Hate the game

[The Teacher]

Hey Timmy

If anyone asks you to look behind the wood pile, don't do it.

Take my word for it

On a brighter note -

Take your time and ask questions if you get stumped, most if not all the gang that play this game are good on the help front.

Oh and remember, If anyone asks you to look behind the wood pile, don't do it.

Take my word for it :eek:

cheers

TT

[MikeyD]

I've often compared learing CM to learning to drive stick. No, the car isn't broken and no it isn't some cruel joke being played on you. You just have to learn how to clutch-and-brake properly. In no time it'll become second nature.

[fatehunter]

and then driving stick is awesome. (if not stuck in traffic)

[Lt Belenko]

I guess you missed the thread at how old most of us are. I just had to get my reading glasses prescription changed to make em stronger. I actually don't know any game companies that give returns. Could be some, but generally I try to make sure I think I am going to enjoy a game before buying including trying the free demos first.

+1 on what Brindlewolf said

+1 to the age thread. Even some of us old farts can figure it out.

[timmyc69]

Where to begin. First THANK YOU ONE AND ALL and I have a few comments on many of your comments presented below. Generally in response to PAK40 and Administrator about my post last November: I have resolved most of those issues/questions by just logging time hacking around. AND READING THE MANUAL MORE CLOSELY...like a math book instead of a novel. Also note that I DO have the 2.0 Vers. Bought that a few days ago. Now my only dilemma is not so much frustration or patience with the game interface or even arty though no question I have a lot to remember about your C&C comments....I am afraid that I will have to live in a parallel CM universe by playing games against the A.I. to keep learning AND simultaneously playing with my few previous Classic CMAK buddies...playing the A.I. is ok for a while but I miss the "social" aspect of playing another human opponent. Opponent is actually a strong term...we are all friendly with each other and win or lose no one is arrogant or rubs it in when you are creamed or they pull off a sensational victory. I just like to play for the fun of it....I may have not sounded like a fun guy with all that whining about the game but the frustration was like being a "blind man" when, as I said earlier, that my expectation was that the new game was just a facelift...a bad assumption. But nevertheless, I fell pray to overwhelming frustration. At YOUR expense listening to me complain, to all of your credits, you have presented me with an amazing amount of incite and answers and the best part of that is that I can cut and paste them and easily refer to your suggestions after printing them out. NOW:

PaK40 and Admin...thanks again for the encouragement and I am beyond the whining.

Macisle...thanks for the monster tutorial link

John Kettler...thanks...I will check out your tread

Doug...good advice on the patrol scenario...I have worked through that a few times now. Helped.

Vinnart: makes sense...thanks

Womble: Interesting tip about BT & Vet v.s. Warrior...I would have never sensed that on my own...or I don't think I would.

Agusto...once again your kindness is appreciated and you made me realize I SHOULD be cutting my teeth playing the A.I. but I am hot to jump right in with several of my old buddies and just get a baptism of fire...we are not playing for money :-) I don't don't care if I win or lose. Just want to learn the game and hope to be above ground for a while yet, retired and have a lot of time to play games.

CK3-I was in the Navy :-) SO I've never had an empirical experience with battlefield command and control (Liberty was good though). My education of whatever I do know about C&C being only the many and various interpretations of C&C by so many board and computer wargame designers. So I will just have to read all about in all of your notes and comments here...and be PATIENT...a virtue I am still trying to grasp after three score and more.

Teacher...YOU made me laugh...thanks

And MikeyD too...I too drove a stick of all kinds during my 50 years of driving including in the navy.

I don't like leaving out anyone but I am grateful to you all for your help and your tolerance. They named the overall label to the forums well by calling it a COMMUNITY...ALL THE BEST TO YOU ALL.

[easytarget]

I think you need play Theatre of War first, after it this game will be very easy to play :-)

This made me laugh.

[timmyc69]

I am not real versed in posting. It was suggested that I ask questions and other players are glad to assist. Do I keep posting them in this original string? or post each (or more) questions each time in a new post. This, of course, is a reply to this Hate the Game thread...so I am asking here first before I put out any more stupid stuff to whole forum.

I do have a likely dumb question now...working on a practice scenario. Really tried to recon a good spot to site a Sherman and thought he was safe from a LOS. However, he was nailed almost immediately by "something"...an AT team or AFV posted in a further field, and appeared to be at the same level as the tank..i.e. words both my unit and the enemy unit seemed to be on the same level AND there was hedgerow blocking the enemy's LOS (I though). It does occur to me that maybe a AFV was able to fire indirectly? By radio contact from an FO in a higher location, like a house?

