A Quick Battle AAR: Shermans vs Pz IVs, Not Your Fathers Combat Mission

[Vark]

If we are talking about the Norman countryside the farming practices being used were little different from 18 Century practices, in some cases medieval, let alone before the second half of the 20th century. One of the French and German motivations for the European Common Agricultural Policy was for other nations to subsidise these inefficient practices (lack of mechanisation, small holdings etc).

Look at a painting from the 1800's of the area and then photos of the countryside in the 1940's and you see precious little difference, it's one reason we have the "France is so wonderful darling, why can't our countryside be as pretty" syndrome from some rather clueless Brits.

Oh and if you want a killer website, all you designers look at this one, you have to subscribe to get bigger images (£15 12 months) but I think it is worth it.

http://aerial.rcahms.gov.uk/worldwide/

ENJOY

[Gromit]

Sweet link there Vark- thanks. I already have a coffee table sized book on Normandy homes and land, mostly color pics.

[ng cavscout]

Forestry Grogs?

[stikkypixie]

Forestry Grogs?

Forestry Gumps.

[umlaut]

What you're thinking of would be mostly pines I think; fast-growing, hardy and tolerant of thin rocky (post-Ice Age) soils. As I mentioned a while back, the dense pine forests (taiga) that dominate the northern half of the Eurasian (and North American) landmass begin in earnest east of the Meuse (the Ardennes and Vosges). Large pine belts certainly do exist in the central massifs of France and down around Bordeaux, but in Normandy the dominant native forest is deciduous white oak.

This image was taken from a road. Once you get into the woods, visibility improves some (second image). But all the same I wouldn't fancy maneuvering a Sherman through there.

Well the forests on these pictures look exactly like the forests we have in Denmark. No wonder our ancestors felt so much at home there that they decided to settle and give Normandy its name.

The danish forests are mainly beech, though. Are you sure these aren´t too?

[futon river crossing]

You won't get much understory with Pines and the like - they shut out the light and the needles make the soil acidic IIRC.

[Peregrine]

You won't get much understory with Pines and the like - they shut out the light and the needles make the soil acidic IIRC.

Would soil acidity make uniforms fade? Is this modelled if you leave guys lying prone in one spot for too long.

[GhostRider3/3]

Thanks everyone for the Forestry lessons and the beautiful Link to the Aerial photographs.. (Notes taken) Ahh can we have more AAR now please.. Im dying to see more Shermans, and Panzers taken it to each other.... and I would really like to see the Paratroopers dodge HE and MG rounds... LOL.

Frankly Im drooling soo much, I cant wait for my copy, so I went back and started watching all my DVD's of "A World at War"...again...

[Vencini]

Can the vehicles obstruct the line of vision?

Can infantry take shelter behind the vehicles?

Can you shoot through a friend or enemy vehicles?

Thanks

[Vark]

To echo GhostRider could we have another AAR but could we have an all infantry AAR next, armoured vehicles are all very nice but they blunder around and dominate AAR's. This AAR has been fascinating, as it is showing how tanks fight but could we please have a similarly intense encounter that shows how infantry battle it out.

Perhaps a scattered airborne company trying to get to an RV and clashing with hasty blocking units, perhaps even a night battle, hint, hint. If we have armour make it a couple of halftracks, so we can see how infantry fight from them and how vulnerable they are. Or perhaps a Squad Leader scenario upgraded, small pockets of soldiers taking on a AA position, and please can we have a You Tube video? I watched a fascinating infantry platoon operation for SF, AAR's are great but seeing is believing and a small clip would do wonders for sales, hint, hint.

[Battlefront.com]

The AAR between Elvis and JonS was mostly infantry. Vehicles played only a supporting role in that one. So we thought it would be good to get some tank on tank AAR action for you guys, which is why you have what you have

Steve

[StellarRat]

You'd never get a tank through an old Oregon forest. They are nearly impassible even on foot plus they are usually hilly or in the mountains and lots of steams.

[stikkypixie]

Can the vehicles obstruct the line of vision?

Can infantry take shelter behind the vehicles?

Can you shoot through a friend or enemy vehicles?

Thanks

Vehicles don't obstruct LOS (in CMSF at least)

Vehicles do stop incoming rounds

I'm not sure whether you can shoot through friendly vehicles, but you don't shoot through enemy vehicles. I had an instance once, where the round of my tank was stopped by a tank that was not spotted.

[Erik Springelkamp]

Vehicles don't obstruct LOS (in CMSF at least)

Vehicles do stop incoming rounds

I'm not sure whether you can shoot through friendly vehicles, but you don't shoot through enemy vehicles. I had an instance once, where the round of my tank was stopped by a tank that was not spotted.

