Israel War Thread

[Lethaface]

3 minutes ago, warrenpeace said:

"People driven out of those area's were a direct consequence of the war and Germany's behavior".    One might argue the same thing happened in Palestine.  The Jews accepted the UN resolution, the Arabs did not.

"The United Nations resolution sparked conflict between Jewish and Arab groups within Palestine. Fighting began with attacks by irregular bands of Palestinian Arabs attached to local units of the Arab Liberation Army composed of volunteers from Palestine and neighboring Arab countries. These groups launched their attacks against Jewish cities, settlements, and armed forces. The Jewish forces were composed of the Haganah, the underground militia of the Jewish community in Palestine, and two small irregular groups, the Irgun, and LEHI. The goal of the Arabs was initially to block the Partition Resolution and to prevent the establishment of the Jewish state. The Jews, on the other hand, hoped to gain control over the territory allotted to them under the Partition Plan.

After Israel declared its independence on May 14, 1948, the fighting intensified with other Arab forces joining the Palestinian Arabs in attacking territory in the former Palestinian mandate. On the eve of May 14, the Arabs launched an air attack on Tel Aviv, which the Israelis resisted. This action was followed by the invasion of the former Palestinian mandate by Arab armies from Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Egypt. Saudi Arabia sent a formation that fought under the Egyptian command. British trained forces from Transjordan eventually intervened in the conflict, but only in areas that had been designated as part of the Arab state under the United Nations Partition Plan and the corpus separatum of Jerusalem. After tense early fighting, Israeli forces, now under joint command, were able to gain the offensive."  

MMM you know how the UN views the current occupation? 

Also, you are quoting but don't post the source. You are also missing out the ethical cleansing of groups like stern. Still my point was that the people living in the area which were driven out from their homes didn't do anything to deserve that. 

At the same time I think it is better to keep this thread about the current war.

[ALBY]

2 hours ago, Lethaface said:

And just a reminder for everyone, how do we think about Russia levelling a building complex full of people in which there might be some Ukrainian soldiers? Or Russia attacking the power supply / heating of Ukraine?

If it comes to the rules of war, there shouldn't be differences between how we apply them to various actors in different wars.

Howdy friend.

Your analogy is flawed.  Russia is an aggressor. Israel is not. Israel is besieging a military target that is firing rockets and hiding an army.  Whether the Gazans are human shields or not is on Hamas.   The entirety of Gaza is a weapons free zone for targeting and it will all be legal.  

Hamas broke every rule of war in their attack.  They must all die  

We all feel bad when we have to shoot a rabid dog. But obviously, Israel cannot be expected to live next to baby murderers. War is hell, But it’s much worse if you lose.  We’ve seen this movie before. Don’t awaken your giant of an enemy and fill them with a terrible resolve.

Delenda est Carthago. 
 

Edited October 12, 2023 by ALBY

[Lethaface]

57 minutes ago, ALBY said:

Howdy friend.

Your analogy is flawed.  Russia is an aggressor. Israel is not. Israel is besieging a military target that is firing rockets and hiding an army.  Whether the Gazans are human shields or not is on Hamas.   The entirety of Gaza is a weapons free zone for targeting and it will all be legal.  

Hamas broke every rule of war in their attack.  They must all die  

We all feel bad when we have to shoot a rabid dog. But obviously, Israel cannot be expected to live next to baby murderers. War is hell, But it’s much worse if you lose.  We’ve seen this movie before. Don’t awaken your giant of an enemy and fill them with a terrible resolve.

Delenda est Carthago. 
 

Ok good to know you support laws of war only for agressors and don't care about innocent lives of 'human shield'. You are calling for genocide?

Gazans have babies too you know,  if you see them as humans that is. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Lethaface

[Letter from Prague]

13 minutes ago, Lethaface said:

Gazans have babies too you know,  if you see them as humans that is. 

He obviously doesn't, given the "rabid dog".

[chuckdyke]

Gaza is not sustainable and nobody wants it. Egypt was offered the place during the Camp David accord. Yes it will be occupied by Israel whether they like it or not. It will come with responsibilities.

[cesmonkey]

A bit of a confusing video. I'm sure it would help if I understood Hebrew.
 

Quote

The Flotilla 13 elite unit was deployed to the area surrounding the Gaza security fence in a joint effort to regain control of the Sufa military post on October 7th. 

