Russian army under equipped?

[ikalugin]

13 minutes ago, kinophile said:

I would be very interested in @Haiduk's input on that. 

I don't think that we have met on these forums so to speak (while I do visit this thread now, I don't visit others), but I would welcome any constructive input. We may have differing views on the matter however, we would see how it goes.

Edited June 29, 2016 by ikalugin

[Battlefront.com]

Yup, if the Russian military does one thing more impressively than any other nation it is a combined arms river crossing.  Though the river banks are always optimal for such demonstrations, but that's to be expected in an exercise

Steve

[ikalugin]

19 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

Yup, if the Russian military does one thing more impressively than any other nation it is a combined arms river crossing.  Though the river banks are always optimal for such demonstrations, but that's to be expected in an exercise

Steve

That is footage of a competition, not an exercise.

Readiness exercises are now done without warning, over unfamiliar terrain, after the long marches (ie by marching units several thousands of km to a semi randomly selected exercise area). There are also such exercises with the reservists.

Edited June 29, 2016 by ikalugin

[John Kettler]

HUSKER2142,

Most impressive and neatly illustrates why removal of most Russian bridging equipment entirely from the theater was a major US/NATO requirement of the CAFE Treaty. And did you know the US now campaigns a copy of the Russian PMP-1 floating bridge?

ikalugin,

If nobody's cheating (something several sources have reported as rife in the Red Army) on the no-notice exercises, then that's some hard core training taking place. The move alone would be very taxing on troops and equipment alike. Presumably, the tracked vehicles are on tank transporters? Otherwise, I'd think there would be consternation about the resultant hit on service life.

Regards,

John Kettler

 

[Battlefront.com]

4 hours ago, ikalugin said:

That is footage of a competition, not an exercise.

Yes, that was obvious from the strange camouflage the soldiers wore   I meant to ask... did yellow or blue win?

4 hours ago, ikalugin said:

Readiness exercises are now done without warning, over unfamiliar terrain, after the long marches (ie by marching units several thousands of km to a semi randomly selected exercise area). There are also such exercises with the reservists.

Yup, and that is a lot more useful than the same exercises year after year.  One thing that Russia has an advantage in is the ability for the military to do almost anything it wants at any time and any place.  In the West this is not possible.  Residents would sue the government.  I'd put a smiley face here, but I am being very serious.  Lawsuits have (in the past at least) greatly restricted military training activities.  Aircraft, for example, can not engage afterburners over populated areas or during certain times of the day/night.  I know because there is a training path that is approved fairly near my house.  Every once and a while we hear the booms from afterburners.

Anyway, as I said the Russian military is probably more prepared for river crossings than any other force I can think of.  It has been that way for decades.

Steve

[Haiduk]

9 hours ago, kinophile said:

I would be very interested in @Haiduk's input on that. 

That's mostly right. If we say about new equipment production. Our military industry was almost ruined for 25 years - we have lack of new equipment, tecnologies and designer, engineer and qualified worker personnnel. But since 2015 some steps in this way already were done.

But not correct to compare quantity of mothballed equipment in 2013 and 2016 and list its decreasing as "losses, which Ukraine industry couldn't substain". This is similar to Janes (?) report about huge decreasing of Ukrainian jets in 2014-2015 - in several times more then realy was shot down during the war. But all explain simply - all these armades of jets are just mothballed and most part of "lost" jets were just decomissioned. Its are disassembling for spare parts, which go to repair of other mothballed jets, which prepare to return in service. The same with ground equipment. Its not true, that Ukraine industry couldn't substain losses in vehicles, artillery, etc. All brigades, which exists before war now have quantity of equipment, close to full. Worth with new formed brigades. About half of them have got "motorized infantry" status instead "mechanized" - its has just one company in each battalion on armored vehicles, all other moved on different trucks. 

Situation with new vehicles also сomplicated by long and bureaucratic procedure of new equipment adopting in MoD - for example, BTR-3E, Dozor-B officially didn't adopt, so Army can't order it, just small quantity "in experimental usage". Unlike National Gurd, which can order anything what they want. So we have paradoxal situation - army on frontline with old 100 times repaired vehicles and National Gurd, which since 2015 not in action, equipped with BTR-4, BTR-3, new armored KRAZ trucks and big number of KRAZ-Strteit Group armored cars.

But from the other hand, most of our brigades have tracked IFV and its can't be simply changed to APCs - this will cause "global" changes in tactic, maintenance, logistic, TO&E structure, so new APCs critically need mostly for recons, airmobile and marines. Thus, our BMP-2 will serve long time. MoD almost not interest BMP-1UM with new RWS and "Nozh-L" ERA, designed by Zhytomyr tank repair factory. No money.  Possibly "Azov Engineer Group" can design heavy BMP ? Now they work togeher with MoD in this direction... 

Edited June 30, 2016 by Haiduk

[ikalugin]

We could independetly make lists of repaired and newly built equipment items and then compare them. How does this sound?

