Quick Battle generator

[altipueri]

Glad I can still get my cmx1 working on windows 8.1 albeit bit of a struggle. Random maps is the go to feature for me which is why I also play Advanced Tactics. Quick battles in CMBN have been a huge let down.

[Mirkus]

Quick Battle Generator was "spiritus movens" multiplayer mode. This should be a priority Number One !

[majorbly50]

I'm for random maps and random plans as well. It's the one reason I don't buy more modules. I still play CMx1 more than the new stuff because of the way quick battles are generated. I guess we are part of the small crowd, but that is still hard to believe the new crowd likes static maps and the new system better.

[Vanir Ausf B]

We don't necessarily like it better. We just don't see it as the be-all and end-all.

[Battlefront.com]

Geez...now I'm gonna take the blame for no mega tiles...

Blame goes where... no wait, credit goes where credit is due

Seriously, when we sat down to make CMx2 we had to make a choice between a game system which favored flexibility and one that favored detail. THAT was the point where random QBs disappeared as a viable option. We knew from the start that the more detailed we made the underlying environment the fewer options we would have in terms of how those options were used. In this case we knew that random QB maps were not going to be possible. We don't regret making the decision we made, at all, in the least.

I'm for random maps and random plans as well. It's the one reason I don't buy more modules. I still play CMx1 more than the new stuff because of the way quick battles are generated. I guess we are part of the small crowd, but that is still hard to believe the new crowd likes static maps and the new system better.

Two things. First, most games that most people play most of the time have fixed maps. Most have only a limited set of maps, in fact. Random map generators are mostly a throwback to the old days of computer gaming when the maps were fairly simplistic. CMx1 is in that boat too.

CMx2 actually offers more flexibility and variety than most other games out there. True, it's not random in the sense of being created on the fly, however there's no end to the number of maps that can be created.

Second...

We don't necessarily like it better. We just don't see it as the be-all and end-all.

This. QBs are the center of some people's CM gaming experience, but not for others. Those who do love QBs don't necessarily want the sort of experience that would come from truly randomized maps. Especially the players who experienced CMx1's range of map quality (i.e. from really good to horrid) and weren't all that happy with it. In fact, guess where the idea came from to have user made maps be used for QBs? From CMx1 QB players who said "these random maps aren't very good, so how about letting us play with handmade ones?"

Steve

[Buzz]

"Blame goes where... no wait, credit goes where credit is due ..." Nice Steve.

CMx1 QB maps were fine for... CMx1.

CMx2 has some very solid QB maps included in the game purchase as well as a number of fine user generated maps. With the Master Maps in CMx2... there is a world of finer details that CMx1 QB maps could never cmd close to replicate.

It all comes down to what you enjoy for having fun IMO. For me going back to a CMx1 QB map is... not as much fun after seeing the much improved map quality of CMx2... ad soon to be CMx3.

And.. no dead horse flavor objects in CMx1 QB:D

[Blackatmis]

I don't know about all the techno mambo jambo of why it can't be done, but the random map generator kept me playing CMBB for the last 10 years well past the shelf life. for the more anal, random maps will always be a nonstarter anyway. "they're just not sexy or historical enough." For those who like limitless replayability in the form of the rmg like CM1, well, we can dream.....or keep going back to CM1 for that fix. For those of us who's gaming experience was taken to the next level with an rmg, life is tough these days. not to say that red thunder isn't going to be the heavenly manna falling on us mortals still playing CMBB who have loved the new game engine, but have been waiting waiting waiting to get beyond normandy and italy to where germany actually lost the war.

[MarkEzra]

...not to say that red thunder isn't going to be the heavenly manna falling on us mortals still playing CMBB who have loved the new game engine, but have been waiting waiting waiting to get beyond normandy and italy to where germany actually lost the war.

The things that a Red Thunder QB Map can do may lessen the pain of your long wait.

[Battlefront.com]

The best way to put it is CMx1's map complexity was several magnitudes simpler than CMx2's. And many people have weighed in and agreed that CMx1's maps were often crap.

CMx1 only had 1 type of terrain per 20x20 tile, CMx2 has 4 or 5 types per 8x8 Action Spot. This means the old system could say "this 20x20 space is Deep Forest or House or Woods w/Road" and be done with it. For CMx2 it could be "grass with brush with a road and rocks and some trees for this 8x8m space". Not to mention how many more terrain types are available in CMx2 vs. CMx1.

These two things combined means that we could spend months making a generator that is practically worthless. Not a good idea, even though theoretically we of course would like to have random maps.

