Annual look at the year to come - 2023

[Sunbather]

It's very curious to me that Matrix/Slitherine have such tremendous problems to bring in an update on Steam in a timely manner. The same issues are prevalent with Command: Modern Operations.

There are numerous examples of games that exist on Steam and an indigenous platform, and yet they always manage to bring out updates, and especially hotfixes, at the same time. And no, this is not because they artifically delay the update on their own platform only to publish it at the same time on Steam. Or else they could not push out hotfixes within a few days or even hours, see for example War Thunder, the late Survarium, all the titles from big companies like Ubisoft. (I will be able to think of more tomorrow). They have their own launcher and their own platform, yet they manage to get the updates to Steam VERY quickly.

Yes, I understand that every file published on Steam has to go through an extra approval process so Steam can check if it is a virus or malware or whatever. And yes, I also know that Slitherine/Matrix are not the same as Ubisoft. But Jesus Christ, when Slitherine/Matrix with their insane price policy that gets more insane by the month can't even manage to get the approval of a 100 MB update (one hundred megabytes!) within a week, one seriously has to ask how sustainable this whole old school wargame business is. The old guard will retire eventually and you can't really convince a 20 year old who grow up with ****ing TikTok to go to an external site to get their hotfix there (which took a year to begin with, and doesn't even contain the hotfixes that were written in the patchnotes...).

[Sunbather]

It is also quite off-putting to see how "the" customer who might already have invested some several hundreds of euro into the CM games is insulted in such a blatant and generalizing manner.

EDIT: Of course, the tone has softened quite a bit since that initial statement that we are all just greedy people who endlessly ask for more gameplay features or technical improvements or both (what disgusting human being asks for technical improvements and content?!) but it is all the more distinct when you see that they actually can talk friendly with the customer. But then it turns again to highly insulting behaviour. I don't know, it all seems kinda schizophrenic. And at the same time it is incessantly stated (not only here but by many wargame devs) that the niche is so small, it isn't feasible at all to implement all those features. Well, if I was new to the CM games and I had a look in a thread like this one, I'd took my money and time and go straight ahead to Micropose or EUGEN Systems or whoever.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Sunbather

[Battlefront.com]

7 hours ago, Sunbather said:

It is also quite off-putting to see how "the" customer who might already have invested some several hundreds of euro into the CM games is insulted in such a blatant and generalizing manner.

Well, I've devoted nearly 25 years of my life to making these games and yet I'm often treated like an enemy that is somehow deliberately withholding what customers should have had yesterday.  I don't know how thoroughly you read this thread, but for sure it is there to see.  And for sure it's been consistently there for all these decades.  It is there on any game forum for any game, even kids games.  So at least I know I'm in good company

7 hours ago, Sunbather said:

EDIT: Of course, the tone has softened quite a bit since that initial statement that we are all just greedy people who endlessly ask for more gameplay features or technical improvements or both (what disgusting human being asks for technical improvements and content?!) but it is all the more distinct when you see that they actually can talk friendly with the customer. But then it turns again to highly insulting behaviour. I don't know, it all seems kinda schizophrenic.

Interesting.  So in your daily life you treat everybody equally, regardless of what sort of respect or politeness they show you?  I highly doubt it and yet you probably aren't schizophrenic.

If you reread this thread, or any thread for that matter, you will see that my posts are tailored to the individual I am responding to.  Case in point is my polite response to your post, even though I don't think your assessment is very fair.

7 hours ago, Sunbather said:

And at the same time it is incessantly stated (not only here but by many wargame devs) that the niche is so small, it isn't feasible at all to implement all those features. Well, if I was new to the CM games and I had a look in a thread like this one, I'd took my money and time and go straight ahead to Micropose or EUGEN Systems or whoever.

I've been lectured almost identically by polite and impolite customers since 1998 when this forum first opened (this is the 2nd iteration as the first one died in a harddrive crash).  I appreciate you being one of the polite ones, but it seems standing up for ourselves in a reasonable way hasn't put us out of business yet, so I'm inclined to just as politely say that I have a different point of view.

BTW, if a customer goes to Microprose or EUGEN and are happy with whatever they buy there, I don't think Combat Mission was likely their cup of tea anyway.  I also doubt those companies "listen" to their customers more than we do.

