Russian army under equipped?

[General Melchid]

You seem to intentionally miss the point. Until Russia actions it was considered that the days of Europe's borders and government's being changed by outside invasion was over , and consigned to the dark pages of history.

Russia has reopened a Pandora's box by breaking that agreement; and has demonstrated that any treaty with it is not worth the paper it is written on.

This to me is a step backwards and not the actions of a modern 'democratic' state. Talk 1st; guns as last resort, not the other way round.

Edited June 11, 2016 by General Melchid
spelling as allways

[VladimirTarasov]

Just now, General Melchid said:

You seem to intentionally miss the point. Until Russia actions it was considered that the days of Europe's borders and government's being change by outside invasion was over , and consigned to the dark pages of history.

Russia has reopened a Pandora's box by breaking that agreement; and has demonstrated that any treaty with it is not worth the paper it is written on.

This to me is a step backwards and not the actions of a modern 'democratic' state. Talk 1st; guns as last resort, not the other way round.

I'm not going to say that what the Russian Federation did in Crimea didn't break international laws, although a lot of people in Crimea supported this. So internationally yes Russia broke the law, but as long as the people support it, I support it too.

[General Melchid]

So again if a Russian region peoples supported leaving that would justify foreign country to interfere inside Russian borders?

This way lies war and madness surely you see that?

[sburke]

Jeez you really have an interesting bent on things.  The major similarity between Afghanistan and Ukraine is that in both Russia invaded a sovereign nation to impose a gov't of it's choosing.  There always seems to be some justification that is generally poorly documented if at all and even more usually totally contradictory.  You fit your logic to match your desires.  No wonder Russia is such a mess if this is how what I would consider the most open minded of it's population thinks.  Truly sad.

8 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

So internationally yes Russia broke the law, but as long as the people support it, I support it too.

So you don't have any view of standing on principle or moral grounds - the mob rules?  You have no idea how depressing that sounds to the West.  It essentially means Russia can't be negotiated with.  The country simply needs to be isolated from the rest of the world to limit the harm it can  do to others as essentially it has become a bully nation.  In case you didn't notice there was a large movement in the west opposed to the war in Iraq.  We have had trials (admittedly short circuited by political leadership) for illegal intervention actions (Iran Contra).  There seems to be no such desire in Russia and those that do argue for it are risking execution by the state.

I hate to sound pissy, but you guys deserve Putin.  We on the other hand don't so I know I'll be pressing my congressional representative to support strengthening NATO even if it means I pay more taxes.

Edited June 11, 2016 by sburke

[BTR]

1 hour ago, VladimirTarasov said:

I'm not going to say that what the Russian Federation did in Crimea didn't break international laws, although a lot of people in Crimea supported this. So internationally yes Russia broke the law, but as long as the people support it, I support it too.

Doing what Russia did in Crimea was only possible due to overwhelming popular support of these actions by the locals, and as such was the right thing to do. This has in part been reflected by the absolutely astounding defection rate of the Ukrainian military personnel post Crimean operations. Over 70% of all military personnel remained in Crimea and restructured to Russian service. International law and non-intervention principles over the past 100 years have not been more then a nice ideal used selectively to either counter or forward a specific point of agenda. Very unfortunate, but in light of doing something right they are simply suggestive as they are. 

[Wicky]

So Putin is returning to the good ol' days:

Declaration of the Government of the USSR on the Principles of Development and Further Strengthening of Friendship and Cooperation between the Soviet Union and other Socialist States

Keep your friends near and your enemies even closer... and we'll pop in anytime we fancy...

Never mind Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine and Ukrainian sovereignty referendum, 1991

Edited June 11, 2016 by Wicky

[General Melchid]

So international law and treaties means nothing, might makes right.

I can't believe that this is general Russian opinion, are we really going to replay the cold-war again? War via proxies and all the other horrible brinkmanship?

And again it's not a fight Russian can afford; if you believe in might=right. the NATO nations have a lot more money=might . So should we just take Konigsberg back and help the Finns take Karelia? Should we fund the Caucasus states to break away, where does the madness stop? 

[Sgt Joch]

7 minutes ago, General Melchid said:

So international law and treaties means nothing, might makes right.

Not sure why you are so surprised. How is that any different from the last 5,000 years of human history?