Steve

[SlowMotion]

Would it be possible at some point that users could give QB maps some ranking, like 1-5 stars or something? Those would be shown next to map name when browsing maps. This way users could remember which maps were best and also which one they've tried before.

[Mirkus]

Steve ---> It was destroyed multiplayer mode because there is no random map generator. Finished maps are predictable and hackneyed. QB map a small amount. The community does not want to create maps QB.

[womble]

...it doesn't take "mere minutes" for those of us who's limited gaming time needs to be spent gaming. Making decent maps quickly takes practice...

If you want a "random" map for a HvH QB, the generator already exists, and it does only take "mere minutes". Get one of the Master Maps, randomise some edges and crop it down. Arbitrarily decide which way each force is oriented and use the biggest brush to paint on some deployment zones. Add a handful of Capture objectives on obvious terrain features. Save. No creativity required. Takes "mere minutes". Is at least as good as a "mega tile" approach, and gets you the best of both worlds: a terrain that you've not played on before that's hand crafted.

It's the one reason I don't buy more modules.

So you don't buy more modules with more maps because the map selection isn't big enough? [puzzled]

still hard to believe the new crowd likes static maps and the new system better.

"static" maps implies that you have to play on the same map more than once. I haven't yet, because I've got a life that precludes spending enough time playing that I've exhausted even all the scenarios in BN yet. And more content just keeps pouring out of BFC Central. That's why I don't miss the random map generator.

[Baneman]

If you want a "random" map for a HvH QB, the generator already exists, and it does only take "mere minutes". Get one of the Master Maps, randomise some edges and crop it down. Arbitrarily decide which way each force is oriented and use the biggest brush to paint on some deployment zones. Add a handful of Capture objectives on obvious terrain features. Save. No creativity required. Takes "mere minutes". Is at least as good as a "mega tile" approach, and gets you the best of both worlds: a terrain that you've not played on before that's hand crafted.

...

What he says is sooth !

Also you can take a map you've already played on and liked, open it in the map editor, redo the deployment zones on the alternate edges ( effectively turning it 90 degrees ). Voila ! A new map wherein the terrain functions completely differently - lines of sight etc.

Also, you can have a quick hunt around in the repository or GAJ's cmmods warehouse ( http://cmmods.greenasjade.net/mods ) for user made scenarios. Snaffle the map from that and you're good to go.

There may not be a random map generator, but there's no shortage of excellent maps !

[altipueri]

I'm for random maps and random plans as well. It's the one reason I don't buy more modules. I still play CMx1 more than the new stuff because of the way quick battles are generated. I guess we are part of the small crowd, but that is still hard to believe the new crowd likes static maps and the new system better.

+1

And disappointment has led me to buying other games such as Command Ops and Advanced Tactics.

From Steve earlier in this thread:

QBs are the center of some people's CM gaming experience, but not for others. Those who do love QBs don't necessarily want the sort of experience that would come from truly randomized maps. Especially the players who experienced CMx1's range of map quality (i.e. from really good to horrid) and weren't all that happy with it. In fact, guess where the idea came from to have user made maps be used for QBs? From CMx1 QB players who said "these random maps aren't very good, so how about letting us play with handmade ones?"

I think this is one of the consequences (and other game companies do it too) of listening to the dedicated fans who know all the rules and tricks inside out, and paying less attention to the average customer who just wants to blow stuff up for an hour or two after work.

Last night I fired up CMBN, started a QB, couldn't be bothered so got out an XP laptop and played a CMBB random map (more houses than I've ever seen before) and lost. I bet most of the regulars here don't believe you can lose a CMx1 game.

[Battlefront.com]

I think this is one of the consequences (and other game companies do it too) of listening to the dedicated fans who know all the rules and tricks inside out, and paying less attention to the average customer who just wants to blow stuff up for an hour or two after work.

And this is an example of the dedicated fan mistaking himself for the average customer

It is normal for any one gamer to think his specific method of play is the most common amongst the customer base as a whole. Our experience is that the person who voices the loudest opinion about a narrow topic is most likely not our average customer. The reason for that is CM has so many features that when someone focuses on a specific element of a specific feature it's very, very unlikely that is the same feature that everybody else is complaining about.

Last night I fired up CMBN, started a QB, couldn't be bothered so got out an XP laptop and played a CMBB random map (more houses than I've ever seen before) and lost. I bet most of the regulars here don't believe you can lose a CMx1 game.

This makes no sense to me at all.

Steve

[tdogg]

So we covered random maps pretty well at this point. The second stage to this problem is the AI plans. We have hundreds of good QB maps already made, what if the answer is to have randomly generated AI plans. Might be more possible now with the trigger system.