Steve

[PEB14]

13 hours ago, Sunbather said:

Well, if I was new to the CM games and I had a look in a thread like this one, I'd took my money and time and go straight ahead to Micropose or EUGEN Systems or whoever.

New to CM I am...

As a matter of fact, the tone in this thread is somewhat surprising...

As usual, some people complain about bugs, while most others ask for more content (with diverging demands, obviously).

The former seems obviously justified (who wants to play a bugged game?), and the latter demonstrates that the game is much appreciated as people ask for more...

But to the newcomer it really looks like the relations between Battlefront and at least some of its customers are... tense to say the least!

Enough for a newcomer to flee away? Not in my case, the game is really good!

[Battlefront.com]

2 hours ago, PEB14 said:

New to CM I am...

As a matter of fact, the tone in this thread is somewhat surprising...

As usual, some people complain about bugs, while most others ask for more content (with diverging demands, obviously).

The former seems obviously justified (who wants to play a bugged game?), and the latter demonstrates that the game is much appreciated as people ask for more...

But to the newcomer it really looks like the relations between Battlefront and at least some of its customers are... tense to say the least!

Enough for a newcomer to flee away? Not in my case, the game is really good!

Tense isn't the way I'd describe it, personally.  Annoyed at most.  As with almost every social context out there, the rudest voices rarely represent the majority.  Often they rarely represent a significant minority.

If you want to see "tense" you can take a trip down memory lane and check out the various CMSF (first CM2 release) discussions in 2007-2008.  We had the equivalent of a jihad by a small number of CM1 customers who wanted us to abandon CM2 and return to CM1 right away because CM2 wasn't the game system they wanted.  When we made it clear that wasn't going to happen, and the majority of customers made it known that they liked the new game engine better, the small group of "loyal customers" (seriously, that is what they called themselves) shifted to trying to put us out of business.  How do I know they wanted us to cease to exist?  Because they said so, directly, repeatedly, even after getting banned and coming back under different names (aka "Sock Puppet") to spread misery here.  They even took their campaign of abusive anger to any Forum that didn't ban them for being trolls.  Now that was tense

Steve

[massi9797Dz]

steve does nvidia gpus behave better with combat mission engine in contrast with amd ones or do they behave the same ? 

[PEB14]

16 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

As with almost every social context out there, the rudest voices rarely represent the majority.  Often they rarely represent a significant minority.

We all know that so-called "social media" favor what you call "rudest voices"... No surprise that it happens the same in such a forum.

Which makes me ask myself a question: how do you get a proper feedback of the "silent minority" of your customers?

[Erwin]

38 minutes ago, PEB14 said:

Which makes me ask myself a question: how do you get a proper feedback of the "silent minority" of your customers?

Success of sales would be the obvious feedback.  We have to be conscious that we folks on these forums may not represent the typical customer.  As Steve has pointed out, the fact that BF is still successfully in business when so many other competing sim companies no longer exist, or no longer find it profitable to make the CM genre of combat sims is also "feedback".

[Bulletpoint]

46 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Success of sales would be the obvious feedback.  We have to be conscious that we folks on these forums may not represent the typical customer.  As Steve has pointed out, the fact that BF is still successfully in business when so many other competing sim companies no longer exist, or no longer find it profitable to make the CM genre of combat sims is also "feedback".

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/405-year-old-clam-called-longest-lived-animal

[Centurian52]

On 2/7/2023 at 12:33 PM, Battlefront.com said:

I've learned a long time ago that it is pretty much impossible to communicate how difficult and problematic, as well as imperfect, game development is to someone who hasn't been through it in person.

I've never developed a game. But I've learned some programming (C++ and Java, covering material from basic flow control up through data structures). Even with the relatively small projects I worked on (I think at most my code was in the hundreds, not the thousands, of lines (class projects and hobby/practice projects, never got up to making anything useful)) it seemed there were always bugs to squash. I could never predict when I would solve a particularly tough problem. I would be tempted to add features, which would often be big improvements but which would often require a dozen other changes which would introduce new bugs. I know that time and energy are resources, and that you need to be disciplined about what you focus on and flexible in how long you expect it to take.

So yeah, I get you. That experience is one of the main reasons that I'm not one of the ones demanding new features and updates on short timelines (not that there is any shortage of things I'd like to see (whatever performance improvements you can squeeze out of engine 5 will be highly appreciated)).

