womble Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 Does anyone know whether the "large rocks" terrain tile and/or the rocks flavor object offers any extra cover benefit... ISTR some chagrined wailing and gnashing of teeth early on in FI when people hoped "large rocks" gave decent cover/concealment and found that it did not. I've tended to avoid relying on them since absorbing that lesson, so I'm hoping I got the correct end of that stick. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apocal Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 ...and those British MGs look beautifully positioned to sweep GaJ's approach routes. They are. And his opponent's scouts are getting hosed by tanks, leaving the HMGs unsighted... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted March 19, 2013 Author Share Posted March 19, 2013 A tank charge would be great right now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 ISTR some chagrined wailing and gnashing of teeth early on in FI when people hoped "large rocks" gave decent cover/concealment and found that it did not. I've tended to avoid relying on them since absorbing that lesson, so I'm hoping I got the correct end of that stick. I hate that tile. large rocks. it doesnt do $hit for cover and concealment, but it is still unpassable by armor. =( 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 I hate that tile. large rocks. it doesnt do $hit for cover and concealment, but it is still unpassable by armor. =( And if you try to put little (a few AS) depressions here and there in your large rocks terrain to create cover and irregularities, you end up with weird looking pockmarks or jagged spiky pyramids that spoil the map. So it looks like Large Rocks tiles are about as good for infantry cover and concealment as a backyard patio... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 large rocks....still unpassable by armor. Hmmm, I seem to have had a different experience. It's been a while, but I'm sure I passed tanks over it, albeit reluctantly and carefully. Nevertheless, they made it across and without any track damage. I was quite surprised. I have no explanation for our different experiences. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 Hmmm, I seem to have had a different experience. It's been a while, but I'm sure I passed tanks over it, albeit reluctantly and carefully. Nevertheless, they made it across and without any track damage. I was quite surprised. I have no explanation for our different experiences. No way, Large Rocks are impassible to Tanks (and other vehicles). Many maps have hills with large rocks *do* have gaps her and there that create paths that tanks can get up the hill. In that case the AI pathing system will "find" them and allow a tank to go from the bottom of the hill - and that process will be "reluctant". Even if you hut for the gaps your self and plot a good path it is painful to watch the tanks pick their way along. Probably appropriate but still painful. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 Yeah they're impassable. I found this out the hard way and even started a thread at the time complaining about it. There were 2 situations where I bought tanks and during deployment they ended up being trapped in a pocket surrounded by 'large rocks' tiles. Both times they were unfortunately also behind large mountains, and therefore completely useless to me. My beef at the time was the large rock tile is just 2d and therefore it's not obvious at all at a glance that it's impassable, it also blends in with some of the other dry landscapes too... I asked for it to be modded, never heard anything. I've never modded anything in CM and dont know how, for those who will tell me to. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 I'd wager it was a performance and framerate issue that caused BFC to make the Large Rocks tiles 2D and not let us have actual man-sized boulders as 3D flavor objects either. Just to get them looking irregular and realistic enough would be the system-hit equivalent of putting hundreds more vehicles on a map, wouldn't it? Still, to me it's a significant game weakness for Italy, equivalent to the city-fighting issues that would be weaknesses for built up areas (like Arnhem) in the MG module. Significant enough to have major effects on tactics and gameplay and the historical fidelity of the game as a whole. Most other shortcomings I find easier to overlook, and in those cases I just enjoy CMx2 for what it is. I know BFC does they best they can with the engine they have. And they always manage to surprise us with new developments as time goes on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan8325 Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 Is there a reverse slope where GaJ could possibly engage the Stuarts with his PzIVs without exposing them to the Shermans? If there is, he could put major pressure on Bils center and right (GaJ's left) forces and also force Bil to relocate at least one of his Shermans to respond. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted March 20, 2013 Author Share Posted March 20, 2013 Yeah. He's got to USE his PzIV's. Right now Bil is being a bit coquettish with his tanks, but GaJ should see that he is outnumbered in the armor battle, and all the problems that could cause. GaJ has to take the initiative to balance it out. Maybe he's hoping that Bil will be foolish and advance some tanks where his PzIV's can ambush them? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 Maybe he's hoping that Bil will be foolish and advance some tanks where his PzIV's can ambush them? Maybe, but I'm not sure that at this point GaJ has settled on that definite a plan. He had a plan, but as is the way of war, it more or less fell apart when he started making contact with the enemy. He may have come up with a new one by now, but to me it seems like he is still thinking about it. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Really the only sensible thing IMO for GaJ is to ambush with his Pz IVs. If he can find a reasonable spot and sit, he greatly increases the chances of his tank spotting and firing first. If he manages to get at least one kill this way with each Pz then the game will be a lot more even. Still, it'll be tough, and he doesn't have a lot of margin for error. It'll be interesting to see if Bil stands off or moves in. If he moves in the Schrecks could save GaJ. