Things in ASL that aren’t in CMx2

[slysniper]

Broadsword did that for our La Luzerne battle, but it didn't quite pan out.  Your units don't get good visibility from any type cellar windows and in addition artillery will just create a big hole from it.  It also created some odd pathing problems, but it was fun trying it.

What was the approach for entrée and exit.

Was the grade lowered on one side

[Placebo]

Weird though it sounds, i still miss the machine gun jams that we had in CM1!!  Please keep on the to do list.

[Baneman]

Weird though it sounds, i still miss the machine gun jams that we had in CM1!!  Please keep on the to do list.

 

Agree

 

If it's not random like CM1, but tied to excessive firing * ( ie. something the player can control somewhat ), then it would be a good feature.

 

That said though, sometimes I find that MG's - particularly tripod mounted HMG's - don't fire fast enough at long ranges - where the bullet dispersion means you want more bullets arriving at the target ( infuriating when a juicy target like a loaded truck spends a whole turn in view of your HMG at 1000m+ and it parsimoniously dribbles out 3-4 bursts of around 5 rounds each.)

So perhaps the conditions would not be easily met.

 

* - not being a gun-grog, this is merely my understanding of what would cause jams.

[Battlefront.com]

MGs jam for one or more of several reasons:

1. Poor design can make a particular type of gun more prone to jamming than another

2. "Fowling", such as mud on the belt or dirt in the breach

3. Bad ammo detonating too early, which may require a special tool to "extract" the shell

4. Wear and tear on various mechanical pieces

5. Heat buildup from firing can cause one of the above to be worsened

Probably other issues, but those are the ones that come right to mind. Some of these can be very easily/quickly cleared, which is kinda why we didn't put jamming into CM since most issues could be cleared without interfering with the unit's capability. Pretty much only a jammed shell that requires tool based extraction is the sort that would stop a gun from working in a way the player would notice.

One of the big problems is barrel heat, which is why the MG34/42 has quick change barrels. Other MGs also have changeable barrels (unless they are water cooled), but not as easily swapped out. What happens here is that as the barrel heats up the metal expands. As it expands it decreases the inside diameter and that means that rounds do not feed in and out of the barrel as easily. After a time the expansion takes up all the free space and the round literally can not get in and/or out of the barrel.

While number of rounds fired doesn't have a linear effect on the chances of a jam, like anything the more it is used the greater the chance of a problem developing. However, the more the gun heats up the less tolerance it has for small problems. Therefore, there is a non-linear increase of a jam based on heat. I once watched a guy with an M-60 try to fire something like 1000 rounds non-stop (several guys held the belt out straight, which was something to see all on its own!). He got through the first few hundred without an issue, then he kept having jams. He eventually gave up. It certainly didn't help that we were standing in a gravel pit in bright sun and nearly 100 F temp!

Steve

[delliejonut]

Doesn't overheating cause a slight increase in RPM the hotter it gets and louder report as well?

[MikeyD]

 

Can't the Gliders be present as flavor objects

 

That was looked into and gliders are VERY much larger than you think they are. They dwarf a Sherman tank, cover multiple action squares. The WACO's wingspan was eighty four feet! 'Super flavor objects' are on the someday wish list but things that large have to be coded for cover, concealment, LOS/LOF blocking, etc etc etc. Something you don't have to worry about with a milk pail flavor object. 

[J Bennett]

 

 CM can do a lot of good things that ASL can’t.

 

 "Ah yes, its a lot like "Star Trek: The Next Generation'. In many ways it's superior, but will never be as recognized as the original." Wayne Campbell (Waynes World). Ok I only use that quote tongue in cheek and only speaking for myself so don't flame me. Although I have a large ASL collection , I play CM far more. Theres room in my world for both. BUt hey if the power grid shuts down  ... EMP , Solar Flare, Nibihu  etc.  who knows.  "Beyond Valor", "Yanks", "West of Alamein" etc could come out of mothballs. I first found out about CM years ago when searching for a "Computer ASL" type game. I wrote a letter to AH asking them what happened to the project with "Bigtime software" and if they were still going to make such a game. THey declined to answer but did say they still hoped to develop a computer version of ASL but that was like 15 years ago. ANyway it doesnt matter. CMx is great and looks like it will be around longer that some of us will.

[Sequoia]

I think Curt Schilling's company Multi-man publishing would be the one's to do a faithful ASL computer rendition as they own the ASL rights now.