[HerrTom]

I think it also doesn't help (IIRC) that BFC only has half a programmer too, since Charles is only part time and I don't think Steve touches the engine side much (correct me if I'm wrong). There are certainly only so many hours in a day!

I'd also like to apologise to Steve et al. I stand by what I said but I certainly wasn't my best last week and I don't stand by how I said it.  You guys certainly don't deserve that tone.

[Battlefront.com]

5 hours ago, massi9797Dz said:

steve does nvidia gpus behave better with combat mission engine in contrast with amd ones or do they behave the same ? 

Our experience with the two card companies is that they go back and forth between being "best".  At some point one might have better support for shadows, another faster rendering of certain types of tasks.  Support, in the form of drivers, also varies over time.

5 hours ago, PEB14 said:

We all know that so-called "social media" favor what you call "rudest voices"... No surprise that it happens the same in such a forum.

Which makes me ask myself a question: how do you get a proper feedback of the "silent minority" of your customers?

Gut instinct + experience + conversations here + what is going on with the larger gaming world.  It's imperfect for sure, but as Erwin pointed out if we were bad at figuring this out we likely wouldn't be in business.

Sometimes we just go with what seems to work best from a technical side and hope that's what people want.  Or at a minimum, it is accepted as "good enough".

2 hours ago, HerrTom said:

I think it also doesn't help (IIRC) that BFC only has half a programmer too, since Charles is only part time and I don't think Steve touches the engine side much (correct me if I'm wrong). There are certainly only so many hours in a day!

Er, if you consider 60-80 hours a week "part time", then you are correct that Charles is only part time   However, I for one consider that workload full time, therefore by my definition Charles is full time.

I do not code, that is correct.  I learned when I was quite young that language is not my strong suit.  There's so much about simulation programming that is heavy on the math and that is definitely not my strong suit!

Design, research, and business stuff is what I spend my time on.

2 hours ago, HerrTom said:

I'd also like to apologise to Steve et al. I stand by what I said but I certainly wasn't my best last week and I don't stand by how I said it.  You guys certainly don't deserve that tone.

No problem.  I thought your tone was out of character for you.  I hope you're having a better week.

Steve

[Sequoia]

Where in the heck did this notion of Charles being part time originate? Do they mean because of the time working the pro version this last year?

[HerrTom]

27 minutes ago, Sequoia said:

Where in the heck did this notion of Charles being part time originate? Do they mean because of the time working the pro version this last year?

Probably. I probably read about someone who read about it somwhere who was told it by their second cousin twice removed or something.   I don't knowingly spread disinformation haha

[Vacillator]

13 minutes ago, HerrTom said:

Probably. I probably read about someone who read about it somwhere who was told it by their second cousin twice removed or something.   I don't knowingly spread disinformation haha

To be fair, there have been quite a few posts saying such things, and if things get said enough, well there must be something behind them right?  Or not, as the case seems to be this time.

Anyway, at the risk of looking like I'm kissing somewhere I shouldn't, I'd like to thank @Battlefront.com for the engagement and front of house plus the rest as described above, and also @Battlefront for the behind the scenes work.  And with that, my kissing is complete .  Let the flames now engulf me.

[Thomm]

Okay, so that question (regarding Charles) has been answered in the meantime.

I found the following data from Steam Charts most interesting.

It is the 30-day average of active players:

• Combat Mission Black Sea: 23.8
• CM Shock Force 2:               23.6
• CM Cold War:                          9.2

These numbers are frighteningly low.

All time peak players for CM:BS was 129. In March 2022, no less.

The way I see it is that the true miracle is that Charles was able to pull off CMx2 in the first place, on his own.
All that followed is really just icing on the cake.

[HerrTom]

Well, now that I think of it, 80 hours is only half of a 168 hour week. For a brain in a jar that seems like part time! I hope he gets extra nutrient packets for his effort though?

[Battlefront.com]

23 minutes ago, Vacillator said:

To be fair, there have been quite a few posts saying such things, and if things get said enough, well there must be something behind them right?  Or not, as the case seems to be this time.

Yeah, I've seen it too.  A long time ago I remember I was a part time worker according to the better informed customers   No idea where that sort of thing comes from, but it almost certainly isn't from people who make complex software for a living.

