issue I recall was brought up a loooooong time ago.
Doing this as a 'module' would mean sales is restricted to ONLY people who already had the basegame (are we talking CMFB or CMRT?). Players with no interest in the original title but are hot for early cold war would first have to purchase the WWII title before getting their super-module to work. It would be easier to just call the thing by a new name, give it a new splash screen, and go on from there.

I recall this was an issue when CMFB was first announced. "Why a new title? Why not just extend CMBN?" The answer was you'd be forcing people with no interest in Normandy to purchase the Normandy title in order to play Bulge. BFC did do something similar to that extending CMFI from 1943 into 1945. And the title turned into a monster. A fun-to-pay monster but a monster nonetheless.

[SimpleSimon]

 Indeed it's tempting to view the modules as low-logistic alternatives to a full release but I think it's been shown that this isn't necessarily true or universal. 

[com-intern]

Yea the module thought process I think is wrongheaded. It would make more sense for it to just be a stand-alone game priced out slightly lower.
 

• No Campaign
• No pre-made scenarios (well maybe 1-2 because I figure you'd need to run some tests)
• Label it "Empty Edition" or something like that
• $45

If you buy it you get end of war American and Soviet army formations. QBs, maybe master maps. That is it. Leave up to the community to build out scenarios and maps.

Make up some story line about Patton going off the reservation and dragging W. Allies into fait accompli war with the Soviet Union, or alternatively Stalin wanting all of Berlin. 3 months of combat from May-August until both sides go to the negotiating table having decided that extended WW2 is not what anyone wants.

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by com-intern
edit

[SimpleSimon]

If everyone's interested btw Armored Brigade covers most of the periods discussed in this thread and is on sale today on Steam.

It's 2D, but it's extremely, extremely Combat-Mission esque. I just grabbed it today, and I do not feel it will take long to learn. Shame that it isn't 3D which makes it harder to communicate terrain and unit dispositions to the player...

[Aurelius]

We don't need a story. Just an opportunity to play Late war USSR formations against Late war Western Allies formations. The rest we can make up ourselves! 

[SimpleSimon]

Aurelius is right. It's really unnecessary to overthink the geopolitical background of whatever is motivating a conflict between West and East for a video game. All of that stuff would be above the paygrades the games depict right up to the highest levels in game. Battalion commanders and below need not concern themselves with whatever metaphorical kettle has finally blown its lid and graduated from a crisis into a full on war. All they need to know is that about 50 T-64s and an accompanying Motor Rifle Brigade are charging the forest road toward your position. En avant! 

Edited February 25, 2020 by SimpleSimon

[Glubokii Boy]

Maybe BFC fears that a 'lightweight' release like this will have some sort of a negative impact on a future release of a true, full sized 

COMBAT MISSION FULGA GAP - basegame with additional modules...

I don't think it will...The time frames could be set quite a bit appart. I would by both ! 

 

 

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Not that it matters since Steve has made it more than clear Fulda Gap is not anything they'll do, it would have zero effect on any future game family since we're only talking about late WWII Allied OOB (as it currently exists) ported into RT or Soviet OOB (as it currently exists) ported into FB.

 

[civdiv]

On 2/19/2020 at 8:56 PM, MikeyD said:

As an example of how complicated a title like this can get, here's a pict of a cast hull M4A1 76mm with HVSS suspension. First shipped to Europe in April 45 but never saw combat. There's also the HVSS M4A3 105mm howitzer version that also never saw combat. Then there's the really obscure American Hybrid hull Sherman mounting the British 17 pounder! (GASP!) Also sent into the theater too late to see combat. On the Russian side there's the IS-3 of course but also the T-44 which was being produced but didn't seen combat. If this title were to start May 1945 then things get very complicated very quickly.

Many of those were just combat trials so they don’t need to be included.

I’d be semi interested but my first choice would be an entirely new project; early war on both fronts.

[Erwin]

2 hours ago, civdiv said:

my first choice would be an entirely new project; early war on both fronts.

+1   Much of the gameplay with the mid to late war period is very similar.  Early war units were essentially experimental as armies had to figure out how to best use armor etc.  It usually took more than one shot to kill, and there were huge mismatches where armies (Germans in particular) had to learn how to combat other nations' tanks that on paper were superior.  So, lots of new and interesting challenges and new tactics to explore.