I think a critical misunderstanding I have is simple "distance" in this game. I am assuming from this incident that (at least) in a "tiny" scenario, that any unit can see any distance and any unit can fire any distance with the exception of the factors of elevation and clearly blocking terrain. And for example, when one reads that an ammo bearer or a FO without a radio has to be "within 50 metters" my question is how does one know on any particular scenario map...the relative distance of just 50 meters...or for that matter 200 or 500 meters? One can zoom out to a postage stamp or up to a G.I's book almost filling the screen...how do you know the distance between units or objects or terrain? It is not like there is a graphic bar scale on each map. OR doesn't it matter?

Whoever said to just post questions is likely just groaning now....thank you.

[benpark]

I would suggest playing a bit in the turn based mode if you are in real time. The toggle for this comes up after the scenario choice. This will allow you to take your time, and freely replay the last minute that transpired as many times as you like. It also lets you appreciate what is happening in every sector a bit better. Real time is also great, but turn based allows for a more measured experience, which is particularly helpful when starting.

When I first received my disc for the first Combat Mission (Beyond Overlord) in 2000, I was baffled for about half an hour as to what this was. As it dawned on me that I was playing something radical, and radically better (and more respectful of the historical circumstances being portrayed) than anything I had seen on a computer to that date- I was hooked. I hope you have a similarly excellent experience.

[mjkerner]

timmy69, an Action Square (those yellow squares that follow under your cursor over the map when you click on a unit and click some form of MOVE Order), is 8x8 yards.

Also, what benpark said.

Good luck and good learning!

[sburke]

Whoever said to just post questions is likely just groaning now....thank you.

Not at all. Talking about how to play the game, tips, tactics, understanding actual practical aspects is a helluva lot more interesting than some of the back side roads in dark of night the forum can take.

Regarding your AT team or AT gun. LOS and LOF are two of the trickiest aspects of the game. Without an actual spotted enemy to target it can be really difficult to know what is in a field of fire. I have been playing CMx2 for a loooong time and CMBN since it came out and right now I am watching a bunch of my troops getting shot down by vKleist in a pbem as I wrongly assumed I had them out of LOF during a move. You can use the target command to see if you can fire at a particular location and the target line will say no, then however an enemy unit pulls up and you see your unit firing. This isn't that the game lied, it simply was telling you you could not select the GROUND in that location for area fire likely because of intervening terrain. However an enemy unit would be above ground level and a viable target. The same holds true in reverse. That one will burn you oh maybe forever. It is important to know the limitations of the targeting tool and to keep a good eye on what you think might actually be exposed areas and when in doubt - assume they can shoot you.

[Pak40]

As mjkerner has stated, an action spot is 8x8 meters. However, to judge distances better I often use the target command from one unit and 'draw a line' to other units or to spots on the map to get the distance.

Select your subordinate units (squads, mortars, etc..) and look for the C&C icons.

C2 methods are divided up into different groups and displayed in the Unit Info Panel:

The methods, from left to right, are:

Visual Contact (units within LOS of each other)

Eye Contact - close proximity

Eye Contact - distant

Audio Contact (units able to hear each other)

Voice Contact

Radio Contact

[Vencini]

I do have a likely dumb question now...working on a practice scenario. Really tried to recon a good spot to site a Sherman and thought he was safe from a LOS. However, he was nailed almost immediately by "something"...an AT team or AFV posted in a further field, and appeared to be at the same level as the tank..i.e. words both my unit and the enemy unit seemed to be on the same level AND there was hedgerow blocking the enemy's LOS (I though). It does occur to me that maybe a AFV was able to fire indirectly? By radio contact from an FO in a higher location, like a house

One of my teachers says there is no dumb questions but dumb answers... Maybe I'll give you a dumb answer I hope not

This page is really useful:http://www.thefewgoodmen.com/thefgmforum/threads/line-of-sight.8377/

Hope that helps to understand the diference between: LOS & LOF

And for example, when one reads that an ammo bearer or a FO without a radio has to be "within 50 metters" my question is how does one know on any particular scenario map...the relative distance of just 50 meters...or for that matter 200 or 500 meters?

Select the unit, then push a fire order and you will see that the range in meters will appear next to the blue (or grey / red) line. So you known how many meters there are

regards

[poesel]

There are also mods that add a grid to the ground tiles. So if you know that a grid is 8m you get a good estimate.

[agusto]

Really tried to recon a good spot to site a Sherman and thought he was safe from a LOS. However, he was nailed almost immediately by "something"...an AT team or AFV posted in a further field, and appeared to be at the same level as the tank..i.e. words both my unit and the enemy unit seemed to be on the same level AND there was hedgerow blocking the enemy's LOS (I though).

