Past player of Combat Mission needs some input please.

[USArmyVeteran]

I used to play these games quite a bit years ago when they first came out. I started with Barbarossa to Berlin, which I felt was probably the most detailed and thoroughly enjoyable games made reflecting that theater of WWII. I then purchased Overlord, which I enjoyed as well, then Afrika Corps, which didn't hold my interest for very long.

I pretty much completely forgot about battlefront and the combat mission enterprise until recently stumbling across information on Fortress Italy. The engine looks vastly improved from the original game and to my absolute shock, it appears you can now play the game in real time. Playing combat mission style game in real time, with a full campaign was a dream of mine for a long time. I played a pen and paper style campaign someone on these boards came up with for Barbarossa, but that was the extent of it for me. So here's my questions if someone would be willing to help me out:

1) How is playing in real time? Is it equally as interesting as the turn based system? And can you play real time in the single player game?

2) How does the campaign work? Is there flexibility in selecting your troops? i.e. You have a pool of currency you can spend towards certain types of equipment similar to the way quick battles worked?

3) Does your equipment/troops carry over from battle to battle during campaign, so doing well in battles has rewards and advantages?

4) Is the game enjoyable/challenging as a single player?

5) Can you alter the events of WWII in the campaign? i.e. Can the Italians win/the Allies lose?

Thanks for any input on this. I'm really looking forward to getting this game if some folks could give me some insight on it.

[GreenAsJade]

Get the demo.

GaJ

[c3k]

Yes.

(This is filler.)

[Michael Emrys]

I'll try to be a bit more expansive in my answer than the two sluggards above (although their advice is sound).

1) How is playing in real time? Is it equally as interesting as the turn based system?

I can't really speak to that since I only play WEGO. But quite a few players play RT and seem to like it well enough, so I suppose it works alright.

And can you play real time in the single player game?

Yes.

2) How does the campaign work? Is there flexibility in selecting your troops? i.e. You have a pool of currency you can spend towards certain types of equipment similar to the way quick battles worked?

You may have a misconception about this. A campaign consists of a series of linked scenarios that have been created by their author. You do not purchase anything, but what you get in a scenario may depend on how you did in previous scenarios.

3) Does your equipment/troops carry over from battle to battle during campaign, so doing well in battles has rewards and advantages?

Yes for your core units. In specific scenarios you may gain or lose attached reinforcements.

BTW, it is my understanding that some campaigns have branching evolution. I.e., there may at some point or other in a campaign be parallel scenarios that you must choose between and that will take you in different directions onto different maps where you will encounter different enemy forces.

4) Is the game enjoyable/challenging as a single player?

It's how I play, so I would say yes. However, it appears that a majority of posters on this board prefer to play against a live opponent, by PBEM for instance.

5) Can you alter the events of WWII in the campaign? i.e. Can the Italians win/the Allies lose?

Er, the Italians (or Germans) can certainly win a particular fight. I don't know about changing the whole course of the war though...

Thanks for any input on this. I'm really looking forward to getting this game if some folks could give me some insight on it.

I hope this has helped. To repeat what has been said before, give the demo a spin. Be forewarned that the initial learning curve is quite steep, so first of all, be patient and hang in there. CMx2 is a great deal more complicated than x1, so there is a lot to learn. One nice thing about getting the full game is that it comes with a couple of training campaigns that make learning the game less painful.

Michael

[slysniper]

I will add a few comments.

As was mentioned, the campaigns are different than you are thinking but.

Some of them are very enjoyable and link missions well and you get a real connection to some of your units and play in a manor that is more realistic.

Also campaigns are a one person option only. All I can say is it is much improved over the old system. Some of the designers do a good job at giving you a hard AI opponant.

I enjoy them and that is coming from someone tht is pretty much a HtoH fan only type of guy.

As for playing Real Time, I find it great when playing the AI in these Campaigns, it adds to you not being able to disect the battle and actually speeds up the play to a enjoyable level. But at times playing the Wego method cannot be beat. At least now you have the two options and they both have strengths.

But I would recommend the CMBN game over this one at the moment as for campaign type play, but never know, what might come out in the future. but present missions for me seemed a little weak compared to some from the other series.