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 It'll be interesting to see if Bil stands off or moves in. From the sound of one of his recent posts, he is planning to move alright, but with his infantry. I don't see him recklessly exposing his armor at this stage of the battle. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I don't see him recklessly exposing his armor at this stage of the battle. I wouldn't characterized it as reckless, but he has exposed his armor quite a lot. I am puzzled that GAJ has let him get away with it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForwardObserver Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 GaJ move along the border of the map covered his flank, but has limited his options accordingly. Let's see how much damage his 81mm fires can do to Bil's forces, but I wouldn't be surprised to see the German paras contained by long range fires and possibly taken on their left flank by Bil's planned movement to the center of the map. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 well partly I think GAJ has a lot more to lose on a trade off. He needs to really be sure he doesn't suffer from the exchange. Trading a Sherman for a Pz IV would put him even more in the hole. He isn't really aware of the size of the force he is facing, but even with what he knows it isn't a good trade. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I wouldn't characterized it as reckless, but he has exposed his armor quite a lot. My point. Unless GaJ had a Panther or two (which he doesn't), Bil's armor has been kept pretty much out of reach. Yeah, the Pz. IVs could get lucky...but they could also get very unlucky. I don't think GaJ can afford anything that gives him much better than even odds on a trade-off. If he loses even one of them without taking down at least two Shermans, or one Sherman and both Stuarts, his chances of winning pretty much go down the tubes. The best he could hope for in that case would be not to lose too badly. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Purchasing a Panther and a Stug is starting to look like a better option for GaJ if he had done so (all in hindsight of course). He would have lost some 81mm mortars in the process but there is often little the Allies can do when confronted with a Panther at stand off range. Regards KR 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simast Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 From what I have seen Bil is going to win this quite easily. I like his play a lot. GaJ seems to have committed to the "boring" flanking maneuver.. And besides, GaJ already lost the armor battle with QB force selection. This isn't the Normandy bocage fighting where you can rely on shrecks and fausts. I am not exactly sure how many 81's did GaJ take - but I assume he has a couple? What he could have done early on is lay out a smoke screen on his left front to slightly confuse Bil. I am sure Bil would have committed more troops on his right side this way. Possibly even re-positioned some of the armor to GaJs advantage. Anyway, it will be fun to watch this play out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 My point. Unless GaJ had a Panther or two (which he doesn't), Bil's armor has been kept pretty much out of reach. Yeah, the Pz. IVs could get lucky...but they could also get very unlucky. I don't think GaJ can afford anything that gives him much better than even odds on a trade-off. If he loses even one of them without taking down at least two Shermans, or one Sherman and both Stuarts, his chances of winning pretty much go down the tubes. The best he could hope for in that case would be not to lose too badly. I think GaJ could stack the odds significantly in his favor using the methods I mentioned earlier. It would be risky, yes, but I am of the view that when you are at a disadvantage you need to take more risks rather than fewer to maximize your chances of winning. I'm not sure what alternative low-risk plan GaJ may have for dealing with Bill's tanks. He's not likely to sneak any Schreck teams into range in that terrain. For the moment it looks like smoke, but that is temporary. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I think GaJ could stack the odds significantly in his favor using the methods I mentioned earlier. Yeah, that might be his best shot at ganging up on Bil two against one. But he has to do it three times. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Bill wouldn't give him three chances, but if GaJ were successful in killing even one of his tanks my guess is that Bill would respond by keeping the others more out of sight, which would be a positional win for GaJ, or Bill would concentrate them more for protection, which would make them harder to kill but would limit their fields of fire and allow more than one to be blinded by a single smoke mission. Plus, Bill would have one less tank. IMO using his highest value assets as forward lookouts, even hull down, is an audacious move on Bill's part. I know he's not letting them sit in one place for long, but for all he knows a Panther or Tiger could crest one of the ridges he is facing at any moment and he has nothing to deal with one of those. At least I don't recall seeing them mention any restrictions on unit purchases. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted March 21, 2013 Author Share Posted March 21, 2013 A Ferdinand would've been impressive! It's heartening to see GaJ sending his PzIV's over to his left. It looks like he MAY be trying to use them offensively. Like we've all mentioned, the key to this battle will be the tank fight. GaJ is behind and has to even the odds. Losing a PzIV would be a big blow. Losing both may as well be the game. However, if he just sits them in an ambush location w/a keyhole, then they're essentially out of the game. He can't afford to do that. They MUST be in play. That forces him to use them offensively. Glad to see he's doing so. The key will be how well he makes out. He'll have to be pretty cagey AND a bit lucky. Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVulture Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Well, the latest installment from Bill is interesting. He seems to have accurately nailed GaJ's plan and force disposition and is going to mop up the diversionary force whilst keeping the German main body contained on the flank. I don't see this going well for GaJ from this point. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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