[Battlefront.com]

Logically generated AI Plans are not in the cards any time soon. That's a huge amount of work to have them be anything other than crap. With the MegaTile concept generated AI Plans becomes more viable.

Steve

[tdogg]

Yeah I guessed that would be a tall order, after following the random map discussion and the tinkering with the editor that I have done, it seems a random AI generator would be more effective than a random map generator. We have infinite amount of maps when you think of it, it's the AI plans that the QB needs help with the most. But something to think about for v4.0 or 5.0, I like the idea of the mega tiles in the mean time.

[altipueri]

I'm flattered at even jokingly to be classified as a dedicated fan. I am worried that I seem to spend more time on the forum than playing the game.

And it's just as well I previewed this reply because I'm too non computer savvy to understand why the "quote" has only repeated Steve's bits and not mine - hence not showing what the "makes no sense to me at all" bit was about.

I give up, and I've only had three glasses of port; but the evening is not over yet.

And this is an example of the dedicated fan mistaking himself for the average customer

It is normal for any one gamer to think his specific method of play is the most common amongst the customer base as a whole. Our experience is that the person who voices the loudest opinion about a narrow topic is most likely not our average customer. The reason for that is CM has so many features that when someone focuses on a specific element of a specific feature it's very, very unlikely that is the same feature that everybody else is complaining about.

This makes no sense to me at all.

Steve

[Collingwood]

+1

And disappointment has led me to buying other games such as Command Ops and Advanced Tactics.

Not that I would criticize Command Ops, it's a great game with outstanding AI. But it has no random maps or quick battle generators - and it suffers from a lack of user created scenarios. Don't get me wrong, I love it, but Command Ops is one game that ended up disappointing me.

[MikeyD]

There are some things people want just because. Like 'sewer movement' for city fighting, or gun penetration tables, encyclopedic references, or operational map overlay. They seem to simply want 'more stuff' just for the sake of having 'more stuff'. CMBN has more than 700 high quality QB maps yet some are calling for cheesy random-made maps (which they'll then complain about). And some of those folk say they don't play the game much anyway, preferring geriatric old CMx1.

[sburke]

There are some things people want just because. Like 'sewer movement' for city fighting, or gun penetration tables, encyclopedic references, or operational map overlay. They seem to simply want 'more stuff' just for the sake of having 'more stuff'. CMBN has more than 700 high quality QB maps yet some are calling for cheesy random-made maps (which they'll then complain about). And some of those folk say they don't play the game much anyway, preferring geriatric old CMx1.

somebody say sewer movement?! LOL Yeah I gotta admit I am one of those. I'd love to see it as I'd love a really detailed Stalingrad experience. However do I really need it and would I use it anywhere even near enough to make it worth Steve even answering it much less trying to code it- doubtful. Okay not even doubtful, just plain old no. ahh but it is fun to contemplate. and not quite as weird as contemplating my navel.

What are you thinking about? Oh um sewer movement and how cool that would be.... really? :confused:

okay maybe it would be as weird.

[Blackatmis]

I liked cheesy cmbb maps and had no complaints about them. Clearly two groups of people on this argument that's been going on for years here (yeah I don't have a zillion comments but am one of those weirdos that checks in to see what's new and rarely posts). Just so happens that the rmg for CM1 was what kept me playing it all these years and apparently, to the chagrin of the exacting detail crowd, there is a group of us out here that do love rmg's despite being dismissed as a vocal minority.

Now despite that it's apparently a herculean effort to put an rmg together due to the complexity of cm2, don't belittle the crowd that likes the challenge of complete randomness (which is what I believe altipeuri was getting at steve - made sense to me)

and now I go back to the dark cave of my non-forum life and randomly and occasionally check in to see if red thunder is out yet....

oh and steve, will there be a random map generator in red thunder? hahahahahaha

[Vanir Ausf B]

There are some things people want just because. Like 'sewer movement' for city fighting, or gun penetration tables, encyclopedic references, or operational map overlay. They seem to simply want 'more stuff' just for the sake of having 'more stuff'.

The utility of any of those features can be debated on their own merit in terms of cost/benefit, but to broadly dismiss desire for them as some sort of mindless greed is idiotic.

[womble]

somebody say sewer movement?! LOL Yeah I gotta admit I am one of those. I'd love to see it as I'd love a really detailed Stalingrad experience.

I think before that, the "shooting at facades" thing could do with being sorted for a broader improvement on any map with a building, not just scarily intense urban combat.

Were sewers at all significant in any of the other places WW2 got fought? Were they that significant in Stalingrad? They make a great USP for Stalingrad when that rolls round, I think.