A Couple of Mapmaking Questions

[Rake]

I’ve been silently following the pending release of CM:BN. I’ve been excited enough to start poking around with the mapmaking tools in CM:SF to familiarize myself with the process, but I’ve come up with a couple of questions. Coming from a surveying and CE background, I’ve drawn hundreds of maps, designed many site plans and roads and have a fair knowledge of how roads, streams and other features should fit naturally with the topography

First off, I’m curious about the vertical scaling. Why, with a possible elevation change of 999 meters across a map, was the minimum elevation difference between adjacent “squares” (sorry, I can’t recall the correct term) set at 1 meter. IIRC, each square is 8 meters across. This means that the smallest possible grade change between adjacent squares is 12.5%.

While this isn’t extremely steep, over the course of any considerable distance a slope of this rate would be extremely tiring. I know that the contours can be spread out to flatten the overall rate between two points, but this results in an unnatural stair-stepping of the terrain.

I suspect the minimum elevation difference is hard coded, but wonder why it couldn’t be set to a smaller number. Even a half-meter difference would allow for a more accurate display of natural ground and would enable modeling of roadside ditches, shallow swales, etc. which could provide infantry with some (minimal) coverage in emergencies. I just don’t see the need to model an elevation change of almost 3300 feet across an area of less than 1.5 square miles (on a two by two kilometer map). That’s far steeper than the Appalachians where I grew up and probably a little bit steeper than anything found in Normandy .

Secondly, I’m looking for good links to small scale topo maps and aerial photos of France during WW II. Of course, I have Google Earth and that will help a lot, but much has changed with regard to development. I can make some educated guesses about what hasn’t changed, but around the towns and villages, and even in the road system, some photos from the time period would be helpful. Contours don’t change significantly, so some recent mapping links would be nice, too.

I have a pretty strong background in CADD and Photoshop (I'm also an amateur photographer), so I'm looking to compile and overlay this information and hopefully build some fairly accurate maps.

I have been to www.history.army.mil and found some of the battle maps on that site. Any more that I might find interesting?

Thanks in advance,

Mike

[nathangun]

Here's a site that has old topographical maps from the 1950's.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/france/

and the Normandy area here

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/france/txu-oclc-6617501-nm30-9-cop.2.jpg

Here's another good site: http://www.wwii-photos-maps.com/

[MikeyD]

...set at 1 meter. IIRC, each square is 8 meters across. This means that the smallest possible grade change between adjacent squares is 12.5%.

Don't forget that placed elevation points are usually not adjacent. If you set an elevation point of 20 on one square and 21 three squares over the grade is subtle. If you place that second 21 elevation point seven squares away the the grade is hardly peceptible.

[Sergei]

Hiya Mike, don't miss that you can, for example, stretch that 1m elevation change over the course of hundreds of meters. So you can create some REALLY smooth gradients! As for why 1m is the minimum step that you can set in the editor, I believe it's an interface issue. Showing an extra digit after the elevation in the editor would make the screen really hard to read (it already can be if you have three-digit elevations).

Secondly, I’m looking for good links to small scale topo maps and aerial photos of France during WW II. Of course, I have Google Earth and that will help a lot, but much has changed with regard to development. I can make some educated guesses about what hasn’t changed, but around the towns and villages, and even in the road system, some photos from the time period would be helpful. Contours don’t change significantly, so some recent mapping links would be nice, too.

I have a pretty strong background in CADD and Photoshop (I'm also an amateur photographer), so I'm looking to compile and overlay this information and hopefully build some fairly accurate maps.

I have been to www.history.army.mil and found some of the battle maps on that site. Any more that I might find interesting?

Thanks in advance,

Mike

This site should fit some of your requirements - the coverage is heavily centered around Caen, though, and being Scots they ask for money unless you think a 64x64 picture is good enough.

http://aerial.rcahms.gov.uk/

[GhostRider3/3]

My only question are they going to make a Huge detailed scenerio involving M. Wittman at Villers bocage. Great video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uCKhIkAgec&feature=related

[MikeyD]

You'll need to wait for another module for that. Playing Tigers against Shermans in the game you cannot underestimate the role sheer luck played for Wittman... while his luck lasted. After all, it was a Sherman that eventually killed him.

