ALLIED : Gustav Line BETA AAR Round Two - Eye of the Elefant

[GreenAsJade]

I agree. I ran a test on this same map with a JgPz parked where Bil parked his, looking at an ATG where I parked mine, and I got sick of hitting go before they spotted each other!

One could say that Bil has been lucky with his spotting, but you make your luck. Put eyes in the right places and the spotting will come. My impression remains that the grass is providing more concealment that feels natural, but it's easy to form that impression when you're on the receiving end of some bad luck in that respect - I have no real complaints about the grass.

I do think that ATGs should be able to be 1) Camoed and 2) Emplaced. Without at least one of these two things, I won't be using them again through choice. Although it's clear that it _can_ be hard to spot an ATG (based on my test), it is not reliable enough that it _well be_ hard to spot them when you need it to be.

GaJ

[Freyberg]

I think suppressing fire makes a difference. Bill seems to use a lot of that.

[sfhand]

Sorry if this has been asked or mentioned, but were the atg crews ordered to hide?

[Michael Emrys]

Sorry if this has been asked or mentioned, but were the atg crews ordered to hide?

I recall that they were.

Michael

[Seedorf81]

On the topic of "Your opponent can see everything", I agree with c3k that if it were making a statement about what Bil can really see, it would be way over the line. So I assumed that this isn't what the poster was meaning, he meant what I am already feeling: It *seems as if* my opponent can see everything. He's shooting at guns that are hidden, and finding my defenders (eg that sniper on the centre left) with ease.

So let's consider FOW not breached....

GaJ

Thanks for perfect explanation.

[GreenAsJade]

Movie 33, 0:38-0:37

As you may recall, I decided last turn to push one of my M10s up the centre right, to try to find a place where they could catch Bil's right flanking PzIVH's with a side shot.

Thankfully it is not dead (yet) as a result, though all did not go to plan entirely. Just as it arrived at it's parking spot, it spotted an HT. This caused it to button up and start aiming at the HT. At the same time that it had been moving up, so had Bil's PzIVHs. I can see them from spotters in Tame and further up the centre ridge. They spotted my M10 quickly and opened fire...

The M10 did not spot the PzIVHs in return - as soon as their first shell arrived, it's smoke burst obscured that path. Here's what it looks like, more clearly, to the M10:

Here's what it actually looks like:

Needless to say, he'll be reversing back the way he came far enough to be sure that the PzIVHs can't see him any more. I'm hoping that the smoke-burst that obscures the PzIVHs from him is also obscuring him from them. Their turrets rotated away in the last seconds of the turn, fingers crossed.

[GreenAsJade]

Over at the now-conquered Hill 109, one of Bil's HTs started laying down fire on the next ridge that he needs to take, behind Hill 126

I do have eyes in that area, though not right where his gun was pointing this turn, happily.

Bil has now conquered the three "I don't care" zones - those VLs that I simply did not intend to defend. If Bil were not such a meticulous player, I could start hoping that he is getting restless with the lack of opposition - even over confident perhaps. I guess I can always hope a little for this ... though a wise person once said don't plan your success based on other's mistakes.

Anyhow, Hill 126 is the first actual reverse slope opportunity that I have had to defend, and it does have defenders.

A HMG and the AAHT are back behind likely shelling zones (in fact, I'm moving the HMG further away from the crest that Bil can easily shell).

It was clear that Bil had spotted the Hill 126 ATG that fired on his Elefant (or guessed precisely its location), because he is now shelling the area where it was. Happily, I packed that thing up after it fired, and it's now moving back a little further reverse slope behind the Tame spur, where it can cover Hill 126 without being exposed to the Tits etc.

Another HMG and Bazooka are also moving down to help with resistance at Tame.

I have also decided I need to get my left read M10 out from behind that big ridge. So much of that ridge is controlled by the JgPz on Hill 130 that he is pinned too badly if he remains in that location. There will be a moment, as he crosses the ridge, where the JgPz may see him briefly.... I'm holding my breath that he makes the crossing OK!!

GaJ

[dieseltaylor]

Interesting. In CMx1 the TD was a difficult kill for the IV - and should be more so as firing uphill should increase the angle of the armour. An interesting risk but judging how you feel you may duke it out as nailing them would be fun and might throw a spanner into the attack.

PS 60mm smoke for the ridge traverse?Its getting more fun by as the action unfolds.!

[A Canadian Cat]

I agree. I ran a test on this same map with a JgPz parked where Bil parked his, looking at an ATG where I parked mine, and I got sick of hitting go before they spotted each other!