The soldiers rescued around 250 hostages alive. 

60+ Hamas terrorists were neutralized and 26 were apprehended—including Muhammad Abu A'ali the Deputy Commander of the Hamas southern Naval Division.

 

[dan/california]

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/chinatalk/id1289062927?i=1000631161341

Yes it seems like a weird link, but the guy who does China talk has relatives in Israel. This is just a cut and paste of a well known Israeli podcast. Three more or less prominent Israeli journalist talking about what happened. I am not sure who is more bleeped the Netanyahu government or the Palestinians. 

[Carolus]

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-airstrikes-cabinet-beb1fa2b9e4ede6cf4568dd6c86ff11a

 

Israel has apparently called for an evacuation order for the civilian population of northern Gaza, to leave the area within the next 24 hours.

[Bulletpoint]

So, they say they should evacuate northern Ghaza. Where to? Southern Ghaza I guess. Doubling the population of an area that is already one of the most densely populated places in the world.

Maybe the plan is to create such a bad humanitarian situation for the Palestinians that Egypt will be under immense political pressure to open the border and take them in and help them "temporarily". Which will then turn into forever.

[Ultradave]

4 hours ago, Carolus said:

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-airstrikes-cabinet-beb1fa2b9e4ede6cf4568dd6c86ff11a

 

Israel has apparently called for an evacuation order for the civilian population of northern Gaza, to leave the area within the next 24 hours.

Doubling the population of the southern half of Gaza while Israel removes Hamas from the north, possibly followed in a couple weeks? by an evacuation order for the southern half of Gaza so they can remove Hamas from the souther half. So all 2 million people then displace back to the north? To Egypt? Build rafts? 

On top of the blockade, this has the makings of a humanitarian catastrophe.

Dave

[dan/california]

2 hours ago, Ultradave said:

Doubling the population of the southern half of Gaza while Israel removes Hamas from the north, possibly followed in a couple weeks? by an evacuation order for the southern half of Gaza so they can remove Hamas from the souther half. So all 2 million people then displace back to the north? To Egypt? Build rafts? 

On top of the blockade, this has the makings of a humanitarian catastrophe.

Dave

The following is purely a guess about what is going to happen, not a judgement on it. I think Israel is going to invade the the northern half of Gaza, and then stop. they probably won't let any Palestinians that flee back in.That will push the Misery in the Southern half high enough that the Israeli government can say the Palestinians have been truly punished. It will massively increase pressure on Egypt to let Palestinian civilians in, and shorten the the lines Israel has to guard by close to half. That will reduce the amount of forces they need in the south, and most of the army goes back north to glare at Hezbollah. 

[Bulletpoint]

11 minutes ago, dan/california said:

The following is purely a guess about what is going to happen, not a judgement on it. I think Israel is going to invade the the northern half of Gaza, and then stop. they probably won't let any Palestinians that flee back in.That will push the Misery in the Southern half high enough that the Israeli government can say the Palestinians have been truly punished. It will massively increase pressure on Egypt to let Palestinian civilians in, and shorten the the lines Israel has to guard by close to half. That will reduce the amount of forces they need in the south, and most of the army goes back north to glare at Hezbollah. 

And then suddenly, another completely unexpected terror attack on Israel, this time from the West Bank...

[dan/california]

13 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

And then suddenly, another completely unexpected terror attack on Israel, this time from the West Bank...

Maybe in a year or a decade, the disaster that just happened was a conceptual failure on the Israelis part. They assumed that Gaza was handled, and even the military could pretty much take Yom Kippur off. It is going to be a while before that happens again. Barring a WMD there are going to be enough people manning defences to prevent more than one or two people from getting thru anytime soon. Shoot first and and ask questions probably never is in full effect. There are significant long term costs to this, but it is certainly the new normal in the short term. 

I mean they spotted one guy trying to swim around towards Israel from Gaza, and depth charged him into  goo...

Right now it all comes down to does Hezbollah want to get Lebanon wrecked again.

Edited October 13, 2023 by dan/california

[Astrophel]

Reported here in Netherlands today is Putin's offer to mediate a cease fire to put an end to the bloodshed.