[Rake]

Don't forget that placed elevation points are usually not adjacent. If you set an elevation point of 20 on one square and 21 three squares over the grade is subtle. If you place that second 21 elevation point seven squares away the the grade is hardly peceptible.

Maybe it's just the way it looked on the elevation screen in mapmaker, but after drawing contours, mapmaker interpolates the intermediate elevations and these elevations are shown in the intermediate squares. I assumed (without looking too closely at the 3D map, obviously) that this would lock in whatever elevation was calc'd by the program

Guess I need to look a little closer in 3D. Thanks for the answer

[ChrisND]

Maybe it's just the way it looked on the elevation screen in mapmaker, but after drawing contours, mapmaker interpolates the intermediate elevations and these elevations are shown in the intermediate squares. I assumed (without looking too closely at the 3D map, obviously) that this would lock in whatever elevation was calc'd by the program

Yeah it might look that way but it actually doesn't - the editor isn't always totally truthfull, so it's best to go into in 3D mode and eyeball it a lot to see what it is actually doing.

[Rake]

Hiya Mike, don't miss that you can, for example, stretch that 1m elevation change over the course of hundreds of meters. So you can create some REALLY smooth gradients! As for why 1m is the minimum step that you can set in the editor, I believe it's an interface issue. Showing an extra digit after the elevation in the editor would make the screen really hard to read (it already can be if you have three-digit elevations).

I can see where that might be a problem. I guess you could zoom in, but it's already hard enough for me to figure out where I am when the map (in the editor) is larger than my screen will display

This site should fit some of your requirements - the coverage is heavily centered around Caen, though, and being Scots they ask for money unless you think a 64x64 picture is good enough.

http://aerial.rcahms.gov.uk/

I think I saw this site some time ago. What the heck, I've spent $25 on far less useful sites

[nik mond]

Rake had a good point about ditches and swales, especially for plowed fields. I made plowed fields in mod maps in CMSF, they look great from a distance but up close the troughs look as though the plow was the size of a mack truck.

It would be great if the map engine is ever enhanced to have a smaller grid representstion. Smaller grid squares with a .5 pitch per elevation grade of what it is now.

[GhostRider3/3]

You'll need to wait for another module for that. Playing Tigers against Shermans in the game you cannot underestimate the role sheer luck played for Wittman... while his luck lasted. After all, it was a Sherman that eventually killed him.

Yeah.. from less then 200m thats the word on the street. It is funny though how any TV show about the incident is extremely different then that written by an unbiased opinion. But yes a Canadian Tank did hit Wittman;s tank in the Left rear engine bay area. Books usually provide more details but again depending on the author, its allied propaganda.... usually. When Michael ran up onto the street where all the Brits had stopped and actually were having Tea and lunch, it was a major shock, one brit said he could see the Berets on the commanders head and it was black like the Brits? well in 1944 German tankers were not wearing the Black Beret, but many Brits that heard the tank come tearing onto the road at first thought it was a Cromwell, but then realized it was not as a Sherman Firefly burst into flames and Machine guns started ripping through other vehicles. You could only imagine the Shock and fear as this Leviathon strolling down the road blasting everything, You could say Lady Luck, or just some good old pair of Balls! In my opinion books have always provided better details then any show on the Military channel, or History channell.

TV, somehow always makes people fib.. just a little. Wittman was a wonderful Tactician, and unfortunately was tasked with an order that simply was suicide and without his gunner Boby Woll and virtually no support really He must have known time was running out, but he beleived in then men and in the machines he commanded. However this turned out to be Fate, and thank god at least Bobby made it out alive.

[theFightingSeabee]

CMBN has plowed fields as a terrain type, so you won't have to manually create them. Once you get used to the elevation interface, you'll figure out how to create just about any topography you want in your scenario.

[Sergei]

TV, somehow always makes people fib.. just a little. Wittman was a wonderful Tactician, and unfortunately was tasked with an order that simply was suicide and without his gunner Boby Woll and virtually no support really He must have known time was running out, but he beleived in then men and in the machines he commanded. However this turned out to be Fate, and thank god at least Bobby made it out alive.

Oh Man, do you ever Proof Raed your posts? Also, it's debatable if Wittmann was a "wonderful" tactician or not. The single action that he's become famous of involved a single tank catching the enemy sipping their tea; more a matter of a stroke of luck (or a stroke of retardation, if you want to look at it from the other side) than anything else.

