ALLIED : Gustav Line BETA AAR Round Two - Eye of the Elefant

[John Kettler]

womble,

I'm one of them. It was the new 6 prs and much reviled by the gunners 25 pr in DF that butchered Rommel's armor at Deir El Shein and Ruweisat Ridge and a 6 pr that disabled the Bovington Tiger 1 in Tunisia (turret ring hit, jammed it). They're a real threat to anything Panzer IV down and can hurt, maybe even kill, the heavy stuff (golden BB syndrome--weak spot penetration, gun hit, lower hull above tracks, fleeting rear shot, etc.). Their ROF is high enough that the Allied version of hail fire becomes doable, too. When I master the system and if I eventually get CMFI, then I'd like to see how that approach might work against Bil's current force. If he's reading this, I'm buying lots of tacair and FOs!

Regards,

John Kettler

[GreenAsJade]

Some people think that easier-to-hide 57mms might have been more viable (as well as more numerous ).

I just don't see this. How will a 57mm fair against the Elefant, Brummbar or JgPz... of which Bil could have brought far more? I'm not sure they're even that great against the PzIVh, though if they hide well, then side shots would have been more possible.

It's easy to say that 57mms would have been a better choice against what Bil _has_ brought, but not so easy against what he _might have_...

GaJ

[simmox]

im with ya Gaj,as it stands after a 100 games or so,myself,AT guns arent worth the points.with a few exceptions.long deep maps with good tree coverage and trenches seem to work ok.

but oddly,i've also had a 57mm pinging away from behind a hedge at a tiger at 300-400 meters,and never got spotted by it for a dozen turns,the match actually ended,without it being seen at all?

sketchy damn things alright.

keyhole them is the best way i've found to use them

Infantry can and will sight them fairly easy,probably too easy.making recon essentialy an easy way to find them and destroy.

not reliable enough for me to use consistantly in QB's as they are currently modelled

as a US force,aircraft seem good value.

[womble]

I just don't see this. How will a 57mm fair against the Elefant, Brummbar or JgPz... of which Bil could have brought far more? I'm not sure they're even that great against the PzIVh, though if they hide well, then side shots would have been more possible.

I think the Heffalump is probably proof against the 57mm (at least for total kill purposes) from everywhere except the rear, and Bil would probably have to accidentally plot a reverse waypoint towards you for that shot to ever happen... But the other heavies might be vulnerable from the flank, and the hiding ability of the smaller gun makes, as you say, those shots more doable. Against the PzIVs, they're fully adequate, I reckon, from any angle.

I'm not convinced they're a better option, but I think those are the "pros".

[dieseltaylor]

I think the Heffalump is probably proof against the 57mm (at least for total kill purposes) from everywhere except the rear, and Bil would probably have to accidentally plot a reverse waypoint towards you for that shot to ever happen... But the other heavies might be vulnerable from the flank, and the hiding ability of the smaller gun makes, as you say, those shots more doable. Against the PzIVs, they're fully adequate, I reckon, from any angle.

I'm not convinced they're a better option, but I think those are the "pros".

Ian Hogg has the US 57mm ATG doing around 73mm at 20degree slope at 1000 yards. Therefore I would suggest at right angles and at closer range the Elefant is vulnerable. After all 80mm of armour is barely more than the Matilda II. : )

The other point is that if the small 57mm can be hidden then firing to upset the commanders nerves would be fun.

[John Kettler]

GreenAsJade,

I responded to the question as posed by you. I deemed that to be: you on the defenses, on this map, under the same conditions, against Bil, using the same forces on his end as he began this QB with. I have no tactical Swiss Army Knife to offer here. My reply was premised on the problem posed as stated above.

In reality, unless the situation is incredibly fluid, G2 would have some useful guidance on what to expect. In turn, this would be passed down the chain and on your end would be something like:

Defend in place using (insert assets here) covering the area bounded by (grid coordinates). In addition to your core force, regiment is sending in some heavy TDs (towed), and some of those new M10 TDs to help you hold Santa Maria Infante. Tame's a bonus. Word is the Krauts are sending in some heavy armor to take the place. Don't let it happen! Keep those guys from pushing up that road!

Air recon got a glimpse earlier, and it looks like one of those kampf (sputter), heck, battlegroups they seem to favor is headed your way. No priority of fires. No flyboys. Sorry, but there's a lot going on, and Divarty and Cannon Company are tied up. Make full use of your mortars and other organic weapons. And didn't the engineers build you some fine pillboxes? Mines? Wire? Your call. You've got some time yet. Good luck!

The grim reality of war is that you frequently have to fight with what you have, not what you'd like to have. Unless you're Monty! As I say, I'd be interested in seeing what I might be able to come up with, knowing what I know now. I agree that 57s don't have the hitting power of your 3-inch TDs, but I think they'd tax Bil a lot more than your all too easily neutralized big boys, in turn, slowing down his advance, burning the game clock and providing even more time to chew on his force as it grinds uphill, under fire. Remember, the real target of this is the mind of the enemy commander. You want to throw Bill curve balls and sliders. Distract him, throw him off his game. Force him to dance to your tune. As I say, I'm great on theory!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Bartokomus]

Side note to defend the 57mm; in the scenario M"y Honor is my Loyalty" my 57mm has knocked out 2 panthers from about 600-700m. I think a better map for defense combined with 4-5 57mm would have been very convincing.