I cannot help feeling that Israel is dancing to a script written by the enemies of Israel and the West.  Should Israel really invade Gaza in a few hours time they will lose a lot of friends, also in the West.  Right now Israel has killed approximately the same number of innocents as Hamas and so in many minds the score is even.  Invade and it is Israel who will be blamed in the West, the Middle East and much of the rest of the world will be blaming Israel more.  We expect better from Israel because they are part of the West.

Earlier this week I noted in passing that russia failed to rejoin the UN Human Rights Organisation - apparently only 85 nations were prepared to back russia.  85!!!  Russia is making progress under water and it is not by accident.  Russia is putting a lot of effort into rehabilitating their international reputation and they are making progress.

This latest ploy in the Middle East is calculated to win friends and influence.  

Israel's reaction is totally predictable.  And most likely it was predicted by whoever decided to go into Israel and behead babies.  I cannot think of many nations capable of this degree of nihilistic cynicism but russia is definitely on the list.  They will have covered their tracks, but reports also indicate that even Hamas people are shocked by what was done in their name.

If there was ever a time for cool heads it is now.  Israel needs to take a step back and open their ears rather than their mouths.  Every time one of their "diplomats" speaks in Europe now they succeed only to fragment and reduce their support.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Astrophel
clarity

[Lethaface]

3 hours ago, Ultradave said:

Doubling the population of the southern half of Gaza while Israel removes Hamas from the north, possibly followed in a couple weeks? by an evacuation order for the southern half of Gaza so they can remove Hamas from the souther half. So all 2 million people then displace back to the north? To Egypt? Build rafts? 

On top of the blockade, this has the makings of a humanitarian catastrophe.

Dave

Indeed, apart from the logistical challenges of moving such a mass of people in such a short time without (probably) sufficient electricity/fuel/water/food/medicine there are many people in hospitals who would have issues moving even in a fully functioning western country. 

Plus Hamas will probably hinder the movement as they (also) don't care about Palestinian lives

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Lethaface

[Astrophel]

36 minutes ago, Lethaface said:

Indeed, apart from the logistical challenges of moving such a mass of people in such a short time without (probably) sufficient electricity/fuel/water/food/medicine there are many people in hospitals who would have issues moving even in a fully functioning western country. 

Plus Hamas will probably hinder the movement as they (also) don't care about Palestinian lives

 

Hamas are allowing full access to journalists, israel is not bombing hospitals, and so every wounded child and traumatised medic is making instant headlines around the world.  Probably only a matter of time before a hospital explodes and Israel gets the blame.  I never thought Israel would be on the wrong foot so often.

[Lethaface]

46 minutes ago, Astrophel said:

Hamas are allowing full access to journalists, israel is not bombing hospitals, and so every wounded child and traumatised medic is making instant headlines around the world.  Probably only a matter of time before a hospital explodes and Israel gets the blame.  I never thought Israel would be on the wrong foot so often.

I have no qualms about Hamas they will probably fight from hospitals. Anyway personally I was no fan (understatement) of the Israeli regime because of their conduct, but indeed they don't bomb hospital intentionally afaik. 

The matter was more how to move people from a hospital given the order to move out or North Gaza.

I just read reports about Israel in conclave with USA and UN regarding safe zones so hopefully that will allow civilians a way out of the destruction.

[dan/california]

14 minutes ago, Lethaface said:

just read reports about Israel in conclave with USA and UN regarding safe zones so hopefully that will allow civilians a way out of the destruction.

And Hamas will promptly fire rockets from the middle of them. 

[Astrophel]

18 minutes ago, Lethaface said:

I have no qualms about Hamas they will probably fight from hospitals. Anyway personally I was no fan (understatement) of the Israeli regime because of their conduct, but indeed they don't bomb hospital intentionally afaik. 

The matter was more how to move people from a hospital given the order to move out or North Gaza.

I just read reports about Israel in conclave with USA and UN regarding safe zones so hopefully that will allow civilians a way out of the destruction.

Agree.  Evacuating people within 24 hours is an impossibility.  The world is rightly challenging the moral compass of those insisting on it.

[Splinty]

Hamas is full of fanatics. No matter what concessions Israel or the West attempts to give them will only allow them to regroup and try all over again. Israel MUST render them completely ineffective in order to put this to rest for at least another decade.

