Looks like Many WW2 Movies Coming!

[eltorrente]

SPR was a great war movie because of the effect it had on civilian's perceptions of war. The fact that actual WW2 veterans, and specifically Normandy vets, were moved to tears and anxiety while watching it says a lot.

Sure, you can find holes in the story or characters or whatever. It was the realistic violence and gore and terrible situations that soldiers found themselves in, that was the main point.

A bunch of random guys working together trying to survive and get home, tasked with a strange mission, and what they went through to carry it out. You can make fun of the actual mission, that is was unrealistic - but the character's themselves also thought it was crazy.. which was the whole point.

[umlaut]

I agree, eltorrente. I think SPR is a fine movie, even though it certainly has it´s share of flaws.

My biggest gripe with the beach scene in SPR was in how close to the sea wall and the base of the bluff they landed. IRL, the first waves at Omaha had to cover over 200 yards on foot before there was any cover, 200 yards and they were heavily laden with everything from extra ammo to extra rations to extra equipment. In the movie, it looks like barely a quarter of that distance.

I´m pretty convinced this is due to a practical problem when making movies: Actual distances are often too great to make sense for the viewers when they are transformed to the screen: In real life the GIs standing in the surf would have no problem identifying firing slits, MG nests and the such in the german defences. But if SPR had been filmed from the same distance these would appear as no more than dots in a blurred line in the bottom of the screen.

Directors have to move things closer to each other to in order to make them discernable on the screen.

Think of a pirate movie: When the lookout shouts "ship ahoy", the ship he has spotted is always so close that he should actually have spotted it an hour earlier. But if the distances had been real there, the viewers in the theater would see nothing but the tiniest of specks on the horizon.

[Rambler]

...apart from Upham whom I wanted to shoot myself.

I felt the same way you did about Upham after I first saw the film. However, I've actually come to really appreciate him in subsequent viewings. Why? Upham makes us confront our own fear and weakness. We all would like to think we would be the brave hero and come to the aid of our buddies come hell or high water, but, put in Upham's situation, how can we really know if we would for sure? It's easy to say that you would, but actions can be harder than words. Upham is actually one of the reasons why I think SPR is a great war film, and I think his character was a thoughtful inclusion by Spielberg.

[eltorrente]

I felt the same way you did about Upham after I first saw the film. However, I've actually come to really appreciate him in subsequent viewings. Why? Upham makes us confront our own fear and weakness. We all would like to think we would be the brave hero and come to the aid of our buddies come hell or high water, but, put in Upham's situation, how can we really know if we would for sure? It's easy to say that you would, but actions can be harder than words. Upham is actually one of the reasons why I think SPR is a great war film, and I think his character was a thoughtful inclusion by Spielberg.

I didn't like Upham either, but I know what you're saying. Even the toughest vets were shown to be freaking out in the final battle. I liked that they showed that side of it, and not everyone was a fearless hero the entire time. I also liked Tom Hanks' shaking hands. His nerves were getting to him, he was war-weary, but he did his job to the end. I thought it was a poignant moment when his hands were shown to be finally still and at peace.

[Vark]

Das Boot's depiction of men cracking is infinitely superior, in my opinion, and infinitely more chilling. I guess one of my major problems with SPR, is that I don't care what happens to any of the squad, there was no emotional link to any of them, apart from a desire to shoot Upham.

Same with Hamburger Hill, so perhaps less time 'getting it right' and more time on script and story. I challenge any person to say SPR's script was anything more than perfunctory and the story, a back of the envelope affair.

[eltorrente]

Das Boot's depiction of men cracking is infinitely superior, in my opinion, and infinitely more chilling.

Yes, I agree with you.

I love the scene when the Diesel operator loses it for a bit, walks in to the control room all wide-eyed, and it's like, "O.k. man take it easy your alright" sort of thing, and he just kind of nods and heads back aft. I also liked the subtlety of the XO's nervousness. He simply didn't like gong to test depth (and beyond), whether in a battle or for a drill. The movie didn't focus on his reactions necessarily, but it was there. Also, the Captain himself essentially gave up when they were on the bottom, and he was the saltiest of them all.

Just an excellent movie all the way around.