One could say that Bil has been lucky with his spotting, but you make your luck. Put eyes in the right places and the spotting will come.

Good to hear the results of your testing. So true about making your own luck, but luck does play a part. And in that instance luck did not go your way.

I do think that ATGs should be able to be 1) Camoed and 2) Emplaced. Without at least one of these two things, I won't be using them again through choice. Although it's clear that it _can_ be hard to spot an ATG (based on my test), it is not reliable enough that it _well be_ hard to spot them when you need it to be.

I know how you feel. A friend of mine and I are playing a mirrored attack / defend QB (two games, same map, but our own force choice so only the terrain is mirrored) right now. His guns in the treeline or in the grass are all toast already. My men easily spotted them and dispatched them loosing only a couple of half tracks in the process. One of mine is hanging on after shredding three Shermans - woo hoo.

In my case I placed the gun next to a raised rail line back in some trees. They also have a sand bag wall. They are under cover and have two key whole views at about 90deg from each other. One side of the gun is protected by the raised rail embankment and two other sides are covered by the sand bag wall. It has survived the return fire from the platoon of Shermans (several hits on the embankment) as he dispatched most of them and drove off the rest. Then the crew took a casualty from fire from multiple MGs and then another casualty from a mortar barrage. So far the crew is hanging in there ready for those Shermans to try to push forward again. It really feels like a gun emplacement.

[A Canadian Cat]

It was clear that Bil had spotted the Hill 126 ATG that fired on his Elefant (or guessed precisely its location), because he is now shelling the area where it was. Happily, I packed that thing up after it fired, and it's now moving back a little further reverse slope behind the Tame spur, where it can cover Hill 126 without being exposed to the Tits etc.

Oooo did I miss you saying you were doing that. You packed up the AT gun and moved it! Brilliant. Do you have a towing vehicle or are the crew schlepping it?

[GreenAsJade]

Nice work, Ian, with your home-crafted ATG emplacement ... that might be a winner.

I had not mentioned that I was packing up the ATG... it's been kind of a little Baldrick plan (Baldrick manouever?) I had going on in the background (they are pushing the darn thing!)

GaJ

[John Kettler]

GreenAsJade,

Please explain, time permitting, how you packed up that moose of an ATG? Did you push it, tow it or what? Regardless, a gutsy (a bit lower, actually) move! What's a Baldrick plan?

Regards,

John Kettler

[Michael Emrys]

Please explain, time permitting, how you packed up that moose of an ATG? Did you push it, tow it or what?

...(they are pushing the darn thing!)

[padding]

Michael

[GreenAsJade]

I just looked at the pack up and deploy time (a total of 9 minutes) and thought to myself "just maybe, I have that much time before Bil gets into the midfield", so I have the guys pushing it. It doesn't need to go far to get out of range of targetted mortars that are hunting for it, and what I like about this is that if I escaped unspotted as I moved, then Bil thinks I have a hard-to-kill gun at the old location, which is almost as good as actually having a gun there, in terms of holding back his armoured advance in that old FOV.

A "Baldrick Plan". Well. That might be best answered by google In summary - a cunning plan devised by the fictional-comedy character "Baldrick", very unlikely to actually succeed

GaJ

[Freyberg]

Packed up and repositioned! That's thinking!!

[Splinty]

Baldrick was known for his "cunning plans".

[GreenAsJade]

Packed up and repositioned! That's thinking!!

It's perhaps making the best of a not-ideal situation

It would be easy to say "Geez, GaJ should have brought a more mobile force - he already knew that fixed fortifications are a monument to the stupidity of man, so why did he bring bunkers and ATGs? Now he has to lug ATGs around by hand!"

This comes to the question of "how does the defender make up for the force imbalance that he faces?".

Although Patton thinks that they are stupid, bunkers (in theory) give you one up over an attacker because they are an almost-invulnerable asset and (in theory) force the attacker to place an AFV in a narrow area in order to take them out: a positioning that you can take advantage of. I thought it was worth exploiting this - though as it turns out to mixed success so for. The invulnerable claim is holding up well, but the effectiveness of the asset is greatly reduced by it not being able to see the inf that it is supposed to be interdicting.

ATGs are another "tool" for a defender to get a one up. Due to the force imbalance, a defender needs every gun that he has to have a chance of taking out more than one equivalent gun of the opponent. An ATG offers this possbility through keyholing and concealment (and possbily low vulnerability through entrenchment), and also provides extra guns-for-the-money, being cheaper.

With a wide area of attack paths to cover, a combination setup was worth a try - using the ATG to hit the tanks that would be forced to take out the bunkers that were blocking infantry approach routes. Unfortunately, as I learned painfully, the concealment of ATGs was not up to scratch for this plan.