 

[warrenpeace]

22 hours ago, Lethaface said:

MMM you know how the UN views the current occupation? 

Also, you are quoting but don't post the source. You are also missing out the ethical cleansing of groups like stern. Still my point was that the people living in the area which were driven out from their homes didn't do anything to deserve that. 

At the same time I think it is better to keep this thread about the current war.

The quote came from the US State Department Historian:  https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/arab-israeli-war

The Stern Gang and Irgun did some really bad things.  However, there are plenty of examples of Arabs killing Jews proceeding the advent of those organizations.  For a fairly complete list see:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine

As you can see the first Jewish attack did not occur until 1937.

 

[cesmonkey]

There is a video being shared on telegram and twitter of an alleged Israeli attack on a Hamas underground rocket storage facility using a bunker buster bomb.  Who knows how accurate this is, but it makes for a very interesting video:
 

 

[paxromana]

4 hours ago, dan/california said:

And Hamas will promptly fire rockets from the middle of them. 

NAtions tried to work out a way of having Safe Zones from air attack between WW1 and WW2 to add to Hague and Geneva. They spent a *lot* of time and effort on the problem ... and no matter what they came up with they realised that it could be so easily gamed that trying to solve the problem was pointless.

Against psychopathic terrorists like Hamas there is no point in even trying.

Indeed, even expecting Israel to not attack targets because they'd cause 'excessive' civilian casualties when Hamas deliberately sets up their positions to make that impossible to avoid is pure insanity on the part of know nothing bleeding hearts (left and right wing, politically).

[MHW]

Glimpses of the early hours of the Hamas attack and the IDF response, in the New York Times. The attackers had planned carefully, which should be apparent. More surprisingly, IDF bases seem to have put little effort into local security, and the counterattack contained many serving soldiers, veterans, and volunteers self-dispatching to the south.

Hamas terrorists storm what the Times calls an “intelligence hub” (sounds like a communications site or fusion center) ten miles from the border:

Ten miles later, they veered off the road into a stretch of woodland, dismounting outside an unmanned gate to a military base. They blew open the barrier with a small explosive charge, entered the base and paused to take a group selfie. Then they shot dead an unarmed Israeli soldier dressed in a T-shirt.

[…]

Reoriented, they found an unlocked door to a fortified building. Once inside, they entered a room filled with computers — the military intelligence hub. Under a bed in the room, they found two soldiers taking shelter.

The gunmen shot both dead.

Brig. Gen. Dan Goldfus hears about the attacks in the south, returns to his base, grabs a weapon and two soldiers, and self-dispatches himself into the fight. It may be that the Times reporter didn’t bother asking this question, but there is no indication that the general tried to mobilize his command. A USMC news release gives BG Goldfus’s position as Chief of Paratroopers and Infantry Corps, which sounds to my ear like a branch chief or doctrine/training position.

General Goldfus, 46, a paratrooper commander, had been on leave at home, jogging in his neighborhood north of Tel Aviv. Then he saw a video from the south, showing terrorists cruising through a city, entirely unimpeded.

Without waiting for orders, the general said he ran home, changed into his uniform and headed south.

He picked up guns and two soldiers from his base in central Israel, and called friends and colleagues to find out what was happening.

Only a few picked up. Of the rest, “There was nobody really understanding the full picture,” General Goldfus said in an interview.

The speed, precision and scale of Hamas’s attack had thrown the Israeli military into disarray, and for many hours afterward civilians were left to fend for themselves. Using the few scraps of information he could glean, General Goldfus said he and the soldiers headed to a village north of Nahal Oz, and then gradually worked their way south.

Goldfus met another senior officer at the front and divided responsibility for local counterattacks.

Near Kibbutz Reim, General Goldfus said he ran into another senior commander by chance. Like him, the officer had rushed to the scene on instinct, without any instructions, and had assembled a small group of soldiers.

There and then, the two men came up with their own ad hoc strategy.

“There’s no orders here,” General Goldfus said. “I said: ‘You take from this place and further south — and I’ll take from this place and further north.’”

 

 

[cesmonkey]

I found this interesting article on Hamas' rocket arsenal from the American Wilson Center think tank. It's a bit dated at 2+ years old but has lots of insights:

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/irans-rockets-palestinian-groups
Iran Transfers Rockets to Palestinian Groups