[mjkerner]

I started out playing CMBN in RT since that is all I played in CMSF (I never played CMx1), but quickly switched to WEGO since RT doesn't have replay function, and it was impossible for me to resist watching a mini WW II movie every turn!

[Lt Belenko]

Just one quick mention about CMBN vice CM Italy. There are some upgrades to the CM Italy game over the CMBN, however ANY DAY NOW the same upgrades will be available for CMBN and will be included in any new purchases.

[Blazing 88's]

I used to play these games quite a bit years ago when they first came out. I started with Barbarossa to Berlin, which I felt was probably the most detailed and thoroughly enjoyable games made reflecting that theater of WWII. I then purchased Overlord, which I enjoyed as well, then Afrika Corps, which didn't hold my interest for very long.

I pretty much completely forgot about battlefront and the combat mission enterprise until recently stumbling across information on Fortress Italy. The engine looks vastly improved from the original game and to my absolute shock, it appears you can now play the game in real time. Playing combat mission style game in real time, with a full campaign was a dream of mine for a long time. I played a pen and paper style campaign someone on these boards came up with for Barbarossa, but that was the extent of it for me. So here's my questions if someone would be willing to help me out:

1) How is playing in real time? Is it equally as interesting as the turn based system? And can you play real time in the single player game?

2) How does the campaign work? Is there flexibility in selecting your troops? i.e. You have a pool of currency you can spend towards certain types of equipment similar to the way quick battles worked?

3) Does your equipment/troops carry over from battle to battle during campaign, so doing well in battles has rewards and advantages?

4) Is the game enjoyable/challenging as a single player?

5) Can you alter the events of WWII in the campaign? i.e. Can the Italians win/the Allies lose?

Thanks for any input on this. I'm really looking forward to getting this game if some folks could give me some insight on it.

My two cents:

Unfortunate about your lack of interest in CMAK, North Africa is my favorite theatre along with the Ostfront (especially 41- late 43). I love the North African battles (41-43). Hear that BFC!! hint hint Luckily I still love CMx1 (CMBB and CMAK) they are still spinning on my HD's for my other theatre fixes. hundreds of user made scenarios / operations that I have not even checked out yet, let alone RobO's great ROQC (a quick campaign generator layer for CMx1 CMAK and CMBB) available at CMMODS... so I will be ok until hopefully my fav theatres are covered by CMx2.

Thank goodness CMFI came out, I can only handle a few battles at a time in the bocage country, claustrophobia. I like my German optics to be used as they were meant to be used.

1) Don't know I only use WEGO, real time does not interest me at all.

2) As was mentioned, campaigns are linked scenarios with the direction of the campaign branching pending on outcomes in your battle.

3) What ME mentioned in his post.

4) Fun and challenging yes the AI is as I have not mingled with the H2H part of it.

5) You may win the battles, no to altering the way WWII is decided however.

From what I have read on these forums, it sounds like making scenarios, let alone campaigns and the maps take a whole lot of effort and patients for the designer. So it may take awhile until the

scenario / campaign downloads are as abundant as they are for CMx1.

Enjoy.

[Erwin]

+1 re Blazing 88's comments. Some of us really like CMAK (we still play). Wide open maps (altho' the terrain can still be varied and interesting with gullies, wadis, hills etc), lots of maneuver rather than one assault after another. Long range firefights.

[kohlenklau]

US Army Veteran,

Trust us, you will love the game.

Quit wasting the weekend NOT playing and pay for your download.

You could be in a battle tonight!

Repository on the BF website has all the user made mods, maps, scenarios and campaigns.

Buy both CMBN and CMFI.

I loved CMAK because it became for me what I called CMBO2. I used the mods for uniforms with gloves, winter gear and had a blast playing various Bulge type battles, operations and campaigns.

[Badger73]

Michael Emrys answered this well above. I concur with all his points. I reiterate others who say CMx2 has a steep learning curve. Download the demo's and give yourself plenty of time for trial and error.

I only play solo and have found this to be the WW2 tactical game par excellance! When I learn to play it better, down the road I hope to enjoy PBEM opportunities as well.

Good luck and good gaming!

[MikeyD]

Most initial complaints about the game are rather like teenagers complaining about how hard their dad's car is to parallel park. There's nothing wrong with the car, you just need to practice til it becomes second nature. Don't just download the demo, download the demo(s). CMFI uses the most advanced v2.0 game engine but playing the CMSF, CM:Afghanistan, and CMBN demos will provide you with valuable (and fun) practice at 'parallel parking' the game.

