Israel War Thread

[Lethaface]

26 minutes ago, dan/california said:

But regardless of the details of Hamas atrocities, what they did would be sufficient to start a full scale war at literally any point in human, between any two countries/tribes/entities you care to name. There is nothing to be done now except hammer them so hard most of the other crazies remember the lesson for the best part of a century. That seems to be as long as humaanity is capable of remembering anything.

If it is only hammering while the situation stays the same it is guaranteed to repeat in a dozen years orso. Unfortunately people seem to forget about that until it happens again and again.

[dan/california]

 

Quote

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/what-hamas-wants-israel/675648/

When dissenting Gazans attempted to protest this state of affairs and demanded a better future, they were brutally repressed. Hamas has not held elections since 2006. In 2020, when the Gazan peace activist Rami Aman held a two-hour Zoom call with Israeli leftists, Hamas threw him in prison for six months, tortured him, and forced him to divorce his wife. Why? Because his vision of a shared society for Arabs and Jews, however remote, was a threat to the group’s entire worldview. Jews were not to share the land; they were to be cleansed from it.

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, Lethaface said:

If it is only hammering while the situation stays the same it is guaranteed to repeat in a dozen years orso. Unfortunately people seem to forget about that until it happens again and again.

This is unfortunately true, but read the Atlantic article above if you think there is anyway to start except ripping Hamas out root and branch.

[Lethaface]

Hamas surely isn't going to bring any solution except for more violence. In a way both the extreme sides of the political spectrum in Israel and 'Palestine' need eachother. The only country which can, imo, actually change the situation is Israel. But obviously at the moment they aren't occupied with such changes.

[dan/california]

 

Quote

 

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/defense-news/article-768684

Why has the Gaza ground invasion been delayed since Friday? - analysis

Is Hezbollah waiting to strike until forces are in a Gaza quagmire?

 

The IDF General Staff seem to be aware they cannot afford another blunder.

[cesmonkey]

5 hours ago, Lethaface said:

If it is only hammering while the situation stays the same it is guaranteed to repeat in a dozen years orso. Unfortunately people seem to forget about that until it happens again and again.

Not great, but I've heard Israeli's calling it "mowing the grass".

[dan/california]

 

Quote

 

https://www.economist.com/briefing/2023/10/16/israels-tank-commanders-are-studying-russias-mistakes

 

Like tank generals the world around, he deeply disagrees with those who inferred from Russia’s failures that the day of the tank was over, and cites the events of October 7th as proof. As thousands of fighters were charging into Israel through 29 breaches along the border fence, he argues that at some points, the small number of tanks stationed that morning on the border “were the only remaining layer of protection, and they were using all their weapons, cannon, machineguns and simply running over, to try and stop hundreds of terrorists around them who were trying to get into the communities.” 

 

If Israeli tanks come off badly, the tank is dead dirge is going to get going like it means it. It does sound like they are studying Russias mistakes closely.

[dan/california]

 

Quote

 

https://www.economist.com/briefing/2023/10/12/hamass-atrocities-and-israels-retaliation-will-change-both-sides-for-ever

Hamas may be counting on a relatively cautious assault. The group assumes that Israel will not have the stomach for the high casualties a ground invasion would entail. “We know that they are cowards,” says Moussa Abu Marzouk, a senior Hamas official based in Qatar. “We know that they can’t fight on the ground.” It also expects the presence of more than 100 Israeli and foreign hostages in Gaza will restrain the Israeli forces. Hamas hopes to exchange these prisoners for many, if not all, of the 5,200 Palestinians held in Israeli jails. It has also threatened to kill one each time Israel bombs civilian homes in Gaza “without advance warning”.

 

This is Hamas' fundamental miscalculation, in their own words. Israeli troops have a history of being very casualty averse, because dead soldiers were very bad for the government politically. I think it is quite likely that the initial atrocities that Hamas committed have changed this calculus completely . If and when the ground invasion happens, and there seems to some tiny shred of possibility that Blinken gets some Arab country to take responsibility for the Gaza strip before Israel decides it is ready or some similar diplomatic miracle, the Israeli army's orders are going to be to do this as fast as is militarily possible. Getting back to Hamas' fundamental miscalculation, after decades of terrorism and police actions, they have started a shooting war. That is a very different thing. 

