Cymru Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Maybe I missed this: will the QB generator be like the current model (choose from pre-made maps), or more like CM1 where random maps could be produced? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Like the current model. Likely that will remain the case for the foreseeable future. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Maybe I missed this: will the QB generator be like the current model (choose from pre-made maps), or more like CM1 where random maps could be produced? You've probably missed all the explanations about why random maps simply don't work in the CMx2 world even as they kindof did in x1. 1) they're an order of magnitude more complex (at least) to make produce even halfway decent maps. 2) the AI needs a Plan. How can you generate a Plan from a random piece of terrain? The AI sucks badly enough already at maneuver (I'm discounting plans with triggers, cos we've not seen those in action yet) that a random plan on a random map would pretty much always be a turkey shoot for even a halfway competent human. I think they'd be trumpeting it from the rooftops if the Brain in a Jar had come up with a way of overcoming those two obstacles. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cymru Posted January 31, 2014 Author Share Posted January 31, 2014 You've probably missed all the explanations about why random maps simply don't work in the CMx2 world even as they kindof did in x1. 1) they're an order of magnitude more complex (at least) to make produce even halfway decent maps. 2) the AI needs a Plan. How can you generate a Plan from a random piece of terrain? The AI sucks badly enough already at maneuver (I'm discounting plans with triggers, cos we've not seen those in action yet) that a random plan on a random map would pretty much always be a turkey shoot for even a halfway competent human. I think they'd be trumpeting it from the rooftops if the Brain in a Jar had come up with a way of overcoming those two obstacles. I had hoped that maybe the CM3 engine might have found a way. It was my favorite component of CM1, and I still miss it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vergeltungswaffe Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Lots of us miss it. Maybe the mega tile method will make it in one day... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMotion Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I also remember this mega tile idea. Any update on whether it's still valid? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 MegaTile idea is the ONLY way random maps may, at some point, be viable. Creating random maps from scratch will never happen. Unfortunately even MegaTiles present huge challenges for us and we're not sure when we'll have the time to invest into it. Because this is the sort of feature that is absolutely not worth getting started on unless we know we can get it to a high level of customer satisfaction. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vergeltungswaffe Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Glad it isn't off the table. I'll be optimistic for it since we're getting so many features in CMRT that we thought were still far down the pipeline. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Glad it isn't off the table. I'll be optimistic for it since we're getting so many features in CMRT that we thought were still far down the pipeline. optimism does seem to be rewarded here, assuming you also have patience. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vergeltungswaffe Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 optimism does seem to be rewarded here, assuming you also have patience. And I do, I do!!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 I'll be optimistic for it since we're getting so many features in CMRT that we thought were still far down the pipeline. But you need to keep in mind that there are important differences between features that held off not because they are especially hard, but because they just aren't a high priority, like dead horses. On the other hand, other features are delayed, perhaps indefinitely, because coding them is a major project. Random maps sounds like it is one of the latter, so it may be years before we see it...if ever. That said, I miss it too and hope to see it again some time. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Crowley Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Given the number of high quality QB maps provided in BN and FI, I don't miss the 'random' generator, particularly as it was fairly hit and miss; for every good map it produced it churned out three or more dummies. What I do miss is the 'combined arms' mix which worked far better with the smaller sized battles than the current CMX2 alternatives do. To the point that I have all but given up using the generator as I tend to prefer smaller battles. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdogg Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 I miss the old style generator, what is the mega tile concept? I might have missed the discussion on that one. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 MegaTile idea is the ONLY way random maps may, at some point, be viable. Creating random maps from scratch will never happen. Unfortunately even MegaTiles present huge challenges for us and we're not sure when we'll have the time to invest into it. Because this is the sort of feature that is absolutely not worth getting started on unless we know we can get it to a high level of customer satisfaction. Steve The ability to take some level of data straight from google earth would seem to be a better investment of your team's precious time. The overlay is great, but any level of direct data upload would be MUCH better..... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cymru Posted February 1, 2014 Author Share Posted February 1, 2014 You've probably missed all the explanations about why random maps simply don't work in the CMx2 world even as they kindof did in x1. 