A Couple of Mapmaking Questions

[Broadsword56]

Question about the map editor:

Does it have a navigation display showing which numbered tile your cursor is on, and/or a way to jump to a particular numbered tile?

This would help greatly with making game maps from existing maps that have been scaled with a grid.

For example: If the map tiles in CMBN are 8 x 8 meters, then a 4km x 4km maximum sized map would be 500 tiles x 500 tiles.

I have a Google Earth image cropped to 500 x 500 pixels. If I set my graphics program (Gimp) to "show grid," now each square on the grid represents a game map tile. If I wanted to use this to create my CMBN map, I'd want to locate my major landmarks (such as the place where a contour line enters the mapedge). Let's say my 50m contour line enters my Gimp map at pixel 200,103. (x,ycoordinates) Now I want to find tile 200, 103 in the CMBN map editor to mark the corresponding spot. Does the editor allow this?

[akd]

Yes, the X,Y coordinate of the mouse pointer is shown.

[MikeyD]

Yes, the X,Y coordinate of the mouse pointer is shown.

Haw haw! That is funny. How many maps have I made for the game and I only now find out the map cursor shows x/y coordinates in meters running at the bottom? Imagine me slapping my forehead in surprise! This reminds me of how it only took me a year and a half to notice the direction indicator (compass) in the screen corner also had a digital clock telling military time. I ain't the most observant of beta testers.

[sburke]

I ain't the most observant of beta testers.

You aren't supposed to admit this until AFTER the game is released. :-P

[DaveyJJ]

I ain't the most observant of beta testers.

You have now become the official "why the game was delayed" guy. Shoddy testers, jeesh.

[JonS]

FWIW, I started work on a 2.5km x 2.5km (6.25km^2) map today. It's of a real area to the east of Vire, for a battle dated 10 Aug.

I'm using a Geoportail Topo map, and a http://loisirs.ign.fr/accueilPVA.do 1947 photo both gridded to 500m squares.

I started by setting my CM map to 2.5 x 2.5km (well, actually 2496m x 2496m), then putting reference hashes every 500m both to the east and to the north. The I numbered each square so-created A1, A2, A3, A4, A5, B1, B2, etc up to E5. These 500x500 squares match the ones on the Geoportail map and the aerial photo.

Next up I've drawn in the road system and the river system. Actually, I haven't quite finished the road system, but it's nearly there. I've also been adding landmarks on the roads, and the names of villages.

That's as much as I got done tonight. It took about 3-3.5hrs working fairly steadily.

Tomorrow I'll finish the road net, add a bunch more landmarks including spot heights, then start the contours. After that will come the buildings, then the bocage and fence lines, then the vegetation, and finally any flavour objects. I'll nudge the roadnet and others around as I need to when I come to the buildings, etc.

Depending on how things go, I expect to have the contours and buildings complete by the end of this week. I'll keep you posted.

[A Canadian Cat]

<snip>I'm using a Geoportail Topo map, and a http://loisirs.ign.fr/accueilPVA.do 1947 photo both gridded to 500m squares.

I started by setting my CM map to 2.5 x 2.5km (well, actually 2496m x 2496m), then putting reference hashes every 500m both to the east and to the north. <snip>

Sounds very interesting. I look forward to hearing more. I have a question about the making of the maps in CM. I was helping my son with a geography project over the weekend, that involved topo maps, so it kind of got me thinking of getting into map making once CMBN arrives. One of the things we were doing was overlaying an ecozone map with the topo index map so we could find out which 1:50000 topo maps we wanted to get.

My question is once you have your CM map grid created can you overlay an air photo or topo map over it in the editor? It strikes me that it would be handy to have a semi transparent overlay of the thing you are working on (buildings, or roads or contours) on top of the CM map editor so you can place things on the map that match the overlay.

Ian

[DaveyJJ]

FWIW, I started work on a 2.5km x 2.5km (6.25km^2) map today. It's of a real area to the east of Vire, for a battle dated 10 Aug.

I'm using a Geoportail Topo map, and a http://loisirs.ign.fr/accueilPVA.do 1947 photo both gridded to 500m squares.