Russias first few months in Ukraine are a case study in assuming you are doing one thing, while simultaneously convincing the people that you are fighting it is the other.

Edited October 17, 2023 by dan/california

[dan/california]

2 hours ago, dan/california said:

Moussa Abu Marzouk, a senior Hamas official based in Qatar.

Also, If I lived within 500meters of this guy, or God forbid in the same building. I would relocate by any means necessary. I don't think he is a safe person to be round ,now, or ever again. The risk of anything from his cell phone exploding to a skyscraper falling on him seem rather high.

[BornGinger]

16 hours ago, Lethaface said:

In a way both the extreme sides of the political spectrum in Israel and 'Palestine' need eachother.

With all the mixing of people and moving people around by the Babylonians, Persians and maybe other rulers over that area, those living in what used to be called Palestine before 1948, and maybe even after, should admit that they are the same people. Both the jews and the muslims in what used to be called Palestine have the "hook nose" and "full lips" that in the '30s and '40s was told to be typical jewish.

It would be better if Great Britain (UK) took "Palestine" back under their control and divided it up so the sionist nazi jews could live in the south (or north), the palestine jew hating muslims in the north (or south) and the ones who want to live in peace, love and understanding with each other could live in the central part.

Problem solved.

Edited October 17, 2023 by BornGinger

[MOS:96B2P]

We know that they are cowards,” says Moussa Abu Marzouk, a senior Hamas official based in Qatar. 

Says the guy hiding in Qatar. 

After this latest Hamas terrorist activity he may need to hide in a cave in Afghanistan somewhere. That would be a lifestyle change for him.

 

[Vanir Ausf B]

 

[dan/california]

10 minutes ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

 

So the Palestinian cause and people are everything, unless WE have to do something....

[Vanir Ausf B]

2 minutes ago, dan/california said:

So the Palestinian cause and people are everything, unless WE have to do something....

More or less.

_______

 “We are making sure that aid, whether medical or humanitarian, at this difficult time, makes it to the strip,” Sisi said, adding that “we sympathize.”

But he warned that Egypt’s ability to help has limits.

“Of course we sympathize. But be careful, while we sympathize, we must always be using our minds in order to reach peace and safety in a manner that doesn’t cost us much,” he said, adding that Egypt hosts 9 million migrants already. The largest groups in the country’s migrant population are from Sudan, Syria, Yemen and Libya, according to a 2022 report by the UN’s International Organization for Migration.

________

Jordanian King Abdullah II:

“This is a situation that has to be handled within Gaza and the West Bank,” he said in a meeting with the German chancellor, The Associated Press reported. “And you don’t have to carry this out on the shoulders of others.”

_______

Egypt’s message to western diplomats has been clear: it will deliver aid into Gaza but will resist any push for it to accept large numbers of Palestinians. Sameh Shoukry, Egypt’s foreign minister, on Monday warned that “forced displacement” was no solution to the Palestinian crisis.

In more stark language, a senior Egyptian official told a European counterpart: “You want us to take 1mn people? Well, I am going to send them to Europe. You care about human rights so much — well you take them.”

“The Egyptians are really, really angry” at the pressure on them to take refugees, the European official said, recalling the conversation.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/13/middleeast/egypt-rafah-crossing-gaza-palestinians-mime-intl/index.html

https://thehill.com/policy/international/4259879-jordan-egypt-unwilling-to-take-palestinian-refugees/

https://www.ft.com/content/feab5a29-a10a-4d6c-9035-ece2546c12a3

 

 

[dan/california]

2 hours ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

More or less.

_______

 “We are making sure that aid, whether medical or humanitarian, at this difficult time, makes it to the strip,” Sisi said, adding that “we sympathize.”

But he warned that Egypt’s ability to help has limits.

“Of course we sympathize. But be careful, while we sympathize, we must always be using our minds in order to reach peace and safety in a manner that doesn’t cost us much,” he said, adding that Egypt hosts 9 million migrants already. The largest groups in the country’s migrant population are from Sudan, Syria, Yemen and Libya, according to a 2022 report by the UN’s International Organization for Migration.

________

Jordanian King Abdullah II:

“This is a situation that has to be handled within Gaza and the West Bank,” he said in a meeting with the German chancellor, The Associated Press reported. “And you don’t have to carry this out on the shoulders of others.”