"international law" has always been a malleable concept and the States interpret it as it suits their national interest.

Look at the U.S. decision to invade Iraq or what    is happening right now in the South China Sea with the Chinese unilaterally taking over territory.

 

 

 

[General Melchid]

Yea you're probably right I always have been a idealist.

I just really thought we had learnt something a after the last World War ,  but looks like we are just aiming for a repeat performance; I find it depressing.

[Holien]

humans being humans, history repeats itself as humans basically are the same the world over and patterns of behaviour repeat again and again. 

[Sublime]

I disagree. The cycle will be broken -we.ll annihilate ourselves eventually. Remember the means to do so have oly been around 70 years and look at how many super close to apocalypse incidents we had already * that we even know of *

I can think of the Cuban Crisis 62 in general plus the sub with Archkipov was on.  Checkpoint Charlie ( year before I know)

Op Ryan.  The incident at the early warning center when the IR satelites malafunctioned and the Soviet officer in charge kept belaying orders to start massive retaliation. If i was rich Id send that guy 100k just to do it.  Theres more you get the idea.

[arjuna_r]

Hey so it's Euro 2016 (the football/soccer). I hear the Russians intend to launch a few ballistic missiles at England tonight!  

[Kinophile]

Ukrainian war crimes are a reality, ignored by the Western media and deserving of prosecution by the Hague. US war crimes in Iraq area terrible reality and also deserve prosecution. ALL war crimes are, including Russia's. The UA's heavy, stupid response by shelling civilian areas badly accelerated public opinion against the Kiev government. Honestly, if the Canadian army indiscriminately shelled north Toronto and blew up my friends, scared the **** out of my daughter, and ruined my prospects of work I also would be very angry and open to persuasion. Of course, if I saw Separatist AAA guns firing from beside my daughter's school or our local park, I'd be pretty goddamn angry also.

This stupid and callous attitude to the civilians has been shown by both sides in the Donbass war, and I fully acknowladge that. Currently, at tleast, the UKR is training its forces towards NATO standards, which I believe is already reducing their propensity to shell indiscriminately. Well, I hoope so. At least they are making the effort. The Sep/Rus forces have always, from the start and ever since shelled indiscriminately. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Popular support within Crimea (and as BTR noted about the UKR servicemen there) deserved a referendum and secession if so shown (much as Catalonia, Scotland, etc). 

The same should have happened in the Donbass,

As noted above TALK first, GUNs second.

Putin took Crimea because he could. He interfered in the Donbass because he could. This is justified by nothing else than a portion of the population supported him. This is not sufficient, as a large portion of the Donbass did NOT and were intimidated into not resisting. The ignorant and stupid UKR response by a government distracted with re-establishing law and order in Kiev completely failed that non-Putin-adoring section of the Donbass population.

Please don't use the supposed referendum held by the Donbass republics as a confirmation of independence. That was not a free, open, or transparent affair. It was a shambles, run by incompetents and enforced by thugs. I've voted multiple times in proper, REAL referendums, the Donbass one was a total farce. No one outside Russia believes it was representative of the population at large. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, remove Russia/Putin from the equation and the war stops. If Russia withdrew all support and forces the West could easily prevent the UKR from attacking and a free and open referendum could be held.

But the idea of a democratic, clean vote is anathema to Putin as it directly threatens the legitimacy of his rule and he cannot allow his own people to see what real democracy looks like. 

So the war continues.

 

Edited June 11, 2016 by kinophile

[Peter Cairns]

Russia, partly on the pretext that there are many ethnic Russians their, believes it has the right to intervene in it's neighbours affairs, militarily if necessary to protect it's own           interests or security.  

Most of us think, it doesn't!

Even if that view has majority support in Russia that doesn't make it right. Your Democracy stops at your borders.

I know that on occasions the US disagrees with Canada and Mexico, both of which have lots of US citizeans, but it doesn't interfere let along by proxies or force.....Thought it might build a wall!!!!

Where the US is on soft ground is when it turns a blind eye to Israel's occupation of the West Bank for nearly fifty years to safe guard it's security.

Peter.

[sburke]

6 hours ago, BTR said:

Doing what Russia did in Crimea was only possible due to overwhelming popular support of these actions by the locals, and as such was the right thing to do.