[Vark]

Aren't hefalumps vulnerable to top attacks due to their large engine grills? Could you have bought 4.2' mortars, or were they too expensive?

[John Kettler]

Bartokomus,

Good to know. It would be easier for GreenAsJade to defend if the terrain had the granularity sorely lacking in the "golf greens" presently depicted. This isn't on Bil, but the way the game models terrain. The ground is much rougher than it's rendered. In turn, that gives cover and concealment from microrelief, which would considerably help make it harder to spot and kill GreenAsJade's force components. Here's what the ground looked like. Those banded things are terraces on the hillsides and are, from what I can tell, no go for tanks. Essentially, the road runs right across the ridge spine and is quite exposed in places.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-A-Small/img/USA-A-Small-p126.jpg

Vark,

I posed the Four Deuce as a possible solution to Bil's armor and infantry in my Post 507. Great minds and all that!

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

Bartokomus,

I just discovered a potentially nasty twist on the U.S. 57mm option we've been discussing. The Wiki says there was no HE until after Normandy, but goes on to indicate the shortfall was made up by the British to some extent. If I read the text correctly, though, that was post D-Day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnance_QF_6_pounder

Does the 57mm in CMFI have any HE with it, please? If so, how much? Can't check here, as I have only CMBN.

Regards,

John Kettler

[MikeyD]

CMFI U.S. 57mm does not have a HE round. At this point in time I'm not entirely sure the AP shot even has a burster charge. That detail is 'under the hood' and not in the documentation. I'd have to fire a few rounds to see if there's and indication of a 'burst' when it reaches the target.

About 'why purchase 3 inch guns for the battle?', one good reason is because they weren't in the basegame! Same for the M10s. The point is to showcase what you're getting with the module, not what's already available. same for the spring foliage on the trees and the side skirts on the PzIVs. All new to Gustav Line

[hoolaman]

CMFI U.S. 57mm does not have a HE round. At this point in time I'm not entirely sure the AP shot even has a burster charge. That detail is 'under the hood' and not in the documentation. I'd have to fire a few rounds to see if there's and indication of a 'burst' when it reaches the target.

Lol, every round in CMx2 "bursts".

[Alan8325]

Lol, every round in CMx2 "bursts".

I've seen infantry in CM get killed/wounded from an AP impact several action spots away. Seems it is treated as a 'small' HE for anti-personnel purposes. The following video originally posted in a Shock Force thread reminds me of this. Watch the tank shell ricochet at 0:45.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=377_1368388611

[Vanir Ausf B]

I've seen a German soldier killed by a US 57mm HVAP round that landed 40-50 meters away. It was a single event and it may have been a fluke, but it was a sufficiently odd fluke that I have considered testing the anti-personnel lethality of armor piercing rounds in the game

[John Kettler]

MikeyD,

Appreciate the info but can't help noting that AP Shot (M70 AP-T for the M1 57mm) by definition has no bursting charge. Else, it'd be called A.P.C. The Standard Catalogue of Ordnance Items lists the M70 as Substitute Standard. This was because it was a stopgap until the far more complex M86 A.P.C.-T was available. "T" is for tracer, so you can see where the bloody thing went. Maybe! Page 511 at the link covers both.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/13810984/Standard-Ordnance-Items-Catalog-1944-Vol-3

Regards,

John Kettler

[GreenAsJade]

Movie 30, 0:41-0:40

Unfortunately, my right-centre defence has not worked.

The as-yet-unfired ATG was taken out this turn by mortar fire.

The HMG bunker failed to spot any units as they moved across the approach it was covering up to Hill 109.

So - I am back to the line where my units are shielded from the Tits behind Hill 126. At this point, there is an HMG and the AAHT waiting. I also have an M10 carefully making it's way in this direction.

On the left, my guys bugged out from Sunken Road juuuust in time. I lost a man from each squad to mortar fire, but didn't loose my Tommy guns

I've lost sight of Bil's centre-right approach. It may be that they are worried about the ATG on my right, which fired at the Elefant earlier on, and thus waiting till Hill 126 is taken. That's fine with me!

It looks like I'll be defending the left approach valley, and the right flank, in the coming few turns...

GaJ

[GreenAsJade]

Movie 31, 0:40-0:39

At this point, Bil has secured his entry to the right flank, and presumably is clearing up over behind The Spur.

Next, I can anticipate him pushing along the right West Ridge, under the overwatch from the Left Tit ridge.

That overwatch has created a denied zone on the central right ridge, where I was hoping to be able to deal with the right flank.