AT teams fire HEAT ammunitions and that is not able to got through the bocage (such ammunition would be triggered prematurely by the large hedgerows and also trees). Thus it was an AT gun that hit your AFV. Boacage blocks LOS for all units except if they are in closest possible proximity - an anti tank gun sticking its barrel though the bocage, for example. They are less dense then they are represented in the game. They also dont completly block gunfire, although they provide some cover against small arms fire.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_k07pirzBU34/SivGOtbVRAI/AAAAAAAABVA/T6phikSMEWU/s400/15_WWF_22_d_82AB__14hedgerow.jpg

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-E-Breakout/img/USA-E-Breakout-p13.jpg

http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/401812-4/DUdHR_137_2%23

[timmyc69]

I am playing the practice game in turn-based. I also opened up the game from the opposite side and now I think that I was incorrect in my assumption of WHERE the fire to my own tank came from (perhaps not across a field and through a hedgerow) but from an AC on the road next to a hedgerow. The other "problem" I just discovered, is not being sure what really blocks the LOS for direct fire. It would appear that one CAN fire through a hedgerow or perhaps below the foliage. What I mean is that when I zoom all the way in and move to where a man appears to be firing through the hedge I can see him firing but (unlike in the old CMAK) I CAN NOT see WHO or WHAT he is firing at. So now I am not sure what really blocks direct fire. In the old fashion miniature games (or boardgame Squad Leader) the rules of LOS are in the case of a hedge or wall, that if you are ADJACENT to such an obstacle you can see through it (hedge) or over it (wall). And if you are not adjacent and on the SAME level as the target, you can not see the target or be seen. Not sure that analogy is relevant yet it remains that even when I get zoomed in and right behind the firer, I can't see how he can see through the leaves...all I see are leaves and stems.

I must sound way off base with this observation because clearly men are firing to and from behind hedges and men on both sides are getting killed.

I also am not sure why I can see a tank fire in one instant and then after it fires it disappears from view? I am assuming that whatever ENEMY it was shooting at no longer can see it after it stops firing...either because the target moved out of sight or the tank did. In any regard is all seems mighty different from the old CMAK...because it is different. I guess it just takes getting used to.

Thanks for replying.

I would suggest playing a bit in the turn based mode if you are in real time. The toggle for this comes up after the scenario choice. This will allow you to take your time, and freely replay the last minute that transpired as many times as you like. It also lets you appreciate what is happening in every sector a bit better. Real time is also great, but turn based allows for a more measured experience, which is particularly helpful when starting.

When I first received my disc for the first Combat Mission (Beyond Overlord) in 2000, I was baffled for about half an hour as to what this was. As it dawned on me that I was playing something radical, and radically better (and more respectful of the historical circumstances being portrayed) than anything I had seen on a computer to that date- I was hooked. I hope you have a similarly excellent experience.

[timmyc69]

Thanks Mike...that helps and is an easy visual to remember....and I just responded to what "benpark" said

You guys are really helpful and I do appreciate you taking the time.

timmy69, an Action Square (those yellow squares that follow under your cursor over the map when you click on a unit and click some form of MOVE Order), is 8x8 yards.

Also, what benpark said.

Good luck and good learning!

[agusto]

Well in CMBN, a unit can alway see over a wall if the line between its eyes or optics and the target it is looking at is not blocked by the wall, independet of the distance between the two. Think of the large bocage as small walls with foliage on them. The foligae blocks LOS as long as you dont get close enough to look through the tiny little gaps, like when you look through a keyhole in a door.

If you see a tank firing and then the unit the tank fired upon loses LOS, this can be due to the smoke the explosion caused.

[timmyc69]

Very informative SBurke...and very disconcerting! Ouch! It is killing filed out there. I found the tips helpful from you and others about using the targeting command to try to discern what might be in the LOS...but I can understand what you are saying about anomalies in the terrain that could be hiding a unit. I could see a situation (like a "ha-ha" wall in the landscape) where the LOF would be blocked but may be going go right over a depression or low wall and not reveal anything behind it or in the swale...at least that is what I think I understand from what you said here. OR maybe my example is just the opposite of yours...the target command would SHOW that there was a potential LOF but not a target necessarily a lot closer to you than it would one might think....an abrupt "depression...swale" intervening between the two points could hide a man, men or even a vehicle...I think. Thanks.

Not at all. Talking about how to play the game, tips, tactics, understanding actual practical aspects is a helluva lot more interesting than some of the back side roads in dark of night the forum can take.