Funny how Russia didn't seem to think it was so absolutely overwhelming to the point they heavily rigged the vote, disenfranchised the Tartar people and shut down all their outlets to representation, had more votes than the voting population etc.  Once again I have to take all the Russian stated positions with a grain of salt as 1 They don't seem to match the reality of how Russia itself perceived the issue by it's actions and 2.The sources are state media which has continually, blatantly lied which most of our Russian posters admit.  If Russia wants to continue to dig a hole for itself in it's international relations by continuing this behavior so be it.  Putin may think Russians can rewrite the rules as Russians see fit but there is a price to pay for that.  As Russia continues to slide to second and third rate power status (and make no mistake despite the Armata circle jerk fest that is where Russia is headed) it's isolation will mean a society more akin to N Korea than what Russia has the potential to be.  So have your parades and Putin bare chested horseback riding porn and enjoy the decline of what should be a scientific and cultural leader.

As to comparing US behavior in Iraq- While I absolutely opposed the war and still feel it was wrong, the US at least went through the motions of obtaining international consensus and left a gov't ostensibly representative of the vote of the Iraqi people.  Yeah it may be totally flawed and dysfunctional, but it was a real vote that included participants completely opposed to the US- so even the worst case US example is still far superior to the fraud Russia committed in Crimea.

[A Canadian Cat]

This has finally become an interesting conversation. For the last year + that these conversations have popped up they have been utterly useless and boring with a hand full of posters denying the basic facts on the ground and totally blocking what the real discussion should be: does one nation have the right to invade another and when is it justifiable and when not? Do the people have a right to demonstrate and force out a government that they either previously support but no longer do or force out one they never truly supported? How should neighbours behave when groups inside a neighbouring country have legitimate grievances with their central government?

We are now closer than we have ever been in an agreement on the basic facts and can have some of that discussion. I have been very curious about the Russian government 's justification (which we still have not heard since they are still denying most if the basic facts) and what Russian citizens feel about it. We are finally actually hearing about the Russian citizens' perspective it a little. Which I find very interesting. Scary but interesting.

Edited June 11, 2016 by IanL
Fix grammar

[Battlefront.com]

12 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

 BS aside what Russia did was indeed illegal in international law and it was similar to Kosovo, although obviously this rebellion did not start off with full Russian support.

There are almost NO similarities between Kosovo and Donbas, no matter how much propaganda the Kremlin tells you there is.  NONE:

1.  Kosovo was part of a REAL civil war that had been going on for many years.  Donbas was started by Russia right from the very start.  There certainly was no civil war prior to Russian invasion of Crimea.

2.  Kosovo was the result of a large number of nations getting together in the UN and trying to come up with solutions, both specific to this conflict and the civil war in general.  Russia did not consult with anybody about Crimea or Donbas.  NOT ONE COUNTRY.  It not only didn't bring this up in the UN, it actively vetoed any attempts by the UN, OSCE, or any other organization to stop the conflict.  In other words, Russia did 100% opposite of the West in Kosovo.

3.  The war in Kosovo was the result of hundreds of years of ethnic conflict.  There was a domestic rebellion that was supported, in part, by Albania (not the West) as they are ethnically the same.  There was no such conflict in Donbas.  The Ukrainian and Russian populations were integrated with each other (though not perfectly of course) and had not had open conflict with each other since the early 1950s.  There was absolutely no indication that an ethnic war was about to start.  In fact, the opposite was true.  Despite all the propaganda that came out of Russian media, before the Russian Federation thugs (not locals) came into Donbas (and even for the first month after) there were mass rallies in support of peace.  They were attacked by Russian Federation nationals over and over again.  Then Russia inserted the same thugs that helped take over Crimea into Donbas and supported them right to the present day.

4.  NATO became involved only after Yugoslavia began repeating the behavior of ethnic cleansing and genocide that it did in Croatia and B-H.  Because of this established track record from current times, not fearing for another episode of mass murder would have been foolish.  NATO acted to stop Yugoslavia from repeating its crimes.  Since Ukraine had no history of this sort of action, and there was no indication of it happening in Donbas, Russia had no similar justification for action.  In fact, Ukrainians were the ones with a better claim  of being victims because Russia had just invaded its territory and back in the early Soviet days murdered millions of Ukrainians.