[Battlefront.com]

I think Curt Schilling's company Multi-man publishing would be the one's to do a faithful ASL computer rendition as they own the ASL rights now.

Uh, I guess you missed out on what happened to him and his game making plans? Here, let me help you out a bit. Warning, this is not pretty or short:

http://www.bostonmagazine.com/2012/07/38-studios-end-game/

http://gamepolitics.com/2015/03/05/curt-schilling-speaks-out-about-failure-38-studios#.VbBvfCghvoM

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

On a separate note, sometimes a product made in one medium does not lend itself well to a different medium. In games the designs are very much constrained by the media they are made out of. The more complex a game is, the more it must leverage its chosen medium. This makes translation to a different medium far more difficult. ASL is one of those examples. It is so totally rooted in the limitations of a paper and dice game that moving it to the computer isn't really a good idea. Kinda like trying to scale up a small house into a mansion. It's just not going to be the same no matter how hard you try.

The opposite end of the spectrum is a game design that deliberately tries not to be complex. Risk is a great example of this. It's easily translated to a computer design. However, the downside is that computers are capable of sooooooo much more that the game feels flat on the computer. People want more than what it has to give.

In both cases the games often lose something when they go to computer. Tactile feel, personal interactions, chips & dip , and yes... even the rogue cat that jumps up to say hello just before a critical play. I remember this all too well when the very first Risk game came out for my MacPlus. Just wasn't the same, even though it was the same plus the ability to play solo.

Short of it... there's reasons why nobody has made a literal translation of ASL. And my guess is those reasons will prevent anybody from doing it in a way that even ASL fans will buy into.

Steve

[Doug Williams]

The reason I'm playing CM now is because I did an internet search for "computer ASL" when CMBO was in development. :-)

Any of you guys still play ASL? I sold all my collection about five years ago. I had a whole bookshelf full of stuff and I got something like $1500 for it on ebay. Could have made more money if I had parted it out, but I couldn't be bothered. Strange thing was, I never even used most of it. I was, at best, a novice and could only play the most basic scenarios. The rule book was as thick as a NYC phone directory.

I actually liked the original SL better than ASL, and could play it with some skill.

I hear there is a "Starter Set" now with simplified rules.

[Baneman]

... ASL ... The rule book was as thick as a NYC phone directory.

...

 

Hah, clearly you never played Starfleet Battles ( captains ed. )

 

My favourite boardgame of all time, but you have/had to be a maniac micromanager to enjoy it...  

[Doug Williams]

@Steve I read that whole 38 studios article. Very sad. Curt clearly had no idea how to run a company.

I just checked and it looks like MMP is still in business and still selling ASL products. Not sure what Curt's relationship with them is now.

[Erwin]

Fascinating to read about Schilling.  I recall he bought one of my favorite cardboard wargame companies "The Gamers" and after he bought the AH rights I thought he would be focusing on MMP and hardcore wargames. 

 

Sounds similar to Tom Clancy's Red Storm Entertainment.  That started wanting to do wargames and next thing they're trying to do fantasy stuff.

 

When I were a lad you'd see folks who were very successful in one area assuming they could do anything they wanted.  But, in those days it was often movies they wanted to get into.  Now it's MMO's.

 

A truly cautionary tale.  Am glad that BF hasn't been lured into any similar hubris.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Erwin

[Battlefront.com]

The reason I'm playing CM now is because I did an internet search for "computer ASL" when CMBO was in development. :-)

And you are definitely not alone However, the number of people who play ASL who have not heard of CM at this point is probably near zero.

Any of you guys still play ASL? I sold all my collection about five years ago. I had a whole bookshelf full of stuff and I got something like $1500 for it on ebay. Could have made more money if I had parted it out, but I couldn't be bothered. Strange thing was, I never even used most of it. I was, at best, a novice and could only play the most basic scenarios. The rule book was as thick as a NYC phone directory.

When AH was trying to get Charles to do an ASL "port" they sent him one of every single ASL product they ever made. I saw the stack it made... impressive!! He kept it for a long time and then sold them on eBay because he didn't want to move them to a new place. None of them had been used, most hadn't even been opened. And yes, he made a bundle of money.

 

Hah, clearly you never played Starfleet Battles ( captains ed. )

 

My favourite boardgame of all time, but you have/had to be a maniac micromanager to enjoy it...  

I *loved* that game, but it was difficult to find anybody that wanted to play. Or play to the end.

 

 

Fascinating to read about Schilling.  I recall he bought one of my favorite cardboard wargame companies "The Gamers" and after he bought the AH rights I thought he would be focusing on MMP and hardcore wargames. 