I started by setting my CM map to 2.5 x 2.5km (well, actually 2496m x 2496m), then putting reference hashes every 500m both to the east and to the north. The I numbered each square so-created A1, A2, A3, A4, A5, B1, B2, etc up to E5. These 500x500 squares match the ones on the Geoportail map and the aerial photo.

Next up I've drawn in the road system and the river system. Actually, I haven't quite finished the road system, but it's nearly there. I've also been adding landmarks on the roads, and the names of villages.

That's as much as I got done tonight. It took about 3-3.5hrs working fairly steadily.

Tomorrow I'll finish the road net, add a bunch more landmarks including spot heights, then start the contours. After that will come the buildings, then the bocage and fence lines, then the vegetation, and finally any flavour objects. I'll nudge the roadnet and others around as I need to when I come to the buildings, etc.

Depending on how things go, I expect to have the contours and buildings complete by the end of this week. I'll keep you posted.

Sounds cool. A screen shot or two of the progress would be nice to distract from the wait for the demo, if you could find the time

Also, I noticed you mentioned laying roads and rivers and then doing the contours ... is that the most efficient method?

[Broadsword56]

I'm also working on a similar project: a 4x4 km zone just W of the St Lo-Bayeux highway centered around Villiers Fossard. Using Google Earth, the 1947 French aerial photos, and Gimp as my image editor.

Started with Google Earth and drew the 4 x 4km box. Overlaid the 1947 French aerial photo. Saved the image, opened in Gimp, and cropped/resized to 500 x 500 pixels. Then clicked on "show grid" and now the grid represents all the 8m tiles.

Back in Google Earth, I used the process of polygons at specific elevations to find the various contours (every 5 m of elevation) then traced the outline in red lines using the path tool. Gave the area a white background, so now I have a white 4 x 4 km box with just the red topo contours on it. Then I saved the image and placed it in Gimp as a new layer. By playing with the transparencies and layers, I can see what I want to see and locate specific features with the x/y coordinates of the pixels.

So this ought to save me time when I have the CMBN editor -- while I can't import my reference image into CMBN, I can at least pinpoint the tiles where things need to go and not have to fumble around as much.

I'm thinking I'll get the basic 4x4 box contoured and roughly mapped, then clip off portions of it to make the finely detailed maps for battles.

I'll post a few screenshots later if there's time.

[mjkerner]

@Broadsword56, practising for CMBN, I tried your method last night in CMSF on the area around La Fiere bridge--Cauquigny. I used multiples of 8--so the Google map I saved was 800 meters by 1600 meters and I set the image to 800 pixels by 1600 pixels because at 1:8 ratio which you used the image was just too small. I'm new to actually working with Google maps, so the grid adjustment system took me a bit of trial and error. I finally ended up where at 1:1 in Paintshop Pro, I had 16 x 16 meter squares, but zoomed to 2:1 they are 8 x 8. Now I have to start working with the polygon system.

@ JonS, looking forward to seeing and gaming on your map.

By the way, I can't get maps from that French website. I tried the translator, but still no joy. I'm going back in to try again, but any tips would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks to both of you for all the information on your mapmaking procedures!

[DaveyJJ]

By the way, I can't get maps from that French website. I tried the translator, but still no joy. I'm going back in to try again, but any tips would be greatly appreciated.

On the first page in the text input in green box in the bottom centre that says "Je peux choisir un lieu en précisant soit :" type in a location; i.e., Putot-en-bessin, then click the grey results link that appears below.

Then on the scrolling list of dates called "Catalogue" on the left side, click one of the dates you're you're interested in. Make sure it has the red note about being free. In my case, the 1947 photo.

The map should refresh and show a topographic map with little green crosses showing the points of aerial photos. Click one of those to see the area of the photo bordered and highlighted, then click the link in the pop up dialogue box that says "Télécharger la photo [Aide]" and it'll download a high resolution JPG of the aerial photo. They run about 10MB in size. Note, they're also rotated 180 degrees (at least the one's I grabbed were), i.e., north is at the bottom.