5.  The NATO action was very short, very targeted, and ended with Yugoslavia signing a peace treaty which included provisions for Kosovo determining its own fate.  This was approved of by the UN under several resolutions.  The opposite is the case in Donbas because Russia refuses to allow anybody to be involved in this except Russia.  At best we have Minsk 1 and Minsk 2, both of which Russian has repeatedly violated and shown it has no intention of honoring.

6.  After nearly 8 YEARS of failed political negotiations, the Kosovo assembly (an internationally recognized governing body) declared independence.  Serbia challenged this in international court and the court found in favor of the assembly's decision.  Russia, on the other hand, tried to set up republics within the Donbas within a few weeks/months of the armed conflict that it started.  These "break away republics" have no international standing at all.  They have rejected all forms of outside monitoring and oversight.  As mentioned, Russia refuses to let anybody else have a say in what is going on within the Donbas.

In short... Kosovo was a legitimate break away from a repressive regime with a very recent history of mass murdering on a huge scale.  Donbas is a continuation of Russia's wars of aggression against its neighbors, in particular the war it started when it invaded Crimea.  Kosovo was largely settled politically with the involvement of the UN, Donbas is to this date being militarily determined by Russia and only Russia.

There is no similarity at all.

 

Quote

Steve, let's face it, people in the US know better not to throw molotov cock tails, bring weapons, attack riot police while they block such aggressive walks toward political buildings.

Of course not.  But that was a very small part of the months of Maidan.  It is the part that Russian propaganda focuses on, of course.  Russian propaganda also doesn't focus on the brutality the police waged upon the peaceful Maidan supporters over many months.  Including kidnapping and murdering protestors.  In fact, I'm going to bet you didn't even know that this happened.

Quote

I'll agree that the drills could have been to show force against the illegal Ukrainian government, and I'll also agree that some units that took place in the drill were used in Crimea. Although snap drills were planned, and the incidents in Kiev just added onto it.

Do not believe in coincidences.  Especially when looking at Russian government actions.  They are calculated and very, very deliberate.  The invasion for Crimea had been on paper since at least 2004 and in the months before the February change of power Russia had recognized that they could not stop the Maidan movement.  Therefore, wheels were put in motion to attack Ukraine months earlier.  Only the timing was undetermined.

Quote

The article just confirms activist leaders being there, every country has its own radicals. Why would these activists have to be sponsored by the Kremlin? 

Because Russia makes sure those radicals exist in the first place.  It's done this all over the place, especially in Georgia.  It is a pattern of behavior that you don't understand because Russian media never discusses it.

Quote

I wasn't being literal when I meant politely, its a term used for the "polite green men." obviously they stormed bases guns at the ready with APCs.

Then obviously these are acts of war, are they not?

Quote

Although no one was killed by Russian troops.

Again I must show that I know more about this crisis and the actions of your government than you do.  A Russian Marine shot and killed a Ukrainian officer during one of the "polite" acts of war against Ukraine:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-military-idUSBREA360GB20140407

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-naval-officer-shot-dead-by-russian-solider-in-crimea-9243306.html

Quote

And there are countless of pictures of people posing with the Russian soldiers supporting them, I don't see them being held at gun point.

Meaningless.  Nobody disputes that the majority of Crimean people supported union with Russia.  The issue is about how it happened.  Russia illegally invaded, made an illegal and illegitimate referendum, and has not offered Ukraine compensation for all the Ukrainian infrastructure and businesses it now possesses.

Also, lots of Austrians were very happy to join with Nazi Germany.  And even Hitler allowed Austrians to vote "no" on the union, even if those no votes were not counted.

Quote

Re Russian cluster bombing video and Ukrainian air strike: 

That is not just to indiscriminate, that's a poor decision on dealing with a military target. Cluster bombing is effective although terrorists have very large groupings on these city blocks. Which of course would not make it right even if one loss of innocent life is lost, and I would condemn such a bombing from the Russian Air Force.

Good, at least we can agree that deliberately targeting a civilian area with a pre-planned, calculated mission is a war crime.  Especially when using a munition type that is largely viewed as illegal by most of the rest of the world.

Now, how does this relate to a single pilot making a poor decision in the heat of the moment when trying to defend himself from being attacked by a Russian supplied anti-aircraft gun positioned on Ukrainian soil by the Russian government?