[ikalugin]

8 hours ago, John Kettler said:

HUSKER2142,

Most impressive and neatly illustrates why removal of most Russian bridging equipment entirely from the theater was a major US/NATO requirement of the CAFE Treaty. And did you know the US now campaigns a copy of the Russian PMP-1 floating bridge?

ikalugin,

If nobody's cheating (something several sources have reported as rife in the Red Army) on the no-notice exercises, then that's some hard core training taking place. The move alone would be very taxing on troops and equipment alike. Presumably, the tracked vehicles are on tank transporters? Otherwise, I'd think there would be consternation about the resultant hit on service life.

Regards,

John Kettler

 

Cheating is difficult, because you 1) don't know when or where you are going prior to the more 2) if the move is long range it is unlikely that you would have local contacts in the training area.

The long range deployments are done mostly by rail. This allows troops to train for strategic re deployments, as those are done mostly by rail here and the difference between a 300 and 3000km move is fairly minor.

 

[Battlefront.com]

7 hours ago, Haiduk said:

That's mostly right.

Thanks for that!  That is my understanding as well... reviving mothballed equipment has taken precedence over new production for a variety of reasons (cost being a major one).  This results in the Ukrainian ground forces being fully equipped, but largely with outdated equipment.  Considering where Ukraine started in 2013 and the losses it suffered during the Russian counter offensive in August 2014, there has been a massive net increase in vehicles fielded.  Again, in most cases older vehicles simply made functional (no updating), but still an increase.  In terms of combat effectiveness, it's always better to have something than to have nothing.

Steve

[HUSKER2142]

John Kettler , Yes, I know that the majority simply copied floating bridge with soviet model. More this bridge really helped the Egyptian army during the 1973 Arab-Israeli war.

^{Да знаю что большинство просто скопировали плавучий мост с советского образца .  Ещё этот мост очень помог Египетской армии во время арабо-израильской войны 1973 года .} 

 

 

[HUSKER2142]

14 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Yes, that was obvious from the strange camouflage the soldiers wore   I meant to ask... did yellow or blue win?

 

More interesting will be in August, when the competition will be between the countries of Russia, India, China and etc. 

Such competitions like me, then cooperation and exchange of experience thing. For the arms manufacturers advertising.

 

^{Интереснее будет в августе , когда соревнование будет между странами Россия , Белорусия , Китай и т.д.} 

^{Такие соревнования мне нравятся , тут сотрудничество и главное обмен опытом . Для производителей вооружения реклама .}

[Kinophile]

@ikalugin @Haiduk @BTR there seems to a very solid  accumulating body of information on the UKR ground forces. 

Perhaps it is time to consolidate it all into a single thread. 

[Sgt Joch]

This is getting interesting.

So what is the best current open source guess on the number of operational UKR tanks? 

WIKI says 600 T64 including 100 Bulats and 10 Oplots.

[ikalugin]

1 hour ago, Sgt Joch said:

This is getting interesting.

So what is the best current open source guess on the number of operational UKR tanks? 

WIKI says 600 T64 including 100 Bulats and 10 Oplots.

That is the military balance data for 2016 (there are additional T72s and T80s this does not account for). Same data for 2013 was 1100 tanks. Same comparison of the two reports provides ~50 percent equipment losses on average.

Edited June 30, 2016 by ikalugin

[ikalugin]

3 hours ago, kinophile said:

@ikalugin @Haiduk @BTR there seems to a very solid  accumulating body of information on the UKR ground forces. 

Perhaps it is time to consolidate it all into a single thread. 

In the grim dark future when my report is complete and published you could discuss it at your leasure. At the moment, personally, I have very little interest in discussing anything in multiple threads, in fact this is the only thread that I post in now adays on the only forum that I am active on.

[Kinophile]

5 hours ago, ikalugin said:

In the grim dark future when my report is complete and published you could discuss it at your leasure. At the moment, personally, I have very little interest in discussing anything in multiple threads, in fact this is the only thread that I post in now adays on the only forum that I am active on.

You bet! Looking forward to it! 

[Battlefront.com]

A sign of both Russia's legacy of incompetence/corruption in the military as well as a sign that there's some new attempts to change it...

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2016/06/30/Russia-dismisses-50-high-ranking-officers-of-Baltic-Fleet/1261467292656/

If the Russian government's stated account is (mostly) accurate then it seems there's a chance for improvement in the Baltic fleet.  However, I have to wonder if higher authorities allowed things to get so bad in such a large and important part of the Russian military, what are things like in other parts of the Russian military?

Steve

[antaress73]

The Baltic fleet is a mostly brown water navy. It's not as important or powerful as the Northern fleet or pacific or even black sea fleet . ( even the caspian sea  fleet maybe ). It was neglected but it seems this is about to change.