1) they're an order of magnitude more complex (at least) to make produce even halfway decent maps. 2) the AI needs a Plan. How can you generate a Plan from a random piece of terrain? The AI sucks badly enough already at maneuver (I'm discounting plans with triggers, cos we've not seen those in action yet) that a random plan on a random map would pretty much always be a turkey shoot for even a halfway competent human. I think they'd be trumpeting it from the rooftops if the Brain in a Jar had come up with a way of overcoming those two obstacles. Not wishing to tell them what do (promptly does so). Would it be possible to have a general map and associated AI plan, but randomly alter elements within the scenario? hills might get bigger, woods thin out etc. This might offer greater variety from the existing QBs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 I have to chuckle. Whenever this topic comes up it seems that people have entirely forgot that there's a map editor in the game. If you want different landscapes you can make different landscapes. A hand-made QB map the quality of a *randomly generated* one should take mere minutes to do yourself. Snap a couple random roads & fences around random houses. Even better, pick up a standing QB map and quickly rearrange the road network, then resave under a new name. If you're willing to settle for mediocre random-generated maps then mediocre hand-built ones shouldn't turn you off. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdogg Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 I know what you mean, but the average cm player might never touch the map part of the editor. Too tedious for most, that's why the idea of random maps is so appealing. A few clicks and presto, your own custom map to play with that has never been used, even if it is mediocre compared to the hand made. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 The MegaTile concept is one borrowed from various board games (not just wargames). And that is to have many different individual mapboards which can be put together in different ways to create unique maps, even though the information on the board itself is always the same. This is a lot more to it than that because, unlike the board games, anybody can make maps and we have to code things so that the MegaTiles have some standards so the game will know how to assemble them. The idea is quite sound and really powerful. But it's a lot of work. Because there are so many great maps out there (MarkEzra having made a huge chunk of them) we don't feel this is a "front burner" type of feature request. Though we want to do it at some point. Can't use data from things like GoogleEarth or others won't work. Sure, it could give us some elevation data and a few reference points for this or that type of terrain. But overall it barely scratches the surface of the terrain types that CM has. That means someone still has to go over the maps by hand. We've also found that GoogleEarth's topographic information is quite "low resolution", so even elevation data generated from it is bland and would need going over by hand. Not to mention that a GoogleEarth shot of X town in Y country in 2013 is not going to look very similar to the same town in 1944, which means once again someone has to go over the maps by hand. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkEzra Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Geez...now I'm gonna take the blame for no mega tiles... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzz Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Geez...now I'm gonna take the blame for no mega tiles... "Because there are so many great maps out there (MarkEzra having made a huge chunk of them) we don't feel this is a "front burner" type of feature request." No Mr. MarkEzra... you gave BFC some development options with your maps Thanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vergeltungswaffe Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 But you need to keep in mind that there are important differences between features that held off not because they are especially hard, but because they just aren't a high priority, like dead horses. On the other hand, other features are delayed, perhaps indefinitely, because coding them is a major project. Random maps sounds like it is one of the latter, so it may be years before we see it...if ever. That said, I miss it too and hope to see it again some time. Michael I'm well aware it may be years, if ever. Still going to be optimistic. Geez...now I'm gonna take the blame for no mega tiles... No blame for you. Nothing but praise for all the hard work. I have to chuckle. Whenever this topic comes up it seems that people have entirely forgot that there's a map editor in the game. If you want different landscapes you can make different landscapes. A hand-made QB map the quality of a *randomly generated* one should take mere minutes to do yourself. Snap a couple random roads & fences around random houses. Even better, pick up a standing QB map and quickly rearrange the road network, then resave under a new name. If you're willing to settle for mediocre random-generated maps then mediocre hand-built ones shouldn't turn you off. I'll agree that this is true to a degree, except that it doesn't take "mere minutes" for those of us who's limited gaming time needs to be spent gaming. Making decent maps quickly takes practice, so if the game does that for me, all the better. Only reason I hope we see it back someday. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mord Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 I really don't see how it could be done for single player what with having to have orders for the enemy forces. How do you set up order plans for a map that hasn't been invented until it's invented? Mord. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Well, you could do multiple orders sets per map so you couldn't know which orders set the AI was going to select. Or you could do multiple maps as a big batch so the details of any individual map would just be a hazy recollection. Or you could do it drunk 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vergeltungswaffe Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 I really don't see how it could be done for single player what with having to have orders for the enemy forces. How do you set up order plans for a map that hasn't been invented until it's invented? Mord. Yep. It's all about H2H. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baneman Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 .... Or you could do it drunk Is there anything booze can't do ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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