Quote

About Ukrainian indiscriminate shelling. This will give you a glimpse at why the support for DPR/LPR got more popular than it should have when it first started.

Yes, Ukraine didn't handle things very well.  Given the horrible state that Yanukovych and Russian policy created for the Ukrainian military, it is not too surprising.  Of course Russian propaganda was right there to make sure every person knew only one side of the story and then repeated the messages over and over and over again.  Again, you underestimate the importance of Russian Federation propaganda on influencing events.

Quote

Also look at bombed out houses and building in separatist zones, It was not the DPR/LPR armies that started shelling and conducting air strikes.

Sure it was.  There would be no war if they weren't there, so they are ultimately responsible.  Plus, there has been many documented events of DPR/LPR shelling civilian areas.  They are still doing it right now in fact.

Quote

But Russia did not invade Donbas when Ukrainian military units were first sent over to stop the voting process. 

Incorrect.  There were no Ukrainian military units in Donbas until Russia invaded Crimea and then inserted violent, armed proxy forces into Donbas.  Please get your facts straight, because it's painful to have to keep correcting you.

Quote

Well it was not the separatists that started shelling and doing airstrikes in densely populated areas, without even warning the populace. Majority of those deaths are due to the Ukrainian government.

You have no facts to support that statement.

Quote

And I don't say this ignorantly, I feel personally obliged to this war as I have been there before and have family members living there, so I am not trying to offend anyone, but clearly even though there were Russian troops in Donbas, Ukraine used extreme force to stop a local voting process and small scale militia force.

No, Ukraine used military force against armed Russian Federation citizens armed with Russian Federation weapons supported by the Russian Federation government.  If the Ukrainian armed forces are not there to challenge such an invasion, then what purpose does the Ukrainian armed forces serve?

Quote

Which than escalated into a full on proxy war in a civil war.

No, it was *ALWAYS* a proxy war.  Right from the very start.  It was part of a very long established pattern of behavior of the Russian Federatoin since it was created and it is exactly why we (Battlefront) were able to predict Russia's behavior years before this happened.

Quote

As you can see I'm not denying the fact that Russia sent forces to help the situation although I would appreciate it if you can see that the maidan revolt in Kiev and shelling of urban populaces and denying Russian and Ukrainians rights to choose who governed the country in other parts of Ukraine, Russia has for geopolitical balance and also to defend the Russian and Ukrainian people of the east supported the DPR/LPR rebellions, passively and actively. 

Two problems:

1.  You did deny Russia's involvement for a long time.  This indicates that you have had difficulty sorting out fact from fiction.  You are understanding more of the facts now, but you are still clinging onto a basic lie... this was never a civil war.  It was a Russian government sponsored proxy war from the start.  Ukraine's military offensive happened only after many deaths caused to it by the militias.

2.  There was also never, ever going to be a true referendum in the Donbas without oversight by international organizations.  The Russian Federation made absolute sure of this, just like it did in Crimea.  Therefore, there was never a chance for the people of Donbas to have a say in their future.  Donbas' fate was determined in Moscow by probably less than a dozen people.

Quote

Why does the Russian government deny supporting the DPR/LPR?

1. Hybrid warfare 
2. Because it used up all of its political points for the Crimean land grab.
3. To avoid a possible escalation of events.   

Now please, do not think I am saying the Russian government is an angel. Obviously it has geopolitical goals in Ukraine, just as any other country. But what I'm trying to get to is that it is helping a side that has been discriminated against, not able to vote for who's in charge, a majority Russian speaking populace.

For most of the last 20 years there has been massive discrimination in Ukraine against about 1/2 of the country's populace.  Of that we agree.  However, the discrimination was mostly against the ethnic Ukrainians in favor of the ethnic Russians.  Evidence of this is easily found, starting with the Berkut that attacked Maidan supporters being from Crimea.  The Yanukovych regime was also from Donbas, not from Lvov.  I could go on and on with this, but the important point here is that Russia has always used the Russian ethnic groups in its neighbors as a weapon against the stability and control of the sovereign states they belong to.  Nothing different happening in Ukraine except that Russia failed to achieve a swift victory like it did in so many other places.

