Gustav Line QB AAR - Peanut Gallery: No GaJ, No Bil

[slysniper]

^^^

Bil's knowledge (eyeballs on the enemy, TO&E peeking, at whatnot) has been the key. That, and a bit of patience. And luck.

FWIW, although I try not to peek at enemy unit titles, I do. (Iron mode is my preferred mode.) I NEVER try to reconstruct an enemy order of battle and try to suss out how many of what he may have left. That's not a criticism, or praise, of Bil, just a statement of how I play. Bil shows how important that information can be.

Ken

Yes, but he is also playing a QB where he knows the amount of points and goes and disects what the otherplayer has. So it makes the task easy for him, once again a reason I am not a fan of QB's, not a realistic skill one would develope in the real world, is it.

[Michael Emrys]

Yes, but he is also playing a QB where he knows the amount of points and goes and disects what the otherplayer has. So it makes the task easy for him, once again a reason I am not a fan of QB's, not a realistic skill one would develope in the real world, is it.

Governments in conflict or potentially in conflict expend a considerable amount of resources and effort to try to do exactly that. How accurate the resulting product is and how much of that information filters down to the CM level varies widely, but estimating the opposing forces truly is a real world skill.

Michael

[slysniper]

Governments in conflict or potentially in conflict expend a considerable amount of resources and effort to try to do exactly that. How accurate the resulting product is and how much of that information filters down to the CM level varies widely, but estimating the opposing forces truly is a real world skill.

Michael

Yes, but not by the methods demostrated here.

Now, if he had captured and tortured a few prisioner, then maybe he should have some of the information he has at this point in the game?

Now there is the next level for BF in game design.

[sfhand]

^^^

Bil's knowledge (eyeballs on the enemy, TO&E peeking, at whatnot) has been the key. That, and a bit of patience. And luck.

FWIW, although I try not to peek at enemy unit titles, I do. (Iron mode is my preferred mode.) I NEVER try to reconstruct an enemy order of battle and try to suss out how many of what he may have left. That's not a criticism, or praise, of Bil, just a statement of how I play. Bil shows how important that information can be.

Ken

As is stated in Bil's thread, it sure would be nice if the highly detailed enemy unit information wasn't available, at least in elite and iron modes. The generic icon is a step in the right direction, maybe it is possible to have the information panel empty until the generic icon switches to a unit icon. I always look at my own units info panel which seems to make it reflexive to look at the enemy's panel as well even though I'd rather not.

[sburke]

Much as I have enjoyed watching Bil suss out his opponents forces from intel, I don't think it in itself is a deciding factor. You can always mess with someone by selecting forces then deleting units to confuse them. Is it worth the time.. I doubt it. I don't think Bill is positive that he only faces 2 Pzs. His detailed assessment did not include armor, just what infantry he is facing.

What I think has been more important is his pursuit of intel allowed him to get an idea on what the enemy force was up to and what avenues of approach had been left unattended. Bil loves recon and does it well. He then develops his plan based on his recon. GAJ on the other had formulated a plan and enacted it with no intel. What he is finding is his force selection was for a different type battle than what he has got.

[$Pec5]

Given the latest update from Bil, is everyone in agreement that this game is pretty much in his hands?

Id be very surprised if the PzIV survives next turn. The most damage that it will likely do is take out a single stuart. That will leave a stuart and three shermans left to Bil with no AFVs for GaJ.

If you do agree that this game will handly be won by Bil, what do you think went wrong with GaJ? Was he doomed from the start because of the armor imbalance caused by his unit selection? Do you think that his tactics were lacking (limited scouting intel, bunched troop formations, split force in two, general lack of mobility caused by an absence of half tracks or trucks)? What caused GaJ's demise?

[c3k]

GaJ's last hope resides in his 'schreck teams. He'll need to preserve them, while at the same time forcing Bil to bring his tanks in close, rather than standing back and destroying his forces piecemeal.

The initial armor imbalance was a large factor in this predicament. I haven't counted noses, but it seems almost as if the infanty forces are about the same and that the only difference is OBA vs. more tanks.

[Alan8325]

Given the latest update from Bil, is everyone in agreement that this game is pretty much in his hands?

Id be very surprised if the PzIV survives next turn. The most damage that it will likely do is take out a single stuart. That will leave a stuart and three shermans left to Bil with no AFVs for GaJ.

If you do agree that this game will handly be won by Bil, what do you think went wrong with GaJ? Was he doomed from the start because of the armor imbalance caused by his unit selection? Do you think that his tactics were lacking (limited scouting intel, bunched troop formations, split force in two, general lack of mobility caused by an absence of half tracks or trucks)? What caused GaJ's demise?