I combed that whole area for somewhere to go to harrass the Right Flank attackers, but it all looks like this:

The only possible area for firing upon the right flank is well forwards, where my centre-right mid-line is:

So I'm going to zip forwards the M10 that's been waiting in SMI and see if that can make Bil's life a little harder on the right.

The alternative to this was basically the waiting game - wait for him to push along through the right spur, encounter and deal with the modest defense there, then have him at Tame already, without any pressure on the left. If the M10 can actually pose a threat from further forwards, Bil will have to look at pulling armour forwards in the centre, where I have bazookas, ATG, and the last M10 ...

GaJ

[Seedorf81]

Gaj,

I don't mind losing if my adversary fights better, but I do mind losing from an enemy that has apparent psychic abilities. In CMBO for instance, my AI-adversary-TC's seemed to know where the line of fire for my perfectly positioned tanks or ATguns began. And stopped mysteriously just (within feet or even inches) before I could blow 'm up. Grinding teeth, clinching of fists and a furious shouting at my screen as a result.

It looks like you are playing that AI. I have a real problem in understanding how it is possible that your troops can't see hardly anything, while your opponent can see nearly everything.

I can hardly believe that this big difference is just because Bill is the better player, but I might be wrong.

How do you feel about this "observational gap"?

[sburke]

Interesting that no one ever cites this mysterious asymmetrical spotting when their units are spotting first...

Honestly I think this discussion should wait until this is over so GaJ has the chance to review Bil's thread before commenting. You are asking he discuss a situation he can only see one side of, that isn't quite fair.

[c3k]

Gaj,

I don't mind losing if my adversary fights better, but I do mind losing from an enemy that has apparent psychic abilities. In CMBO for instance, my AI-adversary-TC's seemed to know where the line of fire for my perfectly positioned tanks or ATguns began. And stopped mysteriously just (within feet or even inches) before I could blow 'm up. Grinding teeth, clinching of fists and a furious shouting at my screen as a result.

It looks like you are playing that AI. I have a real problem in understanding how it is possible that your troops can't see hardly anything, while your opponent can see nearly everything.

I can hardly believe that this big difference is just because Bill is the better player, but I might be wrong.

How do you feel about this "observational gap"?

And, were the bolded part true, how would GaJ know that? C'mon, this is not what you should be saying. Your statement may skew the battle.

If GaJ believes your statement, he may change what he is doing in order to increase his battlefield surveillance.

If GaJ dis-believes your statement, he may do nothing different, but the THOUGHT that it MAY be true could change how he approaches the battle.

If GaJ does not read your statement, then no harm.

FWIW, I do not understand the basis from which you synthesized your statement. NO, do not try to explain it. That would only be digging your hole deeper.

Ken

[John Kettler]

GreenAsJade,

Another gun? Does that ever suck! Sure hope your M10 does better in both survival and combat effectiveness than its unfortunate sibling.

I've found manually evaluating sightlines in the game, especially in complex terrain, to be simply awful. The AI is incredibly adept at needle threading shots through seemingly even the best cover (was way back in trees) when I couldn't see a way I could be seen, never mind fired upon. Wrong! Am currently letting the AI run Barkmann for me in Barkmann's Corner, and he's doing just great. In fact, I've pretty much decided, absent some explicit military requirement, the AI does a better job of running combat while static than I do. For sure, its attention to certain things is far more acute than mine--and never flags.

Regards,

John Kettler

[dieseltaylor]

I've seen a German soldier killed by a US 57mm HVAP round that landed 40-50 meters away. It was a single event and it may have been a fluke, but it was a sufficiently odd fluke that I have considered testing the anti-personnel lethality of armor piercing rounds in the game

Was the victim in line with travel, side on, or in front of impact point? It does seem so unlikely that to have it factored in as a possible result seems bizarre.

[GreenAsJade]

On the topic of "Your opponent can see everything", I agree with c3k that if it were making a statement about what Bil can really see, it would be way over the line. So I assumed that this isn't what the poster was meaning, he meant what I am already feeling: It *seems as if* my opponent can see everything. He's shooting at guns that are hidden, and finding my defenders (eg that sniper on the centre left) with ease.

So let's consider FOW not breached....

GaJ

[GerryCMBB]

I think Seedorf was raising questions about the spotting in the game. But some people don't want to think that is a possibility. It does seem strange that 2 ATGs are lost w/o firing a shot. Does not seem realistic?

Gerry

[Freyberg]

I'm playing a H2H scenario where I just spotted an ATG on the edge of a wood. It was pretty close to the edge, and I had scouts moving slowly within 150m for a while before they spotted it - just getting up close wasn't enough, they had to snoop around. I've also had a game where I had a 57mm (admittedly a smaller gun) in flimsy cover, with enemy troops also within a couple of hundred metres, but I kept them under a reasonable amount of suppressing fire and they never spotted it - caused my opponent a big surprise.

It does seem the game is quite sophisticated with spotting, it's not instantaneous, and it seems to depend on a lot of factors.