[LongLeftFlank]

As a foxhole-eye-view depiction of men in combat "Battleground" (1952?) has much to recommend it and is one of my favourite war films. Very similar pov to the excellent BoB Ardennes episodes. Also a vastly superior "Battle of the Bulge" film to the awful travesty of that name.

SPR alas, has not stood the test of time with me. The comic-book hand of Spielberg is too evident after scene 1. It's as much (more) a tribute to WWII media than to WWII vets. Kudos to him and Hanks for gettjng it right with BoB.

[Vark]

I think Jurgen Prochnow's look of sadness, at his friends mental breakdown, has more emotional depth than Tom Hank's entire performance in SPR, and Matt Daahmohn's entire acting career.

Andrzej Wajda's War Trilogy: A Generation had a big impact on me, as I saw it quite young and it was unlike anything I'd seen before.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

I agree. Jurgen Prochnow was superb in the film Das Boot. The final scene where he's watching his U-Boat slowly slip under the water after the bombing run while his own life is slipping away, as if inextricably bonded together, is unforgettable!

Regards

KR

[gunnergoz]

I liked Das Boot quite a bit but found the end to be pretty self-indulgent pathos. I would have much preferred an ending where they simply sail off into the sunset, never to be seen or heard from again...like most real U-boats and their crews.

[LongLeftFlank]

Yeah, it did seem like they didn't know how to end it. Allied airpower was definitely a big problem for the DKM, but most submariners were buried at sea in their iron coffins.

[MikeyD]

so perhaps less time 'getting it right' and more time on script and story

Heck, you can say that about any film these days. $150 million to create convincing CGI giant fistfighting robots but they give the job of writing the movie script to an intern.

[Michael Emrys]

Heck, you can say that about any film these days. $150 million to create convincing CGI giant fistfighting robots but they give the job of writing the movie script to an intern.

That's their estimate of what the audience cares about. I suspect it is also what gives them their jollies. Coming up with good stories and scripts is work. Coming up with impressive GCI is a job they can turn over to technicians.

Michael

[Vark]

IIRC the ending was faithful to the book, if you are going to see Das Boot get it as the five hour version not the truncated 2 hour one.

CGI is the bane of most movies now, it never look real and is often just visual padding. Watch the film Battle of Britain and then the BoB scenes in Pearl Harbour. Even though the later scenes are more 'realistic' the former films depiction of air combat is far superior.

[Erwin]

And the BoB music is much better!

[Vark]

Cannot beat Das Boots theme

Gives me goose bumps!

For another stunning piece of music, Battle of Britain's, Battle in the Air

[Bigduke6]

Another moment in that film was, when the boot is getting hammered by depth charges and starting to come apart at the seams, and just about every one in the crew is either freaking out or just about to, Prochnow's character yells "Reports! I want reports!" - and that stops the panic.

That's not just accurate for men under pressure in wars, that's like an order of magnitude accurate for Germans when the situation is going south. They're just obsessed with imposing order on chaos.

Another moment that I really like is the one in Battleground where the Germans are just about to win the Battle of the Bulge, and Van Johnson is just about at the end of his rope, and the sun comes out. His look to the heavens is classic dogface infantry, the guy who has no influence on anything, his best outcome is having the die rolls come out so he survives, and all of sudden he realizes There Will Be Air.

I think Jurgen Prochnow's look of sadness, at his friends mental breakdown, has more emotional depth than Tom Hank's entire performance in SPR, and Matt Daahmohn's entire acting career.

Andrzej Wajda's War Trilogy: A Generation had a big impact on me, as I saw it quite young and it was unlike anything I'd seen before.

[Baneman]

Another moment in that film was, when the boot is getting hammered by depth charges and starting to come apart at the seams, and just about every one in the crew is either freaking out or just about to, Prochnow's character yells "Reports! I want reports!" - and that stops the panic.

That's not just accurate for men under pressure in wars, that's like an order of magnitude accurate for Germans when the situation is going south. They're just obsessed with imposing order on chaos.

...

I believe he not only demands reports, but "accurate" reports !

- I could be misremembering though, it's been awhile since I watched it. Time for another watch of course.

[Vark]

My favourite all time line, from that superlative movie, is the captain's comment when they are trying to sneak away from a convoy escort.

"Now it gets psychological, gentlemen".

A phrase never more apt, than when playing CM.

