Fizou Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Us non pre-orderers are GaJ so please keep it up 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 I wonder if you guys are still reading, Heck, I've had my hands on Gustav Line for months but am still constantly popping in to follow this AAR thread! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splinty Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Heck, I've had my hands on Gustav Line for months but am still constantly popping in to follow this AAR thread! Same here, but I've mostly been lurking. Fascinating AAR though, keep it coming guys. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slysniper Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 M18 Hellcat had considerably less (25mm at 23 degrees) and the Germans were terrified of them. Yes, they were. But it had nothing to do with its armor. Speed, my man, Speed. They were the formula one's of the battlefield and moved fast enough that if they were flanking a german tank, the German gunners had problems with their turrets rotating too slow or with getting the correct lead on the enemy armor since they were not use to seeing that type of speed. You cannot kill WHAT YOU CANNOT HIT. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew H. Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Yes, they were. But it had nothing to do with its armor. Speed, my man, Speed. They were the formula one's of the battlefield and moved fast enough that if they were flanking a german tank, the German gunners had problems with their turrets rotating too slow or with getting the correct lead on the enemy armor since they were not use to seeing that type of speed. You cannot kill WHAT YOU CANNOT HIT. Also, to a Panther, 100 mm of armor is just the same as 23 mm of armor... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted May 21, 2013 Author Share Posted May 21, 2013 Movie 37, 0:34-0:33 Bil is now seriously on the move on the right flank He has shifted the Elefant, heading to a position where he'll be able to see the centre-right ridge far more easily ... something he can do with confidence now that my ATG is gone from there, and he knows where my two centre M10s are. He must feel sure that I have no unaccounted for guns, because it was a bit of a dangerous side-on dash: The two sound contacts coming up the centre ridge were indeed the two remaining PzIVhs, and they have come on very strong. They are almost overtaking Bil's infantry scouting in that direction... I doubt whether he'll be careless enough to let them within anti-tank personell range, but I can hope The bulk of that screen is going to try to pull back "be like water" now, though... they can't possibly hold out against two tanks at this point. The whole centre right valley is now completely undefendable, really, with the amount of big guns overwatching it. So I will have to let Bil flow through there, harry and hassle him, and try to be ready in a more secure last-line-of-resistance. If I have counted right, he still has two tanks - Brummbar and JgPz - to play with on the left as well, so now would appear to be a very likely time for him to turn up the heat on that side. I've lost sight of the JgPz - I'll try to inch the sniper back in that direction to find it again. On the far right, Bil's approaching infantry took out my far right forward eyes, so it's down to the reverse slope guys. (In less concealment situation, my forward eyes would have hoped to spot Bil's initial advance, fire on it, then run back ... but in this case Bil's men were right upon mine before mine spotted them!) Heavy artillery continues to fall behind Hill 126, and an HT appeared to scoot for the far far right edge of the map ... where AATH and M10 #3 are waiting. GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 An Elefant "dashing"? That must've been quite the sight! HQ is awaiting word from you regarding your counter-attack plans. Remember Comrade Stalin's order: "Not one step back". For the Rodina! Or somesuch... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted May 21, 2013 Author Share Posted May 21, 2013 Actually, I have been pondering a couple of counter attack plans. One is to wizz the M10s up the centre left and pop over the top side/rear of the fast advancing PzIVhs. This is open to the risk of being counter-counter-attacked up the centre left from behind the Spur. The risk is I may have miscounted tanks, and that he does have more than a single Brummbar to foil this plan. The other is to push up the right flank. Now that the Elefant and the PzIVHs are gone from the Tits area, there's a whole lot less reason not to do this. The major risk of it then being snakes with Shreks in the grass... GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted May 22, 2013 Author Share Posted May 22, 2013 Movie 38, 0:33-0:32 Dang, Bil is pushing hard with his PzIVhs. How does he know I don't have bazookas galore in the grass there - he knows I do have forces there!? I _do_ have one unit with satchels that might get in range of these guys, if the grass treats them kindly, and one bazooka a little further back, also now hiding and waiting. Meanwhile, the rest of the guys have bailed out in the face of nasty big tanks, and are safely over the road into my left centre midfield. If you recall, about a turn ago I mentioned it would be safe for my centre M10 to keep watching the right flank for about a minute, before Bil would have a chance to get mortars lined up for there. Right on schedule: Thankfully, both centre M10s got back to the other side of the road before any harm was done. Now they have the opportunity to do the counter-attack that Ken has been hollering