 

Sounds similar to Tom Clancy's Red Storm Entertainment.  That started wanting to do wargames and next thing they're trying to do fantasy stuff.

 

When I were a lad you'd see folks who were very successful in one area assuming they could do anything they wanted.  But, in those days it was often movies they wanted to get into.  Now it's MMO's.

 

A truly cautionary tale.  Am glad that BF hasn't been lured into any similar hubris.

Thanks, and yes this is a common problem. They say the same thing about restauranteurs. Location, timing, concept, staff, etc. are such huge variables that even a highly successful restauranteur risks flopping badly when he/she opens up a new place or a new location. Success is often not reproducible even within the same industry!

There's also a theory out there that the worst entrepreneurs are the ones that were successful their first time around. They have a false sense of security and wind up taking big risks which someone that went through the school of hard knocks would never take. I've come to the conclusion that this is a pretty sound argument to make. Anybody want to tell me that Steve Jobs wasn't better the second time around at Apple? No, I thought not

In fact, this is how Battlefront was born. Charles had a cozy relationship with AH that was coming to an end because AH was in a death spiral. I had my own company that got squashed by the retail monster and then went to work for The Man. This combination of success and failure, coupled with years of hard work and varied experiences, was the foundation that Battlefront was built on. I doubt we could have come up with a company that has (so far!) lasted 18 years in this disaster strewn industry without that background.

There's some YouTube videos out there interviewing the founding fathers of the games industry that offer further insight into how disaster can come to previously successful games companies. I've seen a number of them in action in person, so I can verify many of the details in these interviews by Matt Chat. Here's one of Joel Billings (founder of SSI):

Steve

[Erwin]

Thanks for the link.  Interesting.  Wish Billings talked more about WITP and WITE.  (And is Grigsby a recluse?  Never seen him interviewed.) 

 

I have been too intimidated to play much of WITE but enjoy WITPAE because when I come back to the CM2 series they seem so comparatively easy LOL.

[PanzerMike]

ASL, sigh. I have it sitting pretty on a shelf. I am looking at it right now. I bought the Rulebook Binder, Beyond Valor and Paratrooper in 1993. I have not played it once. All mint, no counters punched. I bought it on impulse. Silly me.

 

If anybody is interested send me a PM. 

[J Bennett]

@Steve I read that whole 38 studios article. Very sad. Curt clearly had no idea how to run a company.

I just checked and it looks like MMP is still in business and still selling ASL products. Not sure what Curt's relationship with them is now.

 

   I checked it too. When I looked at the Illustration with the building exploding, dollar bills and computer parts flying, and Curt and his executives running away I started laughing hysterically. I couldn't help it.  But yeah, sad.

[Myles Keogh]

ASL, sigh. I have it sitting pretty on a shelf. I am looking at it right now. I bought the Rulebook Binder, Beyond Valor and Paratrooper in 1993. I have not played it once. All mint, no counters punched. I bought it on impulse. Silly me.

 

If anybody is interested send me a PM. 

 

I played SL/ASL extensively for a ten year period, but then in mid-1993 I stopped playing.  At the time, I thought it'd just be a short hiatus, but I never played it again.  I was a true fan.  I had every release that AH made for ASL with the exception of the deluxe modules.  And for a couple of years after I stopped playing, I was still purchasing content and annuals.  I was thinking that someday I'd get back into it, but here it is over two decades later and my modules are all collecting dust in my parents' basement.  (Nostalgia keeps me from selling them or throwing them out.)

 

There were a number of reasons why I stopped playing.  Different priorities.  Lack of time.  Moving away from home.  My opponents scattering throughout the country.  Still, I thought that I'd one day get back to it because I didn't think that anything would ever rival it for a WW2 tactical gaming experience.  I especially didn't think a PC game would ever match it.  I remember playing Steel Panthers back in the mid-90's and thinking what a shallow game it was in comparison to ASL.  However, CMBO shattered my belief that no game could rival ASL, let alone surpass it.

 

Anyone I noticed one feature from the OP's list that is still missing CMx2:

 

Terrain/Buildings catching on fire.  This feature was in both SL/ASL and CMx1, but so far it's MIA in CMx2.  (I remember playing a COI scenario "Breakout of Borisov" where I rushed my Russian cavalry into a village and purposely set it on fire to deny it as cover to my enemy.  The wind picked-up the flames and as the game wore on almost all of Board 3 was covered with "burning" counters.)