This was the thinking that lead to ATGs being there. Once they were there and not functioning as intended, a desperate move to make them a bit mobile was the remaining option

GaJ

[herr_oberst]

It's perhaps making the best of a not-ideal situation

GaJ

For Pete's sake, give yourself some credit, man!

I'm not sure I'd have opted for the "shoot and scoot" (or "shoot and push/pull/curse") as a way to salvage that gun. He who fights and runs away and all that.

If Bill had that spot targeted because he thought he saw or saw a gun there, but then there isn't one, he's gotta start wondering. And that has some value.

Not saying I'd plan a defense with that mode of repositioning in mind, but as an adhoc action, well played.

[GreenAsJade]

Thanks

GaJ

[Freyberg]

I thought you chose a good balanced, historically realistic force

[A Canadian Cat]

Nice work, Ian, with your home-crafted ATG emplacement ... that might be a winner.

I was pretty proud of it - and I played another turn last night and stand corrected - it KO'ed four Shermans before the one remaining tank pulled back. I have video which is pretty cool. I'll let people know when I load it to YouTube.

I had not mentioned that I was packing up the ATG... it's been kind of a little Baldrick plan (Baldrick manouever?) I had going on in the background (they are pushing the darn thing!)

Cool - it is very painful to watch gun crews plodding along. May you way points be efficient and your pixel troops have enough time to get the job done.

[A Canadian Cat]

For Pete's sake, give yourself some credit, man!

Yeah! Your plan seemed very reasonable and moving that gun while a risk is worth taking. Bill knows where it was so he will spend resources taking it out. If you leave it it will die. If you move it it might live to fight another day.

[Lethaface]

With a wide area of attack paths to cover, a combination setup was worth a try - using the ATG to hit the tanks that would be forced to take out the bunkers that were blocking infantry approach routes. Unfortunately, as I learned painfully, the concealment of ATGs was not up to scratch for this plan.

This was the thinking that lead to ATGs being there. Once they were there and not functioning as intended, a desperate move to make them a bit mobile was the remaining option

GaJ

Sounds like a more than decent tactic to me and might work well in a map with more concealment for your guns. With other eyes locating the infantry, you could area fire with the bunker to interdict. Area firing machine guns to suppress suspected infantry positions works very well in my experience. In a recent PBEM I had two HMG's rushed into two buildings which area fired a couple of thousands of rounds into woods which I know were infested with enemy truppen. They only got about ~5 kills per team, but suppressed the sh1t out of those pesky sten gun wielding canadian para's which helped a lot in the survival of my own infantry.

[GreenAsJade]

Sorry for the delay - Friday night camping outing with the family intervened. I'm on the turn now and .

Movie 34, 0:37-0:36

I'm really quite relieved to report that the trapped left rear M10 ran the gauntlet of the Hill 130 JgPz succesfully: it is still alive and now free to roam the midfield with far more options.

Here we see it rushing past one of the openings that the JgPz had to spot it (the worst one).

Incidentally, that outcrop is what is shielding the ATG in that area from the Hill 130 overwatch.

This is the sort of move that I would normally put in the category of "crazy, don't risk it, you think it's a calculated risk, but it will go wrong". I've lost track of the number of times I've said to myself "I'll chance it, it's worth it", and then wished I hadn't.

I got lucky this time. I did consider smoking this path before running, but I'mm seeing 81mm smoke being totally ineffective for Bill due to the wind, and also the sheer number of little holes that the JgPz might see through ruled this out as an effective measure. Although realising that this was one of the "it's crazy to take a chance" risks, there was actually little to loose. I knew, pretty much at the moment that the sheer extent of Hill 130 overwatch became clear, that this guy behind the ridge was pinned. Then I found out Bil probably knows it was there (shelling in the area) ... so it was effectively useless anyhow. I needed to get it out at some time, and Bil was showing no signs of taking away the JgPz (why would he).

So ... yay. What a relief.

I actually watched the JgPz closely the whole movie, and interestingly it didn't show a sign of spotting. No adjustments to take aim, not a thing.

However, I have to assume that Bil saw it, and actually I don't mind. Before he had the comfort of knowing he had a pinned asset of mine. Now he has to wonder what I'm up to

Here is a more zoomed out picture of the same moment, for orientation. You can see my left rear ATG, that watches the centre approach, shielded from Hill 130 by the outcrop that the M10 is driving past.

[Freyberg]

That's a beautiful screen grab of the M10 making a dash for it. I wish I had the graphics capability on my old MacBook to play the game at its best graphics settings.