[Mord]

Also worth mentioning (if you don't already know) is the base game will be expanded with modules. If you are surprised to find particular formations missing, fear not they will appear eventually, Waffen SS, and Falls come to mind, as well as Brits and Canadians and their respective vehicles. Check out CMBN's or CMSF's pages to get an idea.

Mord.

[USArmyVeteran]

Ha! CMAK fans are out in full force! I didn't dislike AK. I think I had played the games prior to death and had burned myself out. I didn't care for the wide open terrain either. But that's not my fault! I swear! I grew up watching movies about the Vietnam war, so I've always enjoyed small squad combat in heavy terrain with clever ambushes over tank warfare or large open expanses.

I appreciate all the input...I really do. I'm actually quite excited that there are more of these games. This is literally years of potential entertainment.

[womble]

I didn't care for the wide open terrain either.

Heh. Me neither. The few games of AK I did play were all north of the Med...

[Mord]

I'm actually quite excited that there are more of these games. This is literally years of potential entertainment.

You've got that right...even though CMA and CMSF aren't as up to date as CMBN and FI, there is still a ton of game play to be had in those as well. They are a nice change of pace when one gets tired of WWII or vice versa. I just ended a PBEM of CMSF and it was a blast even all these years later. One of the best fights I've ever had.

The most exciting thing we have to look forward to now, is that every game from CMBN on up will be upgraded with any new features that are viable for that setting. So, in essence your favorite title won't stagnate and suffer from feature envy as time passes.

Mord.

[GreenAsJade]

I don't think my advice was sluggardly. The best answers to the OPs questions honestly come from the demo, not from words.

However, it was an omission to forget to mention the learning curve. The poster who mentioned that is right: you need to be ready for the fact that getting battle tactics right takes years of experience ... it doesnt matter whether it's virtual or real. If you expect that you can leap in and start winning battles, you're in for disappointment, and you will likely start complaining about the game when the problem is your own lack of experience...

GaJ

[Blazing 88's]

Ha! CMAK fans are out in full force!...

Perhaps, I just really dig the Afrika Korps. :cool:

[vossiewulf1212]

1) How is playing in real time? Is it equally as interesting as the turn based system? And can you play real time in the single player game?

I was also a serious player and modder of the CM1 series and have been back playing these. Bottom line is they are different engines, and CMx2 has considerable improvements over CM1 but also stepped backward (IMO) in several important ways. For example, we just got moveable waypoints back in CMFI, the earlier games if you screw up a waypoint placement you have to delete it and try again. Which brings us to another step backward, in CM1 you could place waypoints very precisely, CMx2 has this action square concept which I'm sure considerably simplifies certain parts of the code logic but which I still find frustrating, particularly in try to get vehicles hull down.

WRT real time, it's a double-edged sword. You can control your units much better and avoid some of the vehicle pathfinding nightmares you run into with WEGO, but there's no rewind button. So if you're watching one part of the field and turn around and see a tank dead on the other side, you have no ability to go back and see what the hell happened. You also don't get to rewind and just watch all the cool little war stories that can happen all over the map in bigger scenarios.

My opinion (YMMV) is that realtime is better and more fun for small scenarios. For big scenarios, I play WEGO because I find the ability to rewind and see what happened everywhere is too important.

For playing against humans (and I really really recommend you do this- yes you'll get your butt handed to you the first few times out but it will also very rapidly increase your skill level), I haven't tried realtime; unless the scenario is very small my guess is you better be an avid RTS player with the ability to scroll click and order very very quickly. I stick with WEGO for head to head play.

2) How does the campaign work? Is there flexibility in selecting your troops? i.e. You have a pool of currency you can spend towards certain types of equipment similar to the way quick battles worked?

Other people have answered this, but this is another issue for me- many of the battles and the campaigns that come with CMFI consist of assaults uphill with almost no cover against infantry and AT weapons entrenched in positions lovingly crafted on subtle reverse slopes (to the degree that in real life that would have taken a couple weeks of engineers surveying) so that it's extremely difficult to even find a position to get artillery on them.

