Bulletpoint Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 9 minutes ago, Letter from Prague said: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/11/us/politics/iran-israel-gaza-hamas-us-intelligence.html Early Intelligence Shows Hamas Attack Surprised Iranian Leaders, U.S. Says That is interesting. That kind of goes against "Iran is behind it all" people seem to be taking for granted. Yes, it would surprise me. But because of the paywall I can't read the details of who says that. Could be that the US wants to blame Russia instead, in order to keep focus on Ukraine instead of opening another front against Iran at this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Letter from Prague Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 It is also very possible that Iran taught them what to do and how, and expected assault of ten dudes, not ... whatever this was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warrenpeace Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 1 hour ago, Bulletpoint said: It wouldn't be the first time Israel drove out Palestinians into neighbouring countries where many of them are still stuck in huge refugee camps to this day. Ghazans already live in what has been described as "the world's biggest prison", completely controlled and dominated by Israel. And the Arab countries can do nothing against Israel and they all know that. Israel also knows that, and that is a big part of why they act like they do. I guess you are referring to the original 1948 war, which is when most of the Palestinian refugee's in Gaza were created. I won't argue with you that some (but not all) were "driven out", although the exact reasons that some Arabs left and others stayed is not clear (20% of 1949 Israel was Arab). However, refugees as a result of war is not unusual. Think about the aftermath of WW2. All the German's who lived in East Prussia, the Sudatenland, and parts of Russia were "driven out". For some reason, we don't call the ancestors of these people as refugees. I will also point out, that the there were large numbers (900,000) of Jewish Refugees from Arab countries that were "encouraged" to emmigrate to Isreal, in much the same way that Jews "encouraged" Arabs to leave. I agree that Gaza is a hell whole and no one wants it. As for Israel's Arab neighbors, you seem to think that they actually care about Palestinians. They don't. Jordan still has 680,000 Palestinian's within its borders that are not Jordanian citizens, even though many of them have been living there for three generations. This idea that Israel alone is responsible for the state of Gaza is one-sided. Gazan's have been screwed by Israel, Arab neighbors, and their own government (Hamas). 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 1 hour ago, Bulletpoint said: Yes, it would surprise me. But because of the paywall I can't read the details of who says that. It's all pretty vague, as you would expect. _____ These key Iranian officials did not know the attack was coming, according to the intelligence. The United States, Israel and key regional allies have not found evidence that Iran directly helped plan the attack, according to the U.S. officials and another official in the Middle East. While they would not identify the Iranian officials who expressed surprise at the attack, the U.S. officials said they were people who typically would be aware of operations involving the Quds Force, Iran's paramilitary arm that supports and works with proxy forces. U.S. officials said the intelligence investigation was continuing and could turn up evidence that Iran or other states were directly involved in the Hamas operation. Senior officials said they were keeping an open mind, reviewing old intelligence reports and looking for new information. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seedorf81 Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 Trouble is that AI makes all kinds of disinformation easier and "better". It almost looks as if nobody can be sure anymore about what is really true. Today journalists on tv were questioning if the "40 Israeli babies/children murdered"-news might have been fake-news. One of them (did not seem to be an Israeli-supporter, to say it mildly) yelled that since she saw no evidence, it had to be false information. That is gonna happen with even the most proven truths, some people will trust no nothing no more. Is one of the consequences of this ever growing disinformation that we cannot even rely on dependable sources like the New York times anymore? If so, we're heading for extremely confusing times, because every modern day kid (and every political party, dictator, criminal, psychopath, business-owner, and every other Tom, Dick and Harry) will be able to produce very high-quality disinformation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 (edited) Forum software was fighting me about getting any writing in the post above, sorry Hamas seems convinced achieving the nearly impossible bar of being worse than the Russian army will accomplish. something. I suspect most of the population of Gaza is going to get to ponder that what tHamas achieved was getting them dumped in the Egyptian desert with a leaky tent. Edited October 11, 2023 by dan/california 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seedorf81 Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 5 minutes ago, dan/california said: Imagine here a long list of very angry profanities, swear words, damnations and the lot. People who do this kinda stuff, are pure evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 49 minutes ago, warrenpeace said: However, refugees as a result of war is not unusual. Think about the aftermath of WW2. All the German's who lived in East Prussia, the Sudatenland, and parts of Russia were "driven out". For some reason, we don't call the ancestors of these people as refugees. That's probably because they were driven into the remaining Germany. And Germany continued to exist after the war as a viable and eventually prosperous state. Partly thanks to generous economic help. If the whole of Germany had been taken over by Russians and the remaining Germans had been driven into a small area and then treated like the Palestinians have been, then we would also talk about German refugees today. 