[nik mond]

CMBN has plowed fields as a terrain type, so you won't have to manually create them. Once you get used to the elevation interface, you'll figure out how to create just about any topography you want in your scenario.

just awsome. Glad to hear the mapmaker has more stuff added to it.

[DaveyJJ]

Also, it's debatable if Wittmann was a "wonderful" tactician or not. The single action that he's become famous of involved a single tank catching the enemy sipping their tea; more a matter of a stroke of luck (or a stroke of retardation, if you want to look at it from the other side) than anything else.

Off topic but agreed. He and the other three tanks with him wound up making a rookie blunder in the end ... the three lead tanks caught in an open field by British tanks 800+ yards away on a small forested hill that wiped out the first three, and he missed the tank hiding behind a partly knocked down wall about 150 yards to his left rear flank that finished him off.

[winkelried]

Here's a site that has old topographical maps from the 1950's.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/france/

For a smaller scales you may use http://www.geoportail.fr/en_UK/visu2D.do?ter=metropole. Sorry lots of the UI is in french. Just select "Cartes IGN" in the "Cartes" folder and put the "Opacité" of the "Cartes IGN" to 100% and for the "Photographies Ariénnes" to 0%.

Remember these are modern maps, so you usually will need old maps, aerial photographs, accounts, war diaries and maybe even personal visits to find out how things looked 70 years ago.

You can also select "Minutes Etats-Major 1:40'000" for older maps. Probably late 19th early 20th century.

[George MC]

Off topic but agreed. He and the other three tanks with him wound up making a rookie blunder in the end ... the three lead tanks caught in an open field by British tanks 800+ yards away on a small forested hill that wiped out the first three, and he missed the tank hiding behind a partly knocked down wall about 150 yards to his left rear flank that finished him off.

I'd make a mountaineering comparision as that's my real life job and passion. I've had lot's of very experienced mates, professionals and top end recreational climbers get killed or injured making 'rookie' mistakes. Partly down to becoming cocky - "I've got away with it for so long" sort of thing, othertime they just lost focus for a crucial moment. Mountaineering like war is pretty unforgiving of mistakes. Sadly an old friend of mine who was 69, top of the line in Scottish climbing circles, a 'Grand Old Master', lost his life in an avalanche incident on mountains he classed as his back garden a few weeks back. Mountaineering involves taking risks. Sometimes you make the wrong call.

I'm not saying Wittman was good bad or indifferant as a tactician. But from what I've read of him I'd suggest he was a risk taker (although like all risk takers he would perhaps have argued that the odds were carefully weighed up). Guess I'm saying even the best make cock-ups, sometimes very basic mistakes and in unforgiving environments you end up paying with your life. Maybe Wittman and his colleagues just got too cocky (especially after Villers?) and well, paid for that error with their lives. Or maybe they had just been lucky before in a large armoured vehicle that was believed to be impregnable, and what worked on the Ost Front on the wide open steppe got them killed in the close in bocage?

[Rake]

For a smaller scales you may use http://www.geoportail.fr/en_UK/visu2D.do?ter=metropole. Sorry lots of the UI is in french. Just select "Cartes IGN" in the "Cartes" folder and put the "Opacité" of the "Cartes IGN" to 100% and for the "Photographies Ariénnes" to 0%.

Remember these are modern maps, so you usually will need old maps, aerial photographs, accounts, war diaries and maybe even personal visits to find out how things looked 70 years ago.

I'd actually stumbled across this site about 24 hours before your post, but I do appreciate the link. On second look, these photos appear that they may be the same used by Google Earth; the shadows and other details look identical (at least in the area around La Fiere/Cauquiny).

So far, I've found some good topo mapping for the American areas around Omaha and Utah beaches inland to St. Lo. I've also got the aerial photos of the British and Canadian areas from RCAHMS. I'm really surprised that there aren't more historic aerial photos of the Cotentin peninsula available on the web.

Anyhow, with the links I've found, and Google Earth of course, I can probably build some reasonably accurate maps... at least as accurate as possible without this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3f/Waybackmachine3.png and a trip to France.

I still wish elevation changes could be set to half-meter. Wish in one hand.......

Thanks for the help everyone!

[LongLeftFlank]

"I've got away with it for so long" sort of thing

There's a great book by industrial psychologist Dietrich Dorner called "The Logic of Failure" that goes into this phenomenon.