_______

Egypt’s message to western diplomats has been clear: it will deliver aid into Gaza but will resist any push for it to accept large numbers of Palestinians. Sameh Shoukry, Egypt’s foreign minister, on Monday warned that “forced displacement” was no solution to the Palestinian crisis.

In more stark language, a senior Egyptian official told a European counterpart: “You want us to take 1mn people? Well, I am going to send them to Europe. You care about human rights so much — well you take them.”

“The Egyptians are really, really angry” at the pressure on them to take refugees, the European official said, recalling the conversation.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/13/middleeast/egypt-rafah-crossing-gaza-palestinians-mime-intl/index.html

https://thehill.com/policy/international/4259879-jordan-egypt-unwilling-to-take-palestinian-refugees/

https://www.ft.com/content/feab5a29-a10a-4d6c-9035-ece2546c12a3

 

 

The Egyptian government depends entirely on the the people who pay its bills, its grain import bill most of all. Those people have not been Egyptian for a very long time. At the moment the Egyptian government is a solely own subsidiary of the Saudi's with minority shares held by various other Gulf monarchies. Why anybody is bothering to talk to the Egyptians themselves is a mystery to me.

[acrashb]

On 10/14/2023 at 9:50 PM, sburke said:

yeah they are, but this isn't like this came out of the blue. 

I don't disagree that Israel, particularly in the past, has engaged in actions that we, today and then, look at askance.  Much of it through their proxies in Lebanon, as you noted.  So it's possible to say that the Palestinians have a legitimate, provoked cause - I don't, but it is not an entirely unreasonable position.

Having said that: Hamas put its headquarters under the Al-Shifa hospital; inculcates hatred of Jews in the Gazan population from a very early age, including in formal grade schooling and children's television shows; and literally worships death both in its charter ( e.g., death for the sake of Allah "is the loftiest of its wishes", Article 8 ) and its leadership's ongoing statements.

Now Hamas has deliberately committed large-scale atrocities: torture, rape and murder of now about 1400 people; kidnapping and hostage-holding of even (or especially!) babies and toddlers; murder and bodily desecration of babies.  And all deliberate, not an unfortunate side-effect of achieving military objectives.

Some say that Israel also does atrocities.  To conflate Israel's current behaviours with the above is to devalue the meaning of the above, which is abhorrent.  For example, Israel announces attacks in advance to encourage civilians to leave the area; Hamas encourages/forces said civilians to stay, using them as ammunition in the info war.

If the US lost as many people, proportionally, to torture, rape and murder, it would be about 52000.  If Mexican government forces crossed the border and tortured, raped and murdered the entire population of, say, Calexico, what would the United States do?  We know what they did when 2,977 were killed.

Let's sum it up with a Lord of the Rings analogy.  It's factual to say "Mordor is savage and evil, but Gondor has its problems."  Yes, Gondor is imperfect, sometimes significantly so.  But the worst of it can be fixed by the best of it, unlike Mordor.  

While I would not stretch that analogy too far, this is a good time for moral clarity, to pick a side. Then, when the dust has settled, make Gondor better.

With some luck, Hamas will be extirpated, Palestinians will have a chance at better government and culture, and in a few generations this will be in the past.

On 10/14/2023 at 9:50 PM, sburke said:

If there is a hell I expect it looks a lot like this area.

Absolutely.

Edited October 17, 2023 by acrashb

[Lethaface]

2 minutes ago, dan/california said:

The Egyptian government depends entirely on the the people who pay its bills, its grain import bill most of all. Those people have not been Egyptian for a very long time. At the moment the Egyptian government is a solely own subsidiary of the Saudi's with minority shares held by various other Gulf monarchies. Why anybody is bothering to talk to the Egyptians themselves is a mystery to me.

So stop giving Sisi millions per year in (military) aid. He is a dictator, like Mubarak was before him. So is MBS / S. Arabia and all the other Arabian regimes where we are happy to do business with. Egypt is dirtpoor, why do we expect them to fix Israels problem? We also don't want more refugees. Lebanon has MANY Syrian refugees and is also dirtpoor. 