Regarding your AT team or AT gun. LOS and LOF are two of the trickiest aspects of the game. Without an actual spotted enemy to target it can be really difficult to know what is in a field of fire. I have been playing CMx2 for a loooong time and CMBN since it came out and right now I am watching a bunch of my troops getting shot down by vKleist in a pbem as I wrongly assumed I had them out of LOF during a move. You can use the target command to see if you can fire at a particular location and the target line will say no, then however an enemy unit pulls up and you see your unit firing. This isn't that the game lied, it simply was telling you you could not select the GROUND in that location for area fire likely because of intervening terrain. However an enemy unit would be above ground level and a viable target. The same holds true in reverse. That one will burn you oh maybe forever. It is important to know the limitations of the targeting tool and to keep a good eye on what you think might actually be exposed areas and when in doubt - assume they can shoot you.

[c3k]

What you see is what you get.

In a hex-based wargame, if there is a woods depiction in a hex, the entire hex (or the depiction) gets treated like woods. In CM, you get TREES. Each tree is treated on its own. A whole bunch of trees becomes something like an orchard, or a copse, or a woods. It depends on how many there are.

Also, in CM, how high are the lowest branches? If they brush the ground, they block LOS that low. If they start 20' high, well, the LOS is clear beneath them.

Get your camera down to eye-level. Then you'll SEE whether or not you have a possible LOS.

And, not snidely at all, READ the manual. There are golden nuggets in there.

Ken

[timmyc69]

Thanks Agusto...another valuable tip...both the explanation of firing to or looking from a hedge or wall...and the reason a vehicle may appear and the disappear...helpful.

Well in CMBN, a unit can alway see over a wall if the line between its eyes or optics and the target it is looking at is not blocked by the wall, independet of the distance between the two. Think of the large bocage as small walls with foliage on them. The foligae blocks LOS as long as you dont get close enough to look through the tiny little gaps, like when you look through a keyhole in a door.

If you see a tank firing and then the unit the tank fired upon loses LOS, this can be due to the smoke the explosion caused.

[timmyc69]

Thanks CK...I am reading the manual but it is slow work and I keep interrupting my reading because I am dying to spend time "in" the game...but it is good advice. I used to be sysop of sorts a number of years ago and my message used to be the same...read the manual that's why they printed it.

As to trees and foliage and heights and such...I am retired landscape architect and so in any game terrain...board hex or computer game...I tend to take the trees, woods and topography...sometimes too literally and sometimes too liberally. I think here in this game unlike the classic CMAK et.al. you could sidle a take or squad up to a tree or mass of shrubs and the LOS was always "clean" cut meaning you either could see or not...in this game as you say...you have to look through the gaps...better and more refined graphics make the new game much more realistic.

[DaddyO]

Here's a link to the best starter tutorial out there:

Be sure to hit "Show more" to see the time links by topic.

It is version 1, so if you have v2, some things may be a little different. Most of it still applies, though.

As others have said, it takes time and effort to learn the game, but the rewards are great if you do.

I am attempting to watch this tutorial, but it doesn't stream fast enough to keep up with the video, thus frequent long pauses that interrupt the flow of the narrative to the point where it is almost unwatchable. This is by no means a knock on the person who made it, just a statement of fact on my machine, which has no trouble on other videos. I am really appreciative of the generosity of people who do these sorts of things.

Is anyone aware of a way to overcome this obstacle? I cannot find any way to pre-download the video.

[Vencini]

I am attempting to watch this tutorial, but it doesn't stream fast enough to keep up with the video, thus frequent long pauses that interrupt the flow of the narrative to the point where it is almost unwatchable. This is by no means a knock on the person who made it, just a statement of fact on my machine, which has no trouble on other videos. I am really appreciative of the generosity of people who do these sorts of things.

Is anyone aware of a way to overcome this obstacle? I cannot find any way to pre-download the video.

This video it's interesting too. There are more videos like this

[DaddyO]

Thanks, Vencini, the videos were excellent and concise.

[Macisle]

I am attempting to watch this tutorial, but it doesn't stream fast enough to keep up with the video, thus frequent long pauses that interrupt the flow of the narrative to the point where it is almost unwatchable. This is by no means a knock on the person who made it, just a statement of fact on my machine, which has no trouble on other videos. I am really appreciative of the generosity of people who do these sorts of things.

Is anyone aware of a way to overcome this obstacle? I cannot find any way to pre-download the video.

That's strange. I've never had any problems with it and have used various rigs and from different locations. I just tried it and it ran perfectly.

-Maybe just bad luck.