Regrettably it's hard to see getting early war products earlier than 5 years... and by then there may be a need to start on CM3.  CM1 was made obsolete in 2007 after a 6-7 year life when CMSF was released .  CM2 is now 13(!) years old...  

[Glubokii Boy]

43 minutes ago, Erwin said:

+1   Much of the gameplay with the mid to late war period is very similar.  Early war units were essentially experimental as armies had to figure out how to best use armor etc.  It usually took more than one shot to kill, and there were huge mismatches where armies (Germans in particular) had to learn how to combat other nations' tanks that on paper were superior.  So, lots of new and interesting challenges and new tactics to explore.

 

Agree with this !!!

100 % 

[Sublime]

we've kicked this idea around for years.  Id come back to CM over it.

As it is now meh  I think it needs a new engine..

[Sogamg]

New member here,hello to all.
I would prefer a real life historical setting.
Early war,North Africa ,Pacific,or later theaters like Korea or Vietnam.
But if it was for a hypothetical setting I would prefer a cold war 80s setting.

[z1812]

14 hours ago, Sublime said:

we've kicked this idea around for years.  Id come back to CM over it.

As it is now meh  I think it needs a new engine..

I agree that it is time for a new engine. However, releasing the the Allied and Russian Forces in a "pack"  with existing maps, and relying on the community to provide scenarios and campaigns as suggested in this thread, might provide a income stream while working on the new engine. 

There may be other "creative approaches" to using what is already available to create new products.

[Harry Speakup]

How long are you willing to wait for a new engine, and how many years before it gets around to a hypothetical alt-history idea such as this?

A "Patton's Dream" 1945 Soviet pack for CMFB would seem a relatively easy option, since all the TOE and modelling work has already been done for Fire and Rubble. Whether Steve thinks it's viable and worthwhile doing is another thing.

[Sublime]

On 3/3/2020 at 10:48 AM, z1812 said:

I agree that it is time for a new engine. However, releasing the the Allied and Russian Forces in a "pack"  with existing maps, and relying on the community to provide scenarios and campaigns as suggested in this thread, might provide a income stream while working on the new engine. 

There may be other "creative approaches" to using what is already available to create new products.

I totally agree they need a new engine.  HOWEVER @MOS:96B2P and the others. The idea is brilliant..  If I was BFC Id cancel all projects except ones VERY close to release and work on a new engine.

MOS idea is perfect though. Itd be a great source of cash flow, the community would make battles, and frankly the maps and QBs would be fine anyways.  Theyd have the TO&E of allies, end of war germans stragglers (put them on allied AND russian side and make optional )  and port it as a battle pack - combining the 2 armies to fight. 

No back story, NOTHING. that all can be fleshed out by the community. Just PUT THE EASTERN FRONT AND WESTERN FRONT TO&Es together, Take Half of the BoB maps and half the FB to Berlin maps job jobbed.

sell it for 10 a copy. Id pay 20 for a copy and gift one to someone else. BFC gets some cash, Im not a comp guy but cannot see how this would take more than week or two tops and they could have it out the door perhaps faster than anything else.

Itd also itch the hell out of a scratch many of us have been having

as others have said. NO BACKSTORY NO NEW MAPS OR UNITS. JUST COMBINE THEM.  The community will do the rest.. Ill gladly shell that money out for that. And TBH I have WAAAAAY more interest in that than some other projects.  I really really looked forward to end of the war in Germany.  I no longer do.  end of war germany has always ad a fascination for me. I dont think urban combats there in x2.  I WOULD look forward to this..

 

[Blazing 88's]

On 3/3/2020 at 9:48 AM, z1812 said:

I agree that it is time for a new engine. However, releasing the the Allied and Russian Forces in a "pack"  with existing maps, and relying on the community to provide scenarios and campaigns as suggested in this thread, might provide a income stream while working on the new engine. 

There may be other "creative approaches" to using what is already available to create new products.

Just some vehicle /armor packs for earlier time periods and the modding /scenario creating community would take care of the rest.... (dreaming NA, France and Barbarossa).
Sigh.... with a wisp of a weep.