In most cases for me it ends up being recon by death, split off scout teams and send them out there to die so you can figure out where the bad guys are, then spend 10 minutes trying to move a commander or spotter into a position where you can get artillery on them while everyone else stands around waiting.

Infantry in the CMx2 system seem to be considerably more squishy than in CM1, using them effectively on attack is very difficult, they take casualties, are suppressed, and panic more quickly than in CM1.

Artillery in CMx2 is also much more effective than CM1 and dominates the play to a greater degree.

IMO Niscemi Highway is the best of the out of the box scenarios, and is entertaining with significant reinforcements that result in the tide changing directions several times. The Conrath's counterattack campaign is reasonably good but devolves into find the insanely well placed AT guns in some cases. Avoid the Troina campaign and the Ramparts of the Palikoi scenario unless your idea of fun is getting repeatedly hit in the face with a baseball bat.

Actually the Ramparts scenario is good for a giggle playing the German side, you can literally win it in the first two minutes by setting your two 150mm batteries to linear targets covering the entire width of the map right where most of a US infantry battalion is going to be running across open terrain.

4) Is the game enjoyable/challenging as a single player?

More so than CM1, the AI overall is better. It's gotten quite good with artillery, you _must_ keep your units either out of view entirely or moving if they are visible. If you leave an infantry platoon visible and stationary for more than a minute or two, they're going to be vaporized by an artillery strike.

[Baneman]

... I've always enjoyed small squad combat in heavy terrain with clever ambushes over tank warfare or large open expanses.

...

If that's what you're looking for, then CMBN is for you That bocage is ... tricky.

[Macisle]

As others have said, demos are available for both CMBN and CMFI. The CMBN demo has a very good tutorial scenario. Here is a link for an excellent player-made tutorial vid to go with it:

See the vid notes for a table of contents with links to jump to that point in the video.

I would play the tutorial battle first, then Closing the Pocket second. Save Battling the Bocage for when you are up to speed and perhaps read up on bocage tactics first.

Closing the Pocket is an excellent scenario. Be sure to understand pre-planned barrages, smoke and wind-direction first. If you are the Germans going up the center, you'll need that info!

Both CMBN and CMFI are excellent (the CMFI demo is very good, too!), but IMO, the CMBN/CW bundle is currently a better choice--if you can only buy one. It has a much wider variety of units and they have the late war infantry AT weapons. There is also a lot more content, including superb mods that will really up the look of the game. With mods, my CMBN looks better than CMFI.

As others have also mentioned, there will be a ten dollar upgrade package available for CMBN any day now that will bring it in line with the engine advances inherent in CMFI. Additionally, if my memory is correct, the next module due to come out in the next few months is "Operation Market Garden," an expansion for CMBN. That will add German paratroopers more terrain types, and many other goodies. I don't think CMFI will get an expansion module for at least four months (but I may be wrong on that.).

As for play style, I spent my first eight months with CMBN using RT, but after trying WEGO, RT just doesn't cut it for me. I had fun with it, but to me, WEGO is where it's at.

[Macisle]

If you like small scenarios, here is a link to an excellent one for CMBN:

http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=314&func=fileinfo&id=1516

It's called "Hornet's Nest" and is US vs. AI. The US goes from attacker to defender to attacker again and is one of the best scenarios I've played. There were many great moments with my teams spread out trying to hold a line, with ammo dwindling. Oh, and I had some nice ambush moments, too!

[poesel]

Which brings us to another step backward, in CM1 you could place waypoints very precisely, CMx2 has this action square concept which I'm sure considerably simplifies certain parts of the code logic but which I still find frustrating, particularly in try to get vehicles hull down.

Vehicles don't use ASs for movement. You can place the waypoint where you want.

[womble]

Vehicles don't use ASs for movement. You can place the waypoint where you want.

There's some sort of granularity, though. You can't place WPs too close together, or too close to the current location of any vehicle including the one you're placing waypoints for. Sometimes. Sometimes you can place a WP right next to the currently-selected vehicle. Usually when you have no intention of going to that new and very close location.

[Kuderian]

My two cent.

Use the one player scenarios as a training aid.

Then find an opponent and start a Wego pbem.

However good the computer AI is, and CMx2 has arguably the best combined arms AI out there, humans are unpredictable and irrational whilst computers are not.

Sometimes I have watched the same juicy minute of replay from different perspectives 15 times.

Good Luck.