54 minutes ago, warrenpeace said: As for Israel's Arab neighbors, you seem to think that they actually care about Palestinians. They don't. If I seem to think so, then I gave the wrong impression. But I was responding to another guy who said that if Israel pushed 2 million Palestinians into Egypt, then they and the rest of the Arab world would attack. I do not believe for a moment that they would. It would just be another huge refugee camp like the others. Not saying it would be a good thing. 1 hour ago, warrenpeace said: This idea that Israel alone is responsible for the state of Gaza is one-sided. Yes, that would be very one-sided. Not sure where that idea came from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warrenpeace Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 Bulletpoint, You are absolutely correct about the Germany welcoming German refugees situation, but my point is the Arab nations of the Middle East never did the same with Arabs from Palestine. The Arabs that lived in Palestine were as much Arabs as East Prussians were German. Remember that Palestine, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq were all essentially National creations after WW1. Boarders were kind of made up by the British. There was no real national identity for any of these places. Instead of welcoming and resettling the refugees, they used them as political pawns. From 1948-1967 Gaza was under Egyption control. Israel wanted to give it back to them as part of the Camp David Accords, but Egypt said no. Egypt definitely does not want 2 million Gazans. That is why I think the only real solution is to eliminate Hamas and then invest a ****load of cash into the strip to create economic prosperity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 7 hours ago, cesmonkey said: Interesting, but not sure why it is relevant to the Israel thread. You didn't listen at the beginning? The Bundeswehr has troops stationed in Lebanon. I admit they discussed this for a few minutes only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 41 minutes ago, warrenpeace said: Egypt definitely does not want 2 million Gazans The question is do they have a choice? 28 minutes ago, chuckdyke said: The Bundeswehr has troops stationed in Lebanon They might want to have real serious discussion about exactly what the mission of troops is now instead of later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splinty Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 (edited) 7 hours ago, warrenpeace said: Israel will invade Gaza and reoccupy for some period of time. Given the number of people killed in the initial Hamas attack, Isreali's will be willing to take the IDF casualties necessary to complete the operation. They will literally go house to house (rubble to rubble) to disarm the entire population. Lots of innocent Gazans will likely die during the operation. The real question is: What comes next? For the last 30 years zero progress has been made to solve the Palestinian Issue. The two-state solution seems to be dead, but no alternative has emerged. But what other choices are there? The only way a one State solution-only way this would work would be to deny Palestinians full citizenship, i.e. make them 2nd class citizens without full rights. Give them some limitied ability to control their own local areas. Sounds like South Africa in the 1980's to me. Won't be viable in long term. How about a three-state solution? Let Gaza be its own state. Sounds wacky, but after this war Gaza will be in ruins and Israel will be able to dictate what type of government it has next. Think Germany or Japan after ww2. Maybe the strategy should be to offer to rebuild Gaza, set up a democratic government with a constitution, and a time frame after which the Isreali's will leave. Sounds crazy, but this is essentially what happenend to Germany and Japan after ww2. Hamas, Hezbollah, and indirectly Iran will never allow that to happen. There are FAR too many fanatics in all those groups leadership, and their ranks to ever let any good solution happen. Until Hamas and Hezbollah are weakened to almost complete ineffectiveness and Iran contained, Gaza will be mired in poverty and terrorism. Edited October 11, 2023 by Splinty Bad grammar 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 2 hours ago, dan/california said: The question is do they have a choice? Probably, at least with regards to the physical aspect. The border with Gaza is just under 8 miles long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paxromana Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 Perhaps bus all the survivors to the West Bank after eliminating Hamas and let the Palestinians there deal with them? I strongly suspect that the West Bank Palestinians don't want the Gazans any more than Egypt does, despite demonstrations/riots in 'solidarity.