I understand their position, even if they are dictators. The west is rather hypocrite when it comes to the middle east. If they, one day, realize the power they hold and start caring about people they can use their influence over oil. But that will cost the rich autocracy money, and us.

PS All governments depend entirely on the people who pay their bills.

[BornGinger]

I just watched CBS News on YouTube. So far 15 journalists have been killed in Gaza. It's a feather in the hat for sionist nazi Israel to be among the states that has killed most journalists.

Israel tells people in north Gaza to go south just to do airstrikes in a residential area in the south. How many innocent Palestinians have been murdered by Israel now? Is it 3000 or more?

But that's ok. Sionist jews only have to start talking about the myth of six million dead jews in WW2 and their latest murdering rampage is going to be forgiven by UN and USA.

[Vanir Ausf B]

15 minutes ago, dan/california said:

Why anybody is bothering to talk to the Egyptians themselves is a mystery to me.

I mean... it's the Egyptian army that controls the border crossing.

[Seedorf81]

This late afternoon: Israel airstrike hits hospital area with loads of refugees. Slaughterhouse, also young kids, already 200-300 deaths, possible more trapped under rubble.

Whether Hamas was under this hospital or not, this number of deaths doesn't justify that.

O most recent update, deathtoll already 500 deaths.

And these deaths are by far not the last in this endless conflict. You can expect that Israel and "the West" are going to have to deal with suicide-bombers, lone wolf shootings, knife-attacks and the lot.

And the most terrible thing is that most of those Hamas-****ers are in more or less safe places..

[Lethaface]

18 minutes ago, Seedorf81 said:

This late afternoon: Israel airstrike hits hospital area with loads of refugees. Slaughterhouse, also young kids, already 200-300 deaths, possible more trapped under rubble.

Whether Hamas was under this hospital or not, this number of deaths doesn't justify that.

O most recent update, deathtoll already 500 deaths.

And these deaths are by far not the last in this endless conflict. You can expect that Israel and "the West" are going to have to deal with suicide-bombers, lone wolf shootings, knife-attacks and the lot.

And the most terrible thing is that most of those Hamas-****ers are in more or less safe places..

People who order the bombing of a hospital deserve the same faith as the Hamas leaders who order slaughter of innocents or Russians who order hospital bombings. They don't deserve drawing breath imo.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Lethaface

[Redwolf]

46 minutes ago, Seedorf81 said:

This late afternoon: Israel airstrike hits hospital area with loads of refugees. Slaughterhouse, also young kids, already 200-300 deaths, possible more trapped under rubble.

Whether Hamas was under this hospital or not, this number of deaths doesn't justify that.

O most recent update, deathtoll already 500 deaths.

And these deaths are by far not the last in this endless conflict. You can expect that Israel and "the West" are going to have to deal with suicide-bombers, lone wolf shootings, knife-attacks and the lot.

And the most terrible thing is that most of those Hamas-****ers are in more or less safe places..

You have one of those link thingies for that?

[Seedorf81]

7 minutes ago, Redwolf said:

You have one of those link thingies for that?

It was/is live on al Jazeera. While zapping,  sudden live horrorshow, uncensored.

https://www.aljazeera.com/

Edited October 17, 2023 by Seedorf81
link

[Lethaface]

6 minutes ago, Redwolf said:

You have one of those link thingies for that?

https://nos.nl/artikel/2494450-aanval-op-ziekenhuis-waar-gazanen-schuilden-autoriteiten-spreken-van-honderden-doden

There is now many speculation and misinformation, probably both sides will blame each other whatever the reality is. Let's see.

[Seedorf81]

I know for a fact that, before the Hamas-attack at least, the Israeli's usually tried to minimize civilian casualties.

By using stuff like this https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/blu-129.htm ,

so either they do not care about civilians anymore, or they hit hidden ammo-storage, or something else happened.

But airstrike seems pretty certain, so far.

[Lethaface]

30 minutes ago, Seedorf81 said:

I know for a fact that, before the Hamas-attack at least, the Israeli's usually tried to minimize civilian casualties.

By using stuff like this https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/blu-129.htm ,

so either they do not care about civilians anymore, or they hit hidden ammo-storage, or something else happened.

But airstrike seems pretty certain, so far.

The explosion doesn't look like an ammo storage hit. In that case the whole hospital would have been gone.