Gustav Line QB AAR - Peanut Gallery: No GaJ, No Bil

[c3k]

(Admin, please sticky)

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Bil, GAJ: We will be discussing your approaches/force selections here. Don't read!!!

The purpose of this thread is to have an OPEN discussion of the competing plans and forces from the Gustav Line QB threads, Allied, here or Axis here

DO NOT CONTAMINATE the respective Axis or Allied thread with ANY HINT of the enemy activity. If you want to discuss their approaches, DOUBLE CHECK that you're in this thread.

[c3k]

It's interesting to note the different approaches. The Allied side has transportation and armor. Mobility and more gun carriages; very historic. The Axis will have a bit of difficulty getting troops into position without tiring them out. He may be forced to commit his armor (the two that he has) in an attempt to buy time for his forces.

The key will be whether or not he can get his mortars in play. If so, his force could win. But, if he loses his armor early (due to the need to commit them in a bid for time), then he'll end up losing.

Any other thoughts?

Ken

P.S. It's SO much easier sitting on the stands watching the play and critiquing it, isn't it?

[General Lee Irked]

Good thread c3k

GaJ has his work cut out for him. however if he can get any vantage point to direct arty this may sway the tide.

[Broadsword56]

My money's on Bil. I can already see he's going to hand the Germans their lovely FJ helmeted heads to them.

[Sublime]

The troop experience will definitely be important. The Shermans are a tough match for the Panzers. The Panzers should eat the Stuarts no probelm. If GaJ keeps his panzers back, keyholed, he can really do some damage.

Taking no arty for Bill I think was a major mistake. I never go without arty.

Like C3K said the trucks are huge too. Even on more level maps in BN I use transportation WAY more than I used to, and take way more advantage of the extra ammo. Its huge having rested troops engaging tired ones later in the battle, makes a big difference. The key is not disembarking too late - that can lead to some catastrophic results.

[c3k]

^^^

The more I think about it, with an hour and a half battle, the ammo on those trucks could make the difference. That, and the possibility of a mounted reserve to rush about from one end of the map to another.

Of course, those trucks sure will go "boom" if a PzIV gets it!

[c3k]

I just asked Bil (Allied Side) if he'd ever used dismounted tank crewmen to scout, instead of driving the tank into view.

I've done it, but only w/large maps and open views. And US/CW tanks. I think low crawling (SLOW order) the crewmen over a ridge, near/in foliage, is VERY useful. They don't get spotted, but with bino's they can see it all. Of course, a covered arc is kinda important. Nothing worse than your guys popping off .45 rounds at 200m! (Oh, they'll hit. Yes, they will. )

Anyone else think that's a good or bad idea? Or, like Bil, do you just drive up a hill and see what's happening?

Ken

[Broadsword56]

I think it's better to dismount the tankers and scout with them on foot -- although I'll bet most of us forget that's an option, myself included. It's a fairly safe thing to do this early in the game when the enemy wouldn't be within small arms range yet.

[Michael Emrys]

I just asked Bil (Allied Side) if he'd ever used dismounted tank crewmen to scout, instead of driving the tank into view.

Not with tank crews, but with ACs. Stop the car an AS short of the hedgerow so that it doesn't get spotted, dismount the crew and have them crawl up to the hedgerow. Leave them there for several minutes to see what they can see. And yes, the short CA is important!

Michael

[A Canadian Cat]

I usually use near by infantry for scouting ahead of tanks. I think I have dismounted a tank crew once for scouting purposes. I don't normally think about it because I have infantry along with the tanks.

[General Lee Irked]

I think it's better to dismount the tankers and scout with them on foot -- although I'll bet most of us forget that's an option, myself included. It's a fairly safe thing to do this early in the game when the enemy wouldn't be within small arms range yet.

You are right however I find some scenarios have such stringent time constraints that I find myself not being as patient as I should. Then again I am the same person who stands in-front of a microwave oven and yells hurry up!

[Sublime]

yeah I dont do dismounted AFV crews unless they're immobilized and gonna get killed needlessly.

The concept isnt bad and historically authentic, I just dont trust my luck - the crew would get gunned down or something. I never (unless desperate or $hit-faced) send tanks rushing about without infantry screens. Some armored cars are different but hey you join recon thats what you get

[Offshoot]

GaJ has his work cut out for him. however if he can get any vantage point to direct arty this may sway the tide.

Does he need a vantage point given the TRPs he has set up? Are they in the right place though (see page 5 of the Axis thread)? He certainly has the overwatch ridge (P523) pegged, but the one on P511 might have been better off covering the avenue of approach through the (sparsely) wooded valley. If he can see what is going on, perhaps some early fire missions would be enough to delay the Allied deployment instead of committing tanks.

EDIT: actually, I haven't played for a while and now can't remember. Do you need to have eyes on a TRP to be able to use it? If so, please ignore what I just said, and also, would anyone else have been tempted to use pre-planned strikes with longish delays instead given the nature of the map?

[slysniper]

I just asked Bil (Allied Side) if he'd ever used dismounted tank crewmen to scout, instead of driving the tank into view.

I've done it, but only w/large maps and open views. And US/CW tanks. I think low crawling (SLOW order) the crewmen over a ridge, near/in foliage, is VERY useful. They don't get spotted, but with bino's they can see it all. Of course, a covered arc is kinda important. Nothing worse than your guys popping off .45 rounds at 200m! (Oh, they'll hit. Yes, they will. )

Anyone else think that's a good or bad idea? Or, like Bil, do you just drive up a hill and see what's happening?