[Sgt Joch]

The Russian Navy is not the only one with a corruption problem, up to 30 U.S.N. admirals are under investigation in the "Fat Leonard" bribery/corruption scandal.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/wp/2016/05/27/fat-leonard/

[Battlefront.com]

9 hours ago, antaress73 said:

The Baltic fleet is a mostly brown water navy. It's not as important or powerful as the Northern fleet or pacific or even black sea fleet . ( even the caspian sea  fleet maybe ). It was neglected but it seems this is about to change.

For sure it is the least important of Russia's naval fleets, mostly because the second there's a war it will cease to have a function (if it even remains floating).  The point I was making is as an indication of how far Russia still has to go to bring corruption under control within the military.

3 hours ago, Sgt Joch said:

The Russian Navy is not the only one with a corruption problem, up to 30 U.S.N. admirals are under investigation in the "Fat Leonard" bribery/corruption scandal.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/wp/2016/05/27/fat-leonard/

Yesh.  Missed that one.  The article shows the primary problem... the right guy in the right place offering the right things with the right resources can do incredible damage because Humans are inherently corruptible.  Then once he gets them hooked they are hooked for life because even admitting they got an expensive gift is a big deal.  Er, which is why gifts are illegal since they are a gtateway to bigger things.

From the very, very little information that the Russian media has put out about the Baltic Fleet problems it seems it went beyond graft and went into neglect of operational capabilities.  Something that, even with the information leaks, doesn't seem to be the case in the USN scandal.  But graft is graft and it is always bad for national security.  Too bad the days of making traitors and thieves walk the plank are behind us.  I'd not mind a few more sharks with full bellies.

Steve

[Haiduk]

19 hours ago, Sgt Joch said:

This is getting interesting.

So what is the best current open source guess on the number of operational UKR tanks? 

WIKI says 600 T64 including 100 Bulats and 10 Oplots.

We never have 100 Bulats. Only 85 tanks and 10 T-64BM2 (early "cheap" version of Bulat), which were removed from line units for training purposes. 20 Bulats were lost during 2014-2015 (17 destroyed and 3 captured). Some time ago I seen photos of T-64BM2 under repair works, so looks like these type also now involving to service. 10 Oplots is wrong informatiion. Means 10 T-84 Oplot (not confuse with later BM Oplot or T-84 Oplot-M). Its were ordered in 2001, but army didn't pay for them and after first appearance on parade in 2001 tanks were returned back to Malyshev tank factory. Four tanks soon were sold to USA. Two were moved in military academies. Four were placed in boxes of 92th mech.brigade. Now assumed decision about partial upgrading remain T-84 to the level, close to BM Oplot. I don't know what it will include. Also, I suppose, these tanks will be directed to training centers. Perspectives of appearance of real BM Oplot in Ukrainian army still foggy... Defense program has a line about 10 BM Oplot up to 2017, but too hard producing of Oplots for Thailand make many experts very pessimistic... 

Edited July 1, 2016 by Haiduk

[John Kettler]

Sgt Joch,

I'd read an investigative piece last month if not earlier on this super scandal. What you provided makes the other look like an abstract by comparison. What a horror story for the Navy and a cautionary tale of the first order for anyone in logistics. Worse, NCIS was infiltrated, too. Let's hope Fat Leonard wasn't also selling intel on the side. FSB would certainly have ponied up significant funds to get some of that classified material. I hope all Navy personnel involved get jail, fines, rank reductions, hits to retirement, etc. I especially hope the senior officers suffer as above, rather than the usual forced into retirement, avoiding jail and all the other punishment customarily meted out to enlisted offenders. What a pity keelhauling was abolished, along with flogging. I believe both would've been excellent messages to others never to stray. And because I believe greater responsibility betrayed merits more severe punishment, I would make the vessel size under which to be keelhauled reflect the relative gravity of the offenses!

Haiduk,

Though my head's about to explode from the complexity and qualifying statements in your most detailed discussion, I'm going to risk worsening that state by asking you this: Who in the US bought the T-64s? US government or private purchaser/s?

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited July 1, 2016 by John Kettler

[Wicky]

41 minutes ago, John Kettler said:

.... Let's hope Fat Leonard wasn't also selling intel on the side. FSB would certainly have ponied up significant funds to get some of that classified material. I hope all Navy personnel involved get jail, fines, rank reductions, hits to retirement, etc. I especially hope the senior officers suffer as above, rather than the usual forced into retirement, avoiding jail and all the other punishment customarily meted out to enlisted offenders. What a pity keelhauling was abolished, along with flogging. I believe both would've been excellent messages to others never to stray. And because I believe greater responsibility betrayed merits more severe punishment, I would make the vessel size under which to be keelhauled reflect the relative gravity of the offenses!...

Don''t you claim to have sources in 'high places' that give you info that you publish for profit?

[Battlefront.com]

1 hour ago, Wicky said:

Don''t you claim to have sources in 'high places' that give you info that you publish for profit?

Let's not start that again, OK?

Steve

[Sgt Joch]

"Fat Leonard" is a very juicy scandal, really looking forward to the movie.