Edited March 4, 2020 by Blazing 88's

[Harry Speakup]

1 hour ago, Sublime said:

Im not a comp guy but cannot see how this would take more than week or two tops

Can I hear the heavy sound of Steve banging his head against the desk from 3,000 miles away?

I think it would take longer, and would need thoroughly testing to avoid the inevitable rage posts when things don't work as expected.

[Sublime]

perhaps.

but again seriously - the greatest part and Im quoting steve myself over the 20 years Ive been here-  the greatest amount of time spent is TO&E and 3d modelling and creating maps.

Theres PLENTY of RT, and FB maps.  Theyre gonna release the end of war for both RT and FB too.  So ALL that is done.  The engine is done.  What testing besides making sure the game works would be needed? no new mechanics, nothing.   Just literally porting over forces from one title using the same engine and patches, and the other and combining them.  Maybe 2 weeks was ridiculous - but are you seriously arguing such a venture wouldnt be endlessly easier than even a module, be very rapid compared to any release ( though they stated work didnt begin six years ago its been SIX years since RT got any updated new content module wise for example.. 4 for BS... ) and thats just facts

 

edit PS @Harry Speakup wait... so you post 2 posts above mine basically agreeing totally with my sentiment - then post basically implying Im a moron... because what I admit Im not a programmer and was off on my timeline? chill out man, so what if its heavily exagerrated as you note in YOUR OWN POST its ridiculously easier than ANY other alternative, and is almost guaranteed to sell.  10 dollars is me dreaming I know full well me and most here would easily pay 40 for such a thing

I also dont know if youre aware but the mission makers for BFC - most of the missions and campaigns you get they do for free..

Edited March 5, 2020 by Sublime

[Bulletpoint]

The way it could work from a business perspective is if they made it as a module.

But I think the reason why they don't do this is that the way they set things up technically, if they want to combine two different OOBs, they'd have to do a new base game.

If they priced this new base game at 10 dollars, it would become a discount option that undercut the rest of the business. A lot of people just buying that game for cheap and not bothering to buy any of the full price releases.

If they released it at full price, but without campaigns, scenarios, etc, only very few people would buy it.

Agree or disagree, I think this is their current line of thinking.

[Sublime]

I can see that.  But I can also see them marketting this soft - I mean christ I never heard of the rome to finish expansion at all!

be clear its ONLY COMBINING THE FORCES - and is a 'gift' for their loyal fanbase thats been asking for it

Be VERY CLEAR that it ships with units, qbs, and maps, but NO SCENARIOS - that buyers will need to accept they'll have to rely on the community IF THEY CHOOSE -

Then Also clearly say - THIS IS A SEPERATE TITLE - E.G> 35 bucks WHATEVER - And also make CLEAR - This will Be it MOST LIKELY

I see little bitching that wont immediately be shot down by ' you were warned clearly'

I dont see any reason not to do it.  Itd bring money, itd be quicker than any option at all I can think of, and frankly I doubt most wouldnt buy it.  A hard core ( i.e. most the forum) would cave and buy it whether or not they admit it now, and within 3 months with a few campaigns itd start getting reviews.  This is also a theater of gaming that hasnt been done, but is a HUGE favorite of what if historians and gamers.  Itd be the ONLY game on this level that EVER covered anything like it.  That alone is a selling point.

Im biased because I want it, but honestly, if the RT expansion came out before my burn out in 2016 Id have played it disgust with MOUT aside.  But Im no longer excited for it. that says alot since gotterdamerung is one of my favorite ww2 'episodes'

Frankly  Im sad to say, ME PERSONALLY, am not excited by anything they have announced for once in my life the first time.  This would because its almost a fetish idea of mine.  Otherwise a new engine would.  Beyond that... I hope maybe I get the urge to play again, because its just no longer there. kinda sucks.

[Attilaforfun]

Warhammer Total War has a free campaign that requires ownership of both WH:TW1 and WH:TW2. This could be the same. Except the free part. No new game needed.

[landser]

 

42 minutes ago, Attilaforfun said:

Warhammer Total War has a free campaign that requires ownership of both WH:TW1 and WH:TW2. This could be the same. Except the free part. No new game needed.

Mortal Empires is great, and better all the time!

I doubt the idea being floated here would see the light of day, and I wouldn't buy it anyway. But it's an interesting discussion.