Being a meeting engagement on a open map, I think the biggest mistake GaJ made was trading some armor for artillery. Armor has such an advantage over infantry in open ground and it's tough to use artillery when everyone is moving. Having said that I believe that the amount of cover and concealment of the rocky terrain tile needs some major adjusting upwards.

After the battle started, Bil moved his troops in a more cautious way, did better recon, placed his tanks well, kept moving and adjusted strategy on the fly. GaJ ended up with his troops isolated in a couple of valleys. In a meeting engagement on an open map like this one, I think the best way of using GaJ's artillery would be as an area denial weapon on "harass" setting to block valleys and ridgelines from Bil's use while GaJ moves his forces. But again, artillery is hard to use while everyone is moving.

[Andrew H.]

If you do agree that this game will handly be won by Bil, what do you think went wrong with GaJ? Was he doomed from the start because of the armor imbalance caused by his unit selection? Do you think that his tactics were lacking (limited scouting intel, bunched troop formations, split force in two, general lack of mobility caused by an absence of half tracks or trucks)? What caused GaJ's demise?

I think the biggest issue is the armor: give GaJ another Pz IV and two...I don't know, Pz III's? and the game would still be winnable even now. But if he has them from the beginning, he doesn't have to be as cautious with his tanks as he was (remember, he spent most of the beginning moving his tanks around in cover, rather than using them against enemy troops). One effect of this would be that Bil's intel wouldn't have been as good because more tanks means more of his teams get shot up.

[slysniper]

Other than, purchase selection, battle plan, use of units and general skill level of play. I think he did really well in the other aspects of the fight.

Lets see, that leaves being killed. Yes, he is doing very well there

[sburke]

LOL lighten up. It took some guts to volunteer for a public AAR having no idea what it was gonna be like. How many of us like having the whole community dissect our every move while they know far more about what is going on?

We should appreciate his intrepid love of the game.

[Michael Emrys]

Other than, purchase selection, battle plan, use of units and general skill level of play. I think he did really well in the other aspects of the fight.

Lets see, that leaves being killed. Yes, he is doing very well there

Cruel, cruel! But true.

Michael

[jpratt88]

Bill fights the way we were trained...scouts out! U.S. Military has always been obsessed with intel and information and it is drummed into your head...the four Fs...Find them...Fix them...Flank them and then Finish them...Bill so far has been text book and we are about to see the final F played out "finish them"

[MikeyD]

As imbalanced as the game is, its not exactly historically inaccurate. Germans often found themselves armor-poor and having to make due. Someone once said in regard to Russian armor "Quantity has a quality all its own." The same holds true with allied forces. More often than not a LOT of allied tanks have to be attrited before Axis approaches armor parity on the battlefield. If GaJ had got lucky and killed two Shermans instead of just one we'd be talking about a whole different battle now.

[c3k]

^^^ Very true.

The force selection, to me, seemed historically very accurate. An armor-poor, TRP set-up, skilled infantry force on hte German side, having to fight the armor-rich Allies.

Had it been an Allied attack, rather than a meeting engagement, I think GaJ would've been in the driver's seat the entire time. I'm not a QB point-counting grog, but I'm still a bit curious about the relative forces and how Bil had 3x the armor GaJ had, all with the same points. (Did GaJ buy an extra company of infantry, in addition to the 81mm artillery?)

Imagine if GaJ had foregone some the infantry and both tanks and instead purchased an Elephant. Bil would've had a serious problem overcoming that beastie.

A huge part of any QB is the force selection. That will drive the battle. I have muffed that portion of a QB many times.

Ken

[Vanir Ausf B]

I'm not a QB point-counting grog, but I'm still a bit curious about the relative forces and how Bil had 3x the armor GaJ had, all with the same points. (Did GaJ buy an extra company of infantry, in addition to the 81mm artillery?)

Bil actually bought one more infantry platoon (6) than GaJ, although I think GaJ's cost more per platoon since they each come with a Schreck and a light mortar (81mm).

The problem is that in addition to the 6 light 81mm mortars, GaJ also took 7 more 81mm medium mortars and 5 TRPs that added up to 558 points. He could have bought 2 more Pz IVs for that (2 x 248 = 496), or 1 more Pz IV and 2 light armored vehicles to match Bil's 3 Sherman and 2 Stuarts.

I don't think Bil has any indirect fire assets at all.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Although Bil chose a force much better suited to the terrain, what really won the battle for him was better tactics. His tanks got the jump on GaJ's in all 3 armor engagements, including the strange one where Bil's tank didn't fire. In CM as in real life, if you consistently spot the enemy before he spots you, you will win much more often than you lose.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Game over man.... game over!!!

Regards

Jim R.