Voila! (Note: Your browser's mileage may vary ... it works OK on Safari at home, not at work. Firefox works fine both place. Google Chrome choaked.)

[Broadsword56]

I set the image to 800 pixels by 1600 pixels because at 1:8 ratio which you used the image was just too small.

Just to clarify -- I don't mess with grids at all in Google Earth, except as 1km x 1km zones to establish where my overall map will be. I just use GE to set the boundaries of my map and then get the image into Gimp, where I use the Gimp grids to see my image divided into 8x8m tiles. And yes, at 100% view zoom level my map looks solid black when the grid is active, because the grid is so small. But I just switch the grid off when looking at more distant zoom levels, and then switch it back on again to zoom in on details. At 800% zoom, it's very workable at detail level.

It's also helpful to turn on the "snap to grid" option on the graphics program, so that way anything you draw there -- contour lines, for example, will conform to the tiles. To draw things, use a pencil tool at 1px size with a hard edge. That will give you good solidly colored tiles.

[mjkerner]

Thank you very much, Broadsword. That helps alot.

Merci, DaveyJJ!

[A Canadian Cat]

<snip>Back in Google Earth, I used the process of polygons at specific elevations to find the various contours (every 5 m of elevation) then traced the outline in red lines using the path tool. <snip>

I took a shot at doing that yesterday and came up short - and confused:confused:. How do you create polygons at specific elevations the create this contour map? I had to move on to accomplish the task I had at the time so I could not experiment longer than a half our or so. Did you learn how from a tutorial? From the GE help system? Divine inspiration?

Ian

[Broadsword56]

There's an earlier post by someone (I thought on this thread?) that explained how to do it. In a nutshell, once you're in Google Earth:

1. Select the "add polygon" tool from the top toolbar. Select "Properties" for the polygon.

2. In the "description" tab, write the elevation you want to see. I like to start with the highest one on my map (example: 120m)

In the Style and Color tab, set the line color to something very visible (I like red), and opacity to 30%. Set the Color dropdown menu to Filled & Outlined, and opacity to 30%.

3. In the Altitude tab, Write 120m in the Altitude field and set the dropdown menu to Absolute.

4. Click OK

On your map, you should see a translucent red shape that now covers everything lower than 120m in elevation. Now you can trace an outline of the shape using the "add path" tool and clicking at points along the contour. Again, use a bold color like red at 100% opacity. Save the path using Save->Save to My Places.

Now to make your next contour, just open your Polygon "properties" box again and change the label to the next elevation (125m) and change the altitude settings to match. Click OK and you should see the polygon receded to the next lowest contour. Just keep using the same polygon, but draw and save a new path each time for each contour line.

[Broadsword56]

Here's a screenshot to illustrate the results of the technique I described earlier:

You can also see the 1947 French aerial imagery, superimposed on Google Earth as an overlay and then scaled to match (a lot of trial and error dragging the handles on the overlay -- if you can get the roads to line up you're most of the way there-- and when you get it right it's an "aha" moment. You can have fun flipping the transparency toggle back and forth -- it's the closest thing to a time machine.

[Broadsword56]

Here's what it looks like in my graphics program (Gimp 2.6) with the topographic contour image as a semi-transparent layer over the terrain:

You can see the 500x500 pixel grid, which for a 4x4km map (if my math is right??) should represent all the 8x8m terrain tiles in a CMBN map.

[A Canadian Cat]

There's an earlier post by someone (I thought on this thread?) that explained how to do it. In a nutshell, once you're in Google Earth:

1. Select the "add polygon" tool from the top toolbar. Select "Properties" for the polygon.

2. In the "description" tab, write the elevation you want to see. I like to start with the highest one on my map (example: 120m)

In the Style and Color tab, set the line color to something very visible (I like red), and opacity to 30%. Set the Color dropdown menu to Filled & Outlined, and opacity to 30%.