Apparently the Chernobyl disaster was an experienced award-winning operator crew (not drunk like some people like to imagine) who had "gotten away" with rushing through standard tests by goosing the reaction speeds up and down many times before. Until one day they didn't (another parameter had changed that they weren't aware of). The poor reactor design did the rest....

[JonS]

I'd actually stumbled across this site about 24 hours before your post, but I do appreciate the link.

Geoportail can be set to present with an English interface as an alternative to French. I think it also has German (and/or Spanish?).

There is also an online copy of the 1947 Air Survey done in France. It is quite detailed and a great improvement on any map you will find in books. Scale is roughly 1:25000.

http://loisirs.ign.fr/accueilPVA.do

Put the name of a location in the 'Commune recherche' box on the first page and click 'ok'. It gives you all the matches to that name. Be warned it does not go down to the very smallest villages so best to stick to the nearest big town and then find the exact hamlet when you get to the map.

Click on your choice from the list you are given and it goes to the location on a map window.

The scale box is on the top R/H side and if it is set too high then the Air Photo numbers do not appear in the box on the bottom L/H side of the window. If you do not see a lot of code numbers on the left then shuffle the 'echelle' down to 'Ville' and they will appear.

Go to the L/H box and click on the 1947 numbers. They are right at the bottom for most but it does have earlier photos for the large towns. Paris has a 1933 set you can get for free. Sometimes there are 2 sets of 1947 numbers and if one does not show up on the map click the other and that will.

Once you click on the code (eg: 1947_F1613-1413_0381 ) then on your map small green squares will appear.

If you are too close in to see them all you will want you can zoom out a bit on the scale but not to far up. Halfway between 'Dept' and 'Ville' seems to be the best.

Hold your mouse on the green square and the area on the photo appears.

Click on the square and a new window opens where you see 'Telecharger la photo' (download it) and 'Voir la phot' (view it in java). 'annuler' closes the window.

The preview is really slow and it is much better to download and view it as one of your own pictures.

When you click 'Telecharger la photo' it then gives you the standard options to save the files.

They are JP2 Format and if you do not are not able to open them then you can download Infanview for free. Click on the JP2 photo icon, open it with Infanview. Save it as a JPG or Bitmap and work on it from there.

The files are quite big - 10-35 mb - but the detail is amazing considering it is all free. There is a blow up of one here:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...58686#p1558686

There are also 1945 photos available, but they cost 90 Euros each.

It sounds complicated but once you get the first few over it really is quite simple.

[Rake]

There is also an online copy of the 1947 Air Survey done in France. It is quite detailed and a great improvement on any map you will find in books. Scale is roughly 1:25000.

http://loisirs.ign.fr/accueilPVA.do

Jon... This is sweet! I hadn't looked around enough to find this. Many thanks!!! :cool:

[ClarkWGriswold]

I took a look at the French reference site and the black and white pictures from the late 40's are awesome. After looking at a few you can really see what Steve was talking about in the "forest thread". The trees are numerous, but they are all very neatly arranged in planned areas and neat little rows. Outside of these areas they line the road, but there don't seem to be vast swathes of forest or wild areas. Everywhere is farm land, planted trees, walls, and bocage. Very cool to be able to see this.

[JonS]

there don't seem to be vast swathes of forest or wild areas.

Take a look just north-west of Balleroy

[Vanir Ausf B]

I have a small, hopefully not-too-stupid mapmaking question from something mentioned in a different thread:

No, it's 4x4, ie. 16 sq.km.

Is map size limited to 4 km/side max or to 16 sq. km., i.e. could I make a map that was 2x8 or 3x5.3 km?

Also, can you make setup zones that are across corners of the map instead of a side, e.g. setting up the opposing sides facing each other across a SW-NE diagonal?

[ChrisND]

I have a small, hopefully not-too-stupid mapmaking question from something mentioned in a different thread:

Is map size limited to 4 km/side max or to 16 sq. km., i.e. could I make a map that was 2x8 or 3x5.3 km?

Also, can you make setup zones that are across corners of the map instead of a side, e.g. setting up the opposing sides facing each other across a SW-NE diagonal?

You are limited to 4 km in either direction. So you could have a 4 km x 4 km map, but not a 5 km x 500m map.

Setup zones (and exit zones for that matter) can put on the map anywhere you please and in whatever shape(s) you want.