[Michael Emrys]

Both players had moments of hesitation and uncertainty, but GaJ had more and they lasted longer, and IMO that's what did for him. Bil had the better plan, which started out with better organized recon which allowed him to discover GaJ's dispositions, suss out his intentions, and meet them with sufficient force. GaJ's plan to run up his right side was simply a shot in the dark. When that miscarried, he had the nearly impossible task of shifting forces to meet a new threat. Splitting his forces meant that they became isolated from each other and subject to defeat in detail. Bil's early seizure of the central valley in force assured that and may have been the decisive move of the game.

I cannot say that the game was won in the force selections by each side before the start. I think GaJ could have pulled out a win with with those forces but different play. But from the beginning of play, Bil dealt himself winning cards with pretty fair consistency and GaJ did not.

Michael

[GreenAsJade]

I agree that I could have won with the forces that I had but different play. Or at the very least, I could have provided much more of a fight.

I do not agree that my plan was a "shot in the dark" nor that "I had the impossible task of shifting forces". This isn't where the problem was.

The problem was that I had a good plan and I did not stick to it. For some reason, I had a brain fart and decided to move my tanks away from my main force and up onto the horrendous plateau, despite having previously assessed that as "the place to stay away from" - an assessment that was proved correct by events. There was absolutely no good reason for this decision - it was a crazy impulse.

My tanks were supposed to be supporting the right flank thrust, keeping his Shermies away from getting direct lines of fire onto my troops (stopping them coming over the crest as one ultimately did do), while I piled indirect fire onto his troops. (*)

In such a role, my exposure to his greater number of tanks would possibly have been manageable - he would have had the frustration of trying to bring his tanks to bear on mine, while mine were not forced to comply. In the nooks and crannies behind MonteG 2 tanks would have been defendable, with it being very hard for him to get numerical superiority of armour and with the accompanying inf keeping hordes of PIATs at bay.

I think that this in a nutshell is what turned a very interesting encounter (two different force selections) into a wipeout. As soon as I turned the game into an armour duel, I lost it. The rest of my tactical mistakes were significant but secondary.

I have to say I am still stunned by the lack of spotting that I got from the back right corner. It's been observed that I had little intel. Actually I had two units up the back there with binoculars looking over 2/3rds of the map. The fact that Bill was able to walk his force up through the ruins and onto MonteP without being seen is a complete surprise to me, and another significant (but also secondary) factor in what went wrong.

Anyhow, this is just my opinion. Having had my play assessed thusly:

(slysniper)

Other than, purchase selection, battle plan, use of units and general skill level of play. I think he did really well ...

(emrys)

Cruel, cruel! But true.

... I guess that my opinion might not be counting for much. But at least now you know what it is.

It's clear that AARs are a lot of fun and create a lot of interest. I think that the next one should be between slysniper and emrys. I am not joking: I think it would be extremely interesting for all to see them put their money where their mouth is, and I could do with the education on purchase selection, battle plan, use of units and general skill that this would surely provide.

GaJ

*: My two tanks were _not there_ for providing direct fire onto his troops. This is why I was not making a press with 2 tanks into the Central Valley - Wodin asked about that. I wasn't supposed to be trying to kill his guys in that valley, I was supposed to be killing them when they came up to the high land and into view.

[sburke]

touche LOL Regardless GAJ, thanks for the AAR. It was interesting, fun and it helped pass time till we see the module. My only regret was not seeing your FJ get up close and nasty on his guys. I am curious now to play some more with British paras as they seem to put out a lot of lead.

[GerryCMBB]

Nice AAR by both of you. I applaud GAJ for taking on Bil, who in my mind at least, has a 2-0 record in these AARs. Obviously a very strong opponent.

Gerry

[Vanir Ausf B]

I think that the next one should be between slysniper and emrys. I am not joking: I think it would be extremely interesting for all to see them put their money where their mouth is, and I could do with the education on purchase selection, battle plan, use of units and general skill that this would surely provide.

That would be great A guy who only plays against the AI vs. a guy who hates playing QBs. Really hates playing QBs. Man, does he hate playing QBs. Did I mention he hates playing QBs?

[Wodin]

Thats what I said you seemed to hesitate on the right and not carry on woith your plan and after that it seemed you struggled to work out what to do.

You did well though. Bil is very tough opposition..I'd have been wiped out well before your good self.

[ASL Veteran]

Don't take it too hard Green. The continuing commentary from the peanut gallery just comes with the territory. They are just a bunch of peanuts though so nothing to lose any sleep over. In fact, if I were a peanut I would be getting a little worried about now since the squirrels will be coming out in force pretty soon. Just putting an AAR together, let alone doing well in one, takes a lot of work so I'm sure everyone appreciates your efforts.