Quote

Russia's moves in Ukraine is definitely justifiable amongst Russians and Ukrainians who are in the east or in Russia. You all have good points, and arguing on the internet with westerners has made me think less biased. Although I cannot just accept the killings of innocent Russians and Ukrainians in the east, and that is why I support Russian intervention in Ukraine. And yes a bunch of lives have been lost in this war, but this is not Russia's fault. 

There would be no death in Ukraine if Russia did not make it possible for there to be a war.  The death continues to this day 100% because Russia wants it to continue.  There could be an international peace keeping force in Donbas within months if Russia would allow it.  But Russia wants this war to continue until Kiev collapses.

If you disagree with this statement, then please explain to me why Russia will not allow anybody to stabilize the area in accordance with international law?

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

37 minutes ago, IanL said:

Thus has finally an interesting conversation. For the last year + that these conversations have popped up they have been utterly useless and boring with a hand full of posters denying the basic facts on the ground and totally blocking what the real discussion should be: does one nation have the right to invade another and when is it justifiable and when not? Do the people have a right to demonstrate and force out a government that they either previously support but no longer do or force out one they never truly supported? How should neighbours behave when groups inside a neighbouring country have legitimate grievances with their central government?

We are now closer than we have ever been in an agreement on the basic facts and can have some of that discussion. I have been very curious about the Russian government 's justification (which we still have not heard since they are still denying most if the basic facts) and what Russian citizens feel about it. We are finally actually hearing about the Russian citizens' perspective it a little. Which I find very interesting. Scary but interesting.

This is why I have left this, and previous, discussions continue. I am a historian first and foremost even more than I am a game designer.  I see the path that the Russian government is forcing its population and the world at large to go down.  It is not a good path for anybody, especially the Russian people.  Ultimately the Russian people will have to pay a high price for what is going on now.  A price that makes the current economic crisis and few thousand dead "vacationers" look very small by comparison.  I do not want this for the Russian people.

Until average Russians admit there's a problem there can be no solution.  I am doing my humble best to help Russians understand that they are being misled by their government.  Without that understanding there is no hope of improvement.  I have seen some progress over the last two years and therefore I think it is worth investing my time into.

Steve

[Wicky]

1 hour ago, Peter Cairns said:

Russia, partly on the pretext that there are many ethnic Russians their, believes it has the right to intervene in it's neighbours affairs, militarily if necessary to protect it's own           interests or security.  

Most of us think, it doesn't!

Even if that view has majority support in Russia that doesn't make it right. Your Democracy stops at your borders.

I know that on occasions the US disagrees with Canada and Mexico, both of which have lots of US citizeans, but it doesn't interfere let along by proxies or force.....Thought it might build a wall!!!!

Where the US is on soft ground is when it turns a blind eye to Israel's occupation of the West Bank for nearly fifty years to safe guard it's security.

Peter.

It seems the legacy of Stalin's forced migration internally and of Russians into neighbouring counties will last longer than his statues - if they perpetually serve as a pretext for shenanigans stunting the bordering nations forever held hostage to Russia's self interests.

Maybe the bomber flights and naval intrusions around the UK are for the protection for the enclave of Russians...

"The 2001 UK Census recorded 15,160 Russian-born residents. Estimates published by The Guardian suggest that the resident Russian-born population in London was over 150,000 in 2014. The rise in population has led to jocular nicknames for London such as "Londongrad" and "Moscow-on-the-Thames"."

[HUSKER2142]

You all read about that topic? About the equipment and armament of the Russian army. Moderator close your topic better.

Here in Moscow, in September will be an exhibition of weapons, where anyone can shoot with small arms. Or sit in the tank, infantry fighting vehicles, armored personnel carriers and ect. I'm in the last year was to expose this and I liked it very much, learned about the developments MIC Russia a lot of interesting.Kids it's very interesting.I went with my family all enjoyed it.

^{Вы вообще читайте про что тема ? Про оборудование и вооружение Российской армии . Модератор закрывай тему лучше .}

^{Вот в Москве в сентябре будет выставка вооружения , где любой может пострелять из стрелкового вооружения . Или посидеть в танке , БМП , БТР и в истребителе . Я в прошлом году был на такой выставе и мне она очень понравилась , узнал о разработках ВПК России много интересного . Детям это очень интересно .Ездил с семьёй всем понравилось .}

 

Edited June 11, 2016 by HUSKER2142

[Battlefront.com]

2 minutes ago, Wicky said:

It seems the legacy of Stalin's forced migration internally and of Russians into neighbouring counties will last longer than his statues - if they perpetually serve as a pretext for shenanigans stunting the bordering nations forever held hostage to Russia's self interests.