3. In the Altitude tab, Write 120m in the Altitude field and set the dropdown menu to Absolute.

4. Click OK

On your map, you should see a translucent red shape that now covers everything lower than 120m in elevation. <snip>

Sounds good. That was what I thought I did. So, I tried it again here at work (shhh don't tell anyone) but I did not get a satisfactory result.

The altitude value does not stick. I set the drop down to Absolute (I had to do that first because the edit box was not editable until I did that) then I tried 110 and 110m in the edit box and both times it ignored me. When I press the OK button I do not get a red polygon any where I can see but it does show up in my Places list. When I select it I see a bubble pointing to off map (which no matter what zoom level I set I can never actually find). When I edit the polygon, everything looks OK except the altitude value I set has been replaced with the default "various altitudes (min=-2147483648m, max=-2147483648m)". I must be missing something obvious. The screen shot you added looks just like I am hopping to get. Not sure what I am doing wrong.

Here is what the polygon properties dialog looks like when I open it up again. I entered 110m for the Altitude:

Ian

[Broadsword56]

I know what you mean, Ian -- the exact same problem happened to me when I tried to create more than one polygon. Only my first polygon worked and accepted the altitude values I input into the field. So I just keep saving and resetting that polygon. I don't know why the others didn't accept my inputs, or how to fix that. I looked all over the web for tutorials and help, posted the problem here, too, but never found a solution. Wish I could help you. Anyone?

[ClarkWGriswold]

Sounds like a couple of you guys have map making down to a science. It would be awesome if someone who's an old pro at this would be able to make a video walkthrough of the process. I can just imagine how awesome it would be to see a time lapse video of map creation. Seeing the Normandy countryside come to life before your very eyes.

[Broadsword56]

I don't have the video chops to do this, but it's a good idea.

Actually, Battlefront could probably make even more $$$ with a "Mappers Resource" module. I could see it including a video walkthrough like you describe, a step-by-step tutorial by the game designers that really gets deeply into the map editor and tips/tricks, plus mapping resource files like topographical maps, historical battle maps, historical photos of what towns and farms and things looked like in 1944, etc.

[eniced73]

Here's what it looks like in my graphics program (Gimp 2.6) with the topographic contour image as a semi-transparent layer over the terrain:

You can see the 500x500 pixel grid, which for a 4x4km map (if my math is right??) should represent all the 8x8m terrain tiles in a CMBN map.

Would you then have to change the elevation on each of those squares to get your topo map? If so, is there an easy way to do that? Seems tedious.

[Broadsword56]

No. According to the manual, the CMBN editor has a pretty versatile contouring feature that lets you brush elevations over swaths of terrain, making all the brushed tiles that particular elevation.

So it's not as tedious as assigning elevations manually to every tile. Instead, I would need to just find and mark the CMBN tiles where my contour lines would be -- not every tile, just enough to trace the line and places where it curves --and then use the contouring tool in CMBN to brush that elevation along that contour. Still tedious, but at least do-able.

[A Canadian Cat]

OK I am a happy camper now. I watched this video: http://earth.google.com/support/bin/static.py?page=guide.cs&guide=22365&topic=23729

The take away was that I was not making my polygons correctly. I was not drawing them while the dialog was open so I was getting a infinitely small polygon - which was not very helpful.

If I draw my polygon while the dialog is up things look good and I can add multiple layers and I get the expected behaviour. My fundamental miss use of the tool caused me all these problems.

Now I just need to learn how to edit the points of an existing polygon. Off to watch more Google Earth tutorials...

Thank for your help.

Ian

[JonS]

Sounds cool. A screen shot or two of the progress would be nice

I will probably post some progress screenies, but I won't be able to start that for a while. I'll make sure I get some of the early stages though.

I noticed you mentioned laying roads and rivers and then doing the contours ... is that the most efficient method?

Probably not, but it's the work routine I'm used to. I know I'll have to re-lay and realign quite a few of the roads, and I've no problem with that. Actually, generally I find I need to do quite a lot of post-work on the contours too.

With the 500x500 squares I'm not going for an exact reproduction. It's more of a faithful reproduction, and in that spirit I don't mind moving things around if and when I need to

Jon