[Paper Tiger]

For another stunning piece of music, Battle of Britain's, Battle in the Air

I was about 12 years old when that film was released and I remember how the mood of the film changed dramatically with that music. Previously, it was all rather patriotic and jolly. Then it became horrific. That short piece by Walton is permanently married to the image of some guy who jumps from his plane whose parachute fails to open and the camera tracks him fall all the way to the ground. That's how effective that piece of music was: 40 years later, I still see that in my head when I hear that music and it still makes me feel frightened. That piece certainly does not glorify war.

[TheBlackHand]

Vark, I could go down the list of why SPR is a great war movie, but why waste my time?

If you don't get it, you won't get it. My bet is, you hate it when Hollywood Liberals make a traditionally patriotic movie, like SPR. Hey, that's not supposed to be in the script!

Anyway, we pretty much agree on TRL and Das Boot. One doesn't live up to the hype, the other exceeds it.

So, when will we get to see your epic motion picture, since you seem to know so much about how to film one?

[Franko]

There is no justifiable hatred for SPR: it remains a war movie classic. Perhaps the best in in the genre. Yes, there are little details that are imperfect (A Tiger? Near the 101st AO? No Way!), but they got so much right, according to VETERANS, that its still the gold standard by which other war movies are measured.

[Paper Tiger]

Not that I pay much attention to others' opinions when it comes to movies, but the ratings tell you a lot about how successful some of these movies were. (From the International Movie Database)

Saving Private Ryan - rating 8.6 by nearly half a million voters, 5 oscars - grossed nearly $482 million worldwide

Apocalypse Now - rating 8.6 by nearly 250,000 viewers. grossed nearly S84 million worldwide

The Thin Red Line - rating 7.6 by nearly 90,000 viewers, no oscars. Grossed $81 million worldwide

A Bridge Too Far - rating 7.3 by nearly 25,000 viewers, 3 BAFTAs. Grossed around $51 million worldwide

Das Boot (extended) - rating 9.2 by nearly 4,000 viewers. Grossed ($73 million original)

That's about in line with my opinion, (although I'd rate 'Apocalypse Now' higher than SPR) with Das Boot, (extended) being my favourite too.

[kipanderson]

Hi,

Just a quick note that may be repeating what others have posted before me.

The best “War movies...” by far are Band of Brothers and The Pacific.

They film the action sequences better than the full length movies and the interaction between the individuals seems far more mature and even “realistic...”.

A very good example is that Band of Brothers can be described as Saving Private Ryan without the girlie, sentimental bits. I remember when I first watched SPR and came out of the cinema thinking “if only someone could make a war film without the unrealistic sentimental bits...”. Then to my huge relief Band of Brothers turned out to be just that.

But each to their own....

All the best,

Kip.

PS. Das Boot is also great, TV seems to do these things way better than the cinema...

[LukeFF]

While I like Das Boot as much as anyone else, it does have its flaws. One of the biggest is that it blends together different time periods in the war in order to make for a more dramatic film. For instance:

-The correspondent talks about how their boat is being sent to the Med because the Germans are losing North Africa. Huh? The movie takes place in the fall of 1941. The war in the desert was far from over there.

-We see various references to radar at times when the boat is attacked by aircraft and destroyers seemingly out of nowhere. Granted, radar was improving by late 1941, but it still had a ways to go before it really became a killer of U-boats (i.e., 1943 and later).

-The ending scene of the aircraft coming in and bombing the harbor. Again, this is 1941. There was still plenty of a Luftwaffe fighter presence along the Channel. Any attempted British attack on French coastal targets at this time would have certainly been contested by the Luftwaffe.

-The scene where the dieselman nearly loses it and the captain has to pull his pistol in an attempt to get the matter under control. In reality, if such a situation would have happened the Chief of the Boat (Oberstuermann) would have lost any confidence the captain had in his ability to control the enlisted men and would have been promptly kicked off the boat the next time they docked.

-Related to the above: if an officer (even a visiting one at that) had had a greasy rag thrown in his face in reality and the COB did nothing about it, it again would point to him having a serious lack of control over his men. That type of junk simply wasn't tolerated in the German military.

I understand why stuff like this was included (dramatic effect), but still IMO it takes away from what is otherwise a very good movie.