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, dan/california said: They might want to have real serious discussion about exactly what the mission of troops is now instead of later. Peacekeeping UNIFIL. UNIFIL | United Nations Peacekeeping For fundamentalist Islam this means occupation on Muslim land. Like helping Kuwait against Sadam it was a trigger for Al Qaeda. Any excuse will do with fanatics. Edited October 12, 2023 by chuckdyke 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris talpas Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 17 hours ago, Bulletpoint said: This is kind of the same logic that terrorists use when killing civilians in Europe and USA. Poor choice of words on my part. I am not suggesting they deserve it. Collective punishment is wrong. It’s too bad that moderate voices on both sides were not given power resulting in a two state solution. Alas I fear that dream is farther away than ever. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paxromana Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, chris talpas said: Collective punishment is wrong. Indeed it is. However, blockading a besieged place in time of war is not 'collective punishment' ... And any civilian casualties which result are the legal responsibility of the besieged force ... Hamas in this case ... not of the besieger. Once the Israelis take control if, for example, they decided to blow up the Power Plant, that would be collective punishemnt ... what;s going on now is entirely at the foot of the Hamas fanatics. Edited October 12, 2023 by paxromana 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 Israelis are just going through their master target list for the Gaza strip as fas as they can arm planes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 Well, it was quick... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris talpas Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 (edited) 50 minutes ago, paxromana said: Indeed it is. However, blockading a besieged place in time of war is not 'collective punishment' ... And any civilian casualties which result are the legal responsibility of the besieged force ... Hamas in this case ... not of the besieger. Once the Israelis take control if, for example, they decided to blow up the Power Plant, that would be collective punishemnt ... what;s going on now is entirely at the foot of the Hamas fanatics. Actually from the ICRC website: At the same time, I agree with Israel's right to eliminate HAMAS Edited October 12, 2023 by chris talpas 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 Hamas decided to lose the propaganda war preemptively. They will regret that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paxromana Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 1 hour ago, chris talpas said: Actually from the ICRC website: At the same time, I agree with Israel's right to eliminate HAMAS Well, OK ... the only change is that now the Besieger is obliged to allow them to leave. Presumably also allowed to screen them to ensure that no Hamas terrorists attempt to leave inm disguise as well? So Filtration Camps without the torture and general psychopathy of the Ruzzian version? And if the Hamas psychopaths refuse to let their human shields leave? Israell theoretically would have an obligation to feed said civilians ... except that you can be 100% certain that Hamas would ensure they themselves get the pick of any supplies sent in and damn their own civil population. Rules are all very well when both sides are, even if marginally (like the Ruzzians in Ukraine) 'civilised' ... Hamas isn't, and has nol interest in being so. So the rules actually make the siege tougher for the attacker ... and easier for the terrorists. The Rules weren't written with psychopaths like Hamas in mind. Of course, the non-Hamas populace could rise up and overthrow them ... those who haven't been too busy dancing in the streets to celebrate their murderous rampage, that is. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 13 hours ago, Vanir Ausf B said: It's all pretty vague, as you would expect. _____ These key Iranian officials did not know the attack was coming, according to the intelligence. The United States, Israel and key regional allies have not found evidence that Iran directly helped plan the attack, according to the U.S. officials and another official in the Middle East. While they would not identify the Iranian officials who expressed surprise at the attack, the U.S. officials said they were people who typically would be aware of operations involving the Quds Force, Iran's paramilitary arm that supports and works with proxy forces. U.S. officials said the intelligence investigation was continuing and could turn up evidence that Iran or other states were directly involved in the Hamas operation. Senior officials said they were keeping an open mind, reviewing old intelligence reports and looking for new information. Well, if US intelligence says so.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 4 hours ago, paxromana said: Rules are all very well when both sides are, even if marginally (like the Ruzzians in Ukraine) 'civilised' ... Hamas isn't, and has nol interest in being so. So the rules actually make the siege tougher for the attacker ... and easier for the terrorists. The Rules weren't written with psychopaths like Hamas in mind. I don't think that the people who wrote those rules were under any illusions about human nature. The thing is though - following the rules makes war more difficult for us, but at the same time, it allows us to be the good guys. That's worth a lot in itself. But it also helps rally support. At least in the Western world where we still (generally) believe in higher values and principles. That's also why Hamas is filing and distributing their atrocities. To people in the west, that is repulsive- But to a tribal mind, it's triumph. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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