Maybe the bomber flights and naval intrusions around the UK are for the protection for the enclave of Russians...

"The 2001 UK Census recorded 15,160 Russian-born residents. Estimates published by The Guardian suggest that the resident Russian-born population in London was over 150,000 in 2014. The rise in population has led to jocular nicknames for London such as "Londongrad" and "Moscow-on-the-Thames"."

Nah, this is just more of a sign of Russia's continuing problem with net out migration due to bad economic, political, and social conditions at home. 

http://imrussia.org/en/analysis/nation/2224-a-new-emigration-the-best-are-leaving-part-1

Notice the huge spike up corresponds to the 2011/2012 political crisis resulting from fraudulent voting, subsequent decreases in freedoms, and increasing economic problems.

Here's a slightly updated version that includes 2014, which shows the trend has accelerated since Russia started its war against Ukraine and the collapse of oil prices.  The increase in immigration (the dark green color) comes from mostly from the "Stan" republics which have seen even worse economic conditions than Russia, which makes going to Russia for work better than staying at home.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

11 minutes ago, HUSKER2142 said:

You all read about that topic? About the equipment and armament of the Russian army. Moderator close your topic better.

If I close this one it will start elsewhere.  Generally when a discussion goes off topic I allow it to continue that way if there is interest in continuing the discussion.  That is the case here so it shall remain open until it runs into other problems or interest goes away.

Steve

[sburke]

25 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

If I close this one it will start elsewhere.  Generally when a discussion goes off topic I allow it to continue that way if there is interest in continuing the discussion.  That is the case here so it shall remain open until it runs into other problems or interest goes away.

Steve

My only problem with these conversations is they are always about Russians trying to justify current actions and others trying to show the opposite.  What I find frustrating is there is this self fulfilling prophecy of Russian inferiority.  Russia as part of the USSR is looked back on as the standard for Russian influence in the international arena.  It was a position as a member of a bloc of states with significantly greater resources and population.  The dissolution of the USSR was the final phase in the collapse of the Russian Empire.  It really was no different than what UK citizens had to go through in the collapse of the British Empire (and likely what US citizens will have to do at some point).  The UK has adapted and still has an influential voice in the world.  Russians have not.  The desperation to still feel the level of influence from Soviet days is reflected in the systemic cheating in international sport as Russia HAS to live up to the standards of the USSR.  Instead of focusing on what makes Russia unique and playing to those strengths, Russia squanders it's resources trying to be what it is not. The net result is Russia accelerates it's own decline and can't even advance itself in those areas that should be it's strengths.  Everything is sacrificed to a vision of past glory, a facade that is used to trick the population into allowing itself to be run by a band of criminals.

it is frankly depressing.

Edited June 11, 2016 by sburke

[BTR]

2 hours ago, sburke said:

Funny how Russia didn't seem to think it was so absolutely overwhelming to the point they heavily rigged the vote, disenfranchised the Tartar people and shut down all their outlets to representation, had more votes than the voting population etc. 

Did you also hold the candle at the voting booths? Tatar population in distress is such a funny point in these discussions considering one of the wealthier areas of Russia is Tatar and there are vastly more Tatars living in mainland Russia then there are in Crimea. Mejlis got canned because it was curated by Turkish intelligence and money. Better late then never. 

[sburke]

funny to you maybe, not to them.  And why is there a large Tatar population in Russia... oh yeah Stalin's deportation. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Tatars

You guys have been so nice to them, no wonder they welcome you with open arms.

As to that overwhelming support of the population you guys keep reciting as fact, it seems your own gov't didn't quite see it that way...oops.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/05/06/russian-government-agency-reveals-fraudulent-nature-of-the-crimean-referendum-results/

Funny thing about facts and information, they usually leak to the surface.  I'm sure you'll have some other justification though.  Problem for Russia is, no one out here believes it anymore and so the self fulfilling prophecy of the world against Russia continues.