for. This is not without its risks, because a nasty tank-killer could materialize up the centre left (as shown above) ... but I have done the best I can to counter for this, with an ATG (back left) and bazookas in place to try to disuade such a thing. The only asset I'm aware of that might be placed for this is a Brummbar that I have lost track of. On the left flank, it does appear that Bil is winding up a punch: the JgPz is on it's way, and HTs appear to be as well. I'm a little surprised he's abandoned the Hill 130 overwatch ... that to me was one of the biggest dilemmas I was facing. Having it gone frees up movement some more - though of course I'm sure I'll hate it when the JgPz arrives up close. One other thing to report: WTF with mortar rounds landing in my reverse-slope location where the AAHT is!? I have no idea how he can see back here!? GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted May 23, 2013 Author Share Posted May 23, 2013 Movie 39, 0:32-0:31 I'm still struggling to get any little break... It was of course a long shot that my satchel guys might take down a PzIVh, but darn its a shame that this guy suddenly veered left to bear direct down on them instead of passing by with his side exposed! TC is killed ... but so is satchel guy! Similarly, while I'm delighted to have gone another turn without losing any more assets, I could have asked for just a bit of a break with my M10 rush... the M10 arrived hull down looking down on the right wing PzIVhs... but he hasn't spotted it yet... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted May 23, 2013 Author Share Posted May 23, 2013 So ... I'll area fire along that line and see if that gets me anything, before once again pulling back as presumably the mortars rain in again. Meanwhile, Bil is thumbing his nose at me up the right flank, by bringing forwards to Hill 126 a KW of some sort... He knows I can't do anything about this - I've had to pull back from the centre right ridge due to Elefants and Brumbars and PzIVhs, and I can't come forwards from behind Hill 126 either... Meh! GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hister Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 Don't make irrational moves now that you got squeezed god damn it! Stay calm please. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinnart Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 The satchel attack looked to me it really did not have a good chance from the start. The best luck I have seen with it is to be in better cover and concealment than where you placed your guys. Attacking with satchels from the woods on a stationary, or slow moving tank that is close has the best chance to succeed. I am not sure how deep the arc was. I think they throw at a max around 30m. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted May 23, 2013 Author Share Posted May 23, 2013 The arc was 30m. I was thinking that the concealment would be excellent.... and I think it was: the tank didn't pick my guys up till they opened fire. If it had continued on it's previous path, it would have intersected the arc at an angle where its side was in full view... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted May 24, 2013 Author Share Posted May 24, 2013 I've found M10 hull down a pretty tough tank against a PzIV. And it can often survive a first hit. Hmm - I wonder if Bil sent you over here to say that, and lull me into a false sense of security? Movie 40, 0:31-0:30 Bil's PzIVh spotted and killed my M10 before my M10 could even get a round of area fire in the direction of the PzIVh - at that time, my M10 had still not spotted the PzIVHs - the dead M10 spotted the PzIVH after it fired the deadly shot... However, there was a worse insult this turn: Bil drove his KW right across the field of view of the HMG bunker and on into Tame with barely a scratch. As the KW drove across the exposed face of Hill 126, the HMG bunker fired a single burst, which was reported to have penetrated the KW - a vehicle that was chock full of meaty targets (4 guys). There was no visible result - it continued driving, and the HMG did not fire again. Well - that catches me completely flat-footed. I was not planning to have arrivals in Tame for at least another 3-4 minutes - I thought Bil would be forced to either deal with that bunker, or go around the back (where my defenders are). "Fall back!!" GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weta_nz Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 Haha - good to see you can see the humorous side . Enjoying the AARs 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 Regarding the KW was this action pre-dating the final GL version with more damage to soft-skin vehicles? The results of the M10 vs MkIV in terms of spotting chime with my experience four dead never spotting the IV first. Your commander a +1 mine -2. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ropey Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 Having walked the battlefield a couple times I can confirm that the scenario is not reflecting the reality. Topography is nicely done, but the amount of cover (long grass) modelled is far too generous, and the vehicle access is completely wrong. One reason SMI was such a tough nut to crack was that there was no access for vehicles except along the ridge road that was heavily mined. A company of American Shermans tried to follow a farm track down into the valley on GaJ's left flank (north) but got hopelessly bogged. The tanks on the road suffered heavy casualties from both mines and AT. It became an infantry battle, though the Germans had a few Semovente's in support. Whether it would remain an interesting scenario or even map with these issues corrected is questionable. On the question of the survivability of AT, I was amazed at the number of German ATG (excluding the Hitler Line Pantherturms) destroyed/damaged/captured in the Liri offensives that had clearly caused little damage to the Allied armoured forces. If each one had taken out one tank the attack would have been a different story. Tank losses to infantry weapons were quite high though - panzerfaust/panzerschreck were ubiquitous it seems. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinnart Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 The arc was 30m. I was thinking that the concealment would be excellent.... and I think it was: the tank didn't pick my guys up till they opened fire. If it had continued on it's previous path, it would have intersected the arc at an angle where its side was in full view... Yeah, the AI decidng to shoot vs. throw ruined the ambush. Perhaps players will have more control over being able to throw statchels someday again as in CMx1. I liked it better that way. I am sure there have been tests out there as to what range they are most likely to throw, but I can't recal. I am sure it is the closer the more likely. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 Having walked the battlefield a couple times I can confirm that the scenario is not reflecting the reality. Topography is nicely done, but the amount of cover (long grass) modelled is far too generous, and the vehicle access is completely wrong. One reason SMI was such a tough nut to crack was that there was no access for vehicles except along the ridge road that was heavily mined. A company of American Shermans tried to follow a farm track down into the valley on GaJ's left flank (north) but got hopelessly bogged. The tanks on the road suffered heavy casualties from both mines and AT. It became an infantry battle, though the Germans had a few Semovente's in support. Whether it would remain an interesting scenario or even map with these issues corrected is questionable. This is not a scenario, it is a QB and the force selection is deciding the new reality. This is in no way a replay of that battle, it is just similar terrain. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ropey Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 Duh. It's not the reality of the battle I am commenting on sburke - that much is obvious! However, the map IS one of a real place where a real battle was fought. It currently isn't reflecting the factors that shaped that real battle, and if it comes to be used in a scenario that scenario will be flawed. However Bil has already said that there is still work to be done, including swamp at the bottom of the valley(s?), terraces, and so on. Perhaps he will also work on the grass that seems to be concealing his forces more than would be expected. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 Duh. It's not the reality of the battle I am commenting on sburke - that much is obvious! However, the map IS one of a real place where a real battle was fought. It currently isn't reflecting the factors that shaped that real battle, and if it comes to be used in a scenario that scenario will be flawed. However Bil has already said that there is still work to be done, including swamp at the bottom of the valley(s?), terraces, and so on. Perhaps he will also work on the grass that seems to be concealing his forces more than would be expected. Sorry if I misunderstood your intent, I didn't think it was that obvious.... obviously I might have been wrong. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted May 26, 2013 Author Share Posted May 26, 2013 Haha - good to see you can see the humorous side . Enjoying the AARs Thanks for laughing at my joke. It can be hard to see the humorous side at times like this, but having someone laugh at a joke is always nice... GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weta_nz Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 No worries bro - I actually laughed out loud when I seen it. I wish I could offer some great tactical advice but I'm a tactic's novice. I'm learning heaps from these excellent AARs though so thankyou. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted May 26, 2013 Author Share Posted May 26, 2013 Movie 41, 0:30-0:29 Well, at least one thing worked to plan, though even while this happened things were not ideal Bil's "armour" continues to press fast up the centre right, running ahead of it's infantry screen... Bazinga, take that... But then, I ran into one of the real beefs that I have with CMx2 at the moment: covered arc mechanics: This guy lept out of the HT, escaped the first round of fire (unlike his buddy nearby) ... and run out of the covered arc. What do my guys do? Ignore him! It's nuts. Covered arcs are for setting ambushes, but once units come under fire, it's crazy that they continue to honour the arc. Anyhow... at least I scored a kill. Enough of that.... Further up the ridge, I popped a MMG over the road to try to keep tripping up the infantry screen and pull the tanks forwards ahead again. They opened fire on the approaching infantry screen, and were duly taken out by the accompanying tank. The tank is barely meters behind the inf. I'm hoping that the next contact will be with the remaining inf group, which will reveal the tank to the bazooka stationed nearby. Fingers crossed on that one. Meanwhile, the HMG bunker continues to be totally useless. An infantry unit followed the path of the KW last turn, heading up the guys of the valley to Tame. The bunker failed to spot them: WTF? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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