Well, you can shoot through enemy vehicles, recently I had two BMP's destroyed by one enemy tank shot, as they were standing side by side, and the grenade went right through the first BMP into the other.

[RogCBrand]

You'd never get a tank through an old Oregon forest. They are nearly impassible even on foot plus they are usually hilly or in the mountains and lots of steams.

That's for sure! I'm from Oregon and I always thought about how they were worried the Japanese would invade, just after Pearl Harbor, but they'd have had a rough time trying to make it through the Coast Range then the Cascades!

[Barkhorn1x]

Is this an AAR or a meeting of the National Forestry Association?

[RogCBrand]

It is an interesting diversion- we're all used to what a "forest" is in our area, but often don't know what's typical in another- and I definitely find myself thinking of something different than what would be in various parts of Europe!

[zukkov]

Is this an AAR or a meeting of the National Forestry Association?

actually i think it's a little of everything. make that a lot of everything...

[Michael Emrys]

That's for sure! I'm from Oregon and I always thought about how they were worried the Japanese would invade, just after Pearl Harbor, but they'd have had a rough time trying to make it through the Coast Range then the Cascades!

Actually, the forest in your pic would be easy for men on foot to move through compared to some of the denser jungle encountered in the Solomons and Burma. Where it's really bad in the PNW is where it has been clearcut without clearing the debris and then allowed to regrow for 20-30 years. You'd have to hack your way through that with a chainsaw.

I lived in the Santa Cruz Mountains of CA, part of the Coastal Range, where it was a mix of open but hilly meadows and woods. It was a lot like I imagine the Ardennes to be. Men on foot could cross it with some effort, but off-road movement would be difficult in places even for tracked vehicles and for wheeled vehicles almost impossible. The roads have innumerable choke points where a well-armed platoon could easily delay a whole army.

Michael

[Rocky Balboa]

That's for sure! I'm from Oregon and I always thought about how they were worried the Japanese would invade, just after Pearl Harbor, but they'd have had a rough time trying to make it through the Coast Range then the Cascades!

Formidable terrain to be sure but I think hardly more daunting than South Pacific or Indonesian Jungle

[StellarRat]

Actually, the forest in your pic would be easy for men on foot to move through compared to some of the denser jungle encountered in the Solomons and Burma. Where it's really bad in the PNW is where it has been clearcut without clearing the debris and then allowed to regrow for 20-30 years. You'd have to hack your way through that with a chainsaw.

I lived in the Santa Cruz Mountains of CA, part of the Coastal Range, where it was a mix of open but hilly meadows and woods. It was a lot like I imagine the Ardennes to be. Men on foot could cross it with some effort, but off-road movement would be difficult in places even for tracked vehicles and for wheeled vehicles almost impossible. The roads have innumerable choke points where a well-armed platoon could easily delay a whole army.

Michael

Well I wouldn't say it's "easy"....yes you can hike through it. It's not as bad as a real tropical jungle, but you certainly aren't going to get any vehicles through and on foot progress is SLOW. The time of year also makes a lot of difference.

[RogCBrand]

True- and I have to admit, I'd much rather slog through our forest, where there aren't any poisonous bugs and snakes- I think that would have been the thing that would have made me freaked out in the jungles, more than the risk of being shot by the enemy!

[Vark]

True Steve, the Elvis AAR did have infantry action but often as a secondary affair after the armoured brutes had done a bit of equalising. I want a complete infantry affair, small and tense, that shows how they operate unsupported (perhaps some light artillery support). The woodland firefight was great but reflected the confusion of the encounter, and the final assualt was a mopping up operation, though the breaching of the wall was a classic example of showing the flexibility of the system.

I understand these take time, but you could even have a small patrol v's sniper or squad v's halftrack (not the SPR bollocks with the stealth bazooka). Perhaps a video clip, please.

[StellarRat]

True- and I have to admit, I'd much rather slog through our forest, where there aren't any poisonous bugs and snakes- I think that would have been the thing that would have made me freaked out in the jungles, more than the risk of being shot by the enemy!

True. At least you don't have worry about the wildlife. Any that can really hurt you can be seen and shot. However, in the winter hypothermia becomes a distinct possibility. Still better than horrid diseases, continuous unbearable heat and nasty bugs in my book. I lived in Alaska too. The trees are much smaller but the terrain is worse and the woods swarm with millions of mosquitoes and biting flies (in the summer) and thousands of small muddy gooey pits of water filled moss and peat plus nasty thorn bushes of every description. I would say its a toss up with tropical jungle. Been to Honduras too. Nasty super big death ants and incredible heat.

[Wicky]

The Russians managed in the Manchurian '45 campaign to surprise the Japanese by mounting a surprise main attack through the densely forested (larch, birch, aspen, and pine) supposedly impassable Greater Khingan range south of Solun and into the center of Manchuria...