Ken

I have used your tactic, which is a historically correct one also. It works pretty good in the game and is a good concept.

i would only do one tank and have the others ready to crest the hill guns ablazing if the one unit spots a sweet target. it takes too long to get back to the tank and then up on the ridge to be good at times if that is ones plans.

[General Lee Irked]

Does he need a vantage point given the TRPs he has set up? Are they in the right place though (see page 5 of the Axis thread)? He certainly has the overwatch ridge (P523) pegged, but the one on P511 might have been better off covering the avenue of approach through the (sparsely) wooded valley. If he can see what is going on, perhaps some early fire missions would be enough to delay the Allied deployment instead of committing tanks.

EDIT: actually, I haven't played for a while and now can't remember. Do you need to have eyes on a TRP to be able to use it? If so, please ignore what I just said, and also, would anyone else have been tempted to use pre-planned strikes with longish delays instead given the nature of the map?

TRP's are nice but they are still an educated guess so IMO yes he needs a good overwatch position by someone who can direct artillery.

But what do I know... I have lost more than my fair share of PBEM and even the AI kicks my keester.

And no you do not need eyes on TRPs

[slysniper]

Does he need a vantage point given the TRPs he has set up? Are they in the right place though (see page 5 of the Axis thread)? He certainly has the overwatch ridge (P523) pegged, but the one on P511 might have been better off covering the avenue of approach through the (sparsely) wooded valley. If he can see what is going on, perhaps some early fire missions would be enough to delay the Allied deployment instead of committing tanks.

EDIT: actually, I haven't played for a while and now can't remember. Do you need to have eyes on a TRP to be able to use it? If so, please ignore what I just said, and also, would anyone else have been tempted to use pre-planned strikes with longish delays instead given the nature of the map?

No, he will be able to drop arty on the TRP's without having to have sight. But it will be limited, it will only pay off if Bil does something stupid like park units within 50 meters of them and then leaves them there when he sees spotting rounds

[slysniper]

As far as I am concerned, this matchup is already won. I am sure with the force selection Bil will win, GAJ does not have good match up forces and the only thing he has going for him is the mortars in this one. The problem is, he will have a hard time even catching Bil's infantry with them and will do little vs the armor.

Bil is good with movement, so i see him taking advantage of that early, plus the map favors him a little I feel, really you just need three points to ensure a likely win and that leans his way.

This is one of the reasons I am not a big fan of QB's, selecting forces is much more of a factor to a win than game play at times, I rather have well crafted forces that should lead to a good fight and then see what the players can do.

[Broadsword56]

But at least it will be fun to see more of the new FJ units in action.

[womble]

No, he will be able to drop arty on the TRP's without having to have sight. But it will be limited, it will only pay off if Bil does something stupid like park units within 50 meters of them and then leaves them there when he sees spotting rounds

There's no point (outside harrassment/area denial) firing at TRPs unless someone has sight on them, but it doesn't need to be someone spotter-privileged.

TRP incoming arrives without any warning. If they're still there when the first round lands, they're in for a shellacking.

[c3k]

The next phase looks interesting. Since Bil(Allied) drove his tanks up to the ridge, GaJ's (Axis) force now knows that a tracked vehicle is over there. That's a big bit of intel.

Bil's pre-battle analysis was to close down the low-ground. GaJ is going around the low ground, to his right. Bil seems interested in the center and his right. (It took the US a few months to figure out that High Ground is key in Afghanistan. Yeah, villages in valleys are where the people are (objectives), but whichever force is on top, controls the fight.)

I think Bil will be caught a little wrong-footed in the opening fight. However, 5 tanks vs. 2 is a lot of armored machinegun goodness to hunt down the FJ. Plus, they are mobile, so that will be a huge advantage for however many survive the armor battle.

GaJ will need to be very careful with his tanks...

[Michael Emrys]

(It took the US a few months to figure out that High Ground is key in Afghanistan. Yeah, villages in valleys are where the people are (objectives), but whichever force is on top, controls the fight.)

That lesson should have been learned in Tunisia in 1942-43.

Michael

[c3k]

^^^

Yeah, should've. Just look at the repeated "interphone on back of tank" lesson that keeps needing to get relearned.

BACK TO THE GAME: There is mutual contact! Bil's Stuart put some rounds smack on target. That seems too good, to me. But then, I don't hold WWII US tank aiming reticles/ranging systems in high regard. Shrug.

GaJ is going strong on his right. The spotted Germs are on his left. That may aid GaJ if Bil gets sucked the wrong way.

Speaking of Bil... Having read his latest dispositions (a picture would be nice!!!), it sounds like he is distributing his forces equally across his frontage. "He that defends everywhere, defends nowhere." Or something...

If Bil stays balanced, then this is neutral. If not, then advantage to GaJ.

Or am I reading too many tea leaves. (Or drinking a few too many Black and Tans? Erin go Bragh, etc. Happy St. Patrick's Day for those in a celebratory mood!)

Ken

[JonS]

That lesson should have been learned in Tunisia in 1942-43.

It was. But it seems to be one of those things that needs to be re-learnt every generation and every war.

[A Canadian Cat]

If Bil stays balanced, then this is neutral. If not, then advantage to GaJ.

I don't know about that. I am with @slysniper on this 5 tanks vs 2 this will be won by he has the last tank standing. Unless GAJ is really careful and clever - which *is* possible - I think Bill has the upper hand.

Don't for get Bill is the one with trucks so he can change is disposition faster.

[A Canadian Cat]

Does he need a vantage point given the TRPs he has set up? Are they in the right place though (see page 5 of the Axis thread)?

That is the big question - are they in the right place. I have really only used TRPs in a QB for ground denial purposes. You can either race to the objective or you can prevent the other guy from racing there a head of you. Or both.