[ASL Veteran]

 

 

Terrain/Buildings catching on fire.  This feature was in both SL/ASL and CMx1, but so far it's MIA in CMx2.  (I remember playing a COI scenario "Breakout of Borisov" where I rushed my Russian cavalry into a village and purposely set it on fire to deny it as cover to my enemy.  The wind picked-up the flames and as the game wore on almost all of Board 3 was covered with "burning" counters.)

 I can top that one.  Generally speaking we hated fire in ASL, or at least starting them.  Especially after 'The Warta Line' incident.  We were playing a two on two game as I recall and the guy opposite my partner moved a bunch of SS squads into the big stone building on board three which was surrounded by barbed wire.  Well somehow that building surrounded by barbed wire and full of SS soldiers caught on fire and they couldn't get out.  They all burned alive.  Of course we topped it off when one Polish leader was in a bunker by himself with an LMG.  A full platoon of SS guys jumps into the bunker to kill the guy in close combat led by the player's personal leader (we were doing that campaign thing where you are represented on the map with a personal leader unit and he wanted to pad his stats).  The Polish leader kills the entire platoon including the guy's personal leader.

[sburke]

What was the approach for entrée and exit.

Was the grade lowered on one side

Been awhile, but as I recall it was just sunken in.  That was part of the pathing issues, but what really did it in was the Americans opened up with an arty barrage that collapsed the whole structure.

[mjkerner]

ASL, sigh. I have it sitting pretty on a shelf. I am looking at it right now. I bought the Rulebook Binder, Beyond Valor and Paratrooper in 1993. I have not played it once. All mint, no counters punched. I bought it on impulse. Silly me.

 

If anybody is interested send me a PM. 

I had the whole enchilada...all the modules, ETO/MTO/PTO, plus around a dozen ASL modules by other companies licensed (I assume) to make them.  Hardly played any. Sold them on ebay about 10 years ago. You also might want to try to sell them on "The Miniatures Page" marketplace, or "BoardGameGeek" websites.

[Sailor Malan2]

I played SL/ASL extensively for a ten year period, but then in mid-1993 I stopped playing.  At the time, I thought it'd just be a short hiatus, but I never played it again.  I was a true fan.  I had every release that AH made for ASL with the exception of the deluxe modules.  And for a couple of years after I stopped playing, I was still purchasing content and annuals.  I was thinking that someday I'd get back into it, but here it is over two decades later and my modules are all collecting dust in my parents' basement.  (Nostalgia keeps me from selling them or throwing them out.)

Nah - move them in with you. Get them out and look at them occasionally. Have 'discussions' with your Significant Other about 'that old junk'. Then you are in my world. Although not with ASL - I am talking SL!

[slysniper]

Played SL to death and rolled right into ASL. Played it,

 

but the time and ability to do it kept decreasing.

 

Then Close Combat came out and that was the about the end to using the games.

 

By the time I was getting into BF games I knew I would never go back just was not fun anymore.

 

Sold it all, pocketed the money while the price was good. (it will be interesting to see how long it holds its value.)

 

 

 

Last battles I remember playing was some of the Japanese engagements. Finally figured out how to play the beach assault rules and did a few of them also.

 

I loved a few battles that were in the deluxe sets. Plus it was much more enjoyable to play on those maps for the simple fact you could spread the counters out.

 

Had the Stalingrad map one also, but never found that one as enjoyable as I thought I might. Just played some smaller battles on it and never even wanted to try a big set up.

 

 

Anyway good times, but it is the past and I sure do not see it in the future.

[RockinHarry]

Been awhile, but as I recall it was just sunken in. That was part of the pathing issues, but what really did it in was the Americans opened up with an arty barrage that collapsed the whole structure.

I still use these as substitute bunkers (3 story modular building, rubbled down to just 1 story), with 1 back dor and 1 front window (aperture). These are variably sunken into the ground with sort of berm around. In play vs. the AI, these work better, as the AI is not aware of the treacherous terrain mesh deformations and the "bunker" can be fought over and occupied by both parties. If not raining 10,5cm HE or larger on top of it, it´s a fairly good shelter as well, although near misses by mortar rounds could have a devastating effect through the only window. A human player can deal with these "bunkers" in short order by pouring HE into the front wall. However,...it´s the base of some WIP scenarios of mine which play in the latter half of september 1944 in the Stolberg corridor, where I set up the US AI to attack.

Edited July 25, 2015 by RockinHarry