Steve

[Erwin]

I think it is amazing that BF/Steve are willing to spend so much time responding personally to customers who are making the same points as have been made since the CM games were first released - ie: virtually identical requests/ideas/concepts for the last 20+ years.  

Try getting that kind of customer service response from other established game software developers.  

The discussions are wonderful, but for over a decade I have wondered how many hours has BF spent on responses to essentially identical customer comments that could have been spent on developing more content etc.  

[chuckdyke]

Graphic Camera 1 Good, 2-4 functional see just about the same as on the news. Camera 5-9 like to see replaced by a roadmap and topographic map. Graphics don't need much of an improvement at all.

 

[Artkin]

8 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

Graphic Camera 1 Good, 2-4 functional see just about the same as on the news. Camera 5-9 like to see replaced by a roadmap and topographic map. Graphics don't need much of an improvement at all.

 

Just set your hotkeys a way that works for you. Theres a way to elevate the camera in the hotkeys file, no need to use the numpad with fixed camera locations. 

[chuckdyke]

56 minutes ago, Artkin said:

Theres a way to elevate the camera in the hotkeys file, no need to use the numpad with fixed camera locations. 

There is no Topographic Map or a Road Map I know my hot keys. My suggestion is on a Topographic Map you set cross country way points and on a Road Map the engine would plot travel using roads only. R raises the camera F brings the camera down. You have also 9 camera setting none shows elevation like you see in the scenario editor. I must go there to draw a topo graphic map by painting by numbers in my photo editing program. With campaigns I can't do it.  

[Artkin]

13 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

There is no Topographic Map or a Road Map I know my hot keys. My suggestion is on a Topographic Map you set cross country way points and on a Road Map the engine would plot travel using roads only. R raises the camera F brings the camera down. You have also 9 camera setting none shows elevation like you see in the scenario editor. I must go there to draw a topo graphic map by painting by numbers in my photo editing program. With campaigns I can't do it.  

You can extract campaigns with a tool on these forums. It breaks the campaign into individual scenarios so you can edit or play them individually. I suggest you change your elevation keys to Q and Z, R and F is just plain weird.

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by Artkin

[PEB14]

10 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Gut instinct + experience + conversations here + what is going on with the larger gaming world.  It's imperfect for sure, but as Erwin pointed out if we were bad at figuring this out we likely wouldn't be in business.

 

On 2/1/2023 at 3:48 PM, Battlefront.com said:

The same is true for us.  CMBN crushes all competitors like a King Tiger driving over chocolate cream pie   Last time I looked at the numbers CMSF2 was by far our next best seller.

One thing I can say about Eastern Front is that it maintains a constant stream of sales slightly better than the rest of the lot (excluding above two).  Not necessarily a high level on any particular month, but over years it adds up to significant cumulative sales.

Every time I clarify that Eastern Front is not our most popular topic for CM I feel a need to remind people that I am an Eastern Front grog.  I've come to love working with Modern more day to day than Eastern Front, but my heart is still somewhere in Eastern Europe

Steve

 

Gut instinct: CMBS is quite a good demonstration; I'm surprised it doesn't appear in your "best sales list above.

CMBN success is no real surprise ("experience + what is going on with the larger gaming world").

CMFI WAS a surprise (a good to me, for sure!), as it does not seem to fit inside the popular subjects. Not a classic, like the Eastern Front is.

CMFB looks more to me like resource optimization (clearly less development that any of your other WW2 games as much of the stuff is already available either from CMRT or CMBN...). Far less appealing (to me at least) but low investment (relatively speaking), so it makes sense...

Now I'm wondering what your guts or experience will lead you to develop as a next game...

[kohlenklau]

15 hours ago, Sequoia said:

Where in the heck did this notion of Charles being part time originate?

ORIGIN OF THE PART TIME NOTION:

Not sure about anything anybody else has said but I had it in a post in this thread of harmony and love a few pages back as basically for Steve to please confirm or deny the idea that Charles worked elsewhere at another software company and only was available to Steve/BFC at reduced man-days per year.

Now Steve has fully answered that notion. Steve says that Charles not only gives 1 man-year to BFC but cranks it out and gives almost 1.5-2 man-years of coding effort on a 12 month basis.

I was actually hoping that Steve would say Charles WAS just limited availability. It would explain or justify more in my small brain of why we hear limited development time.

Maybe he is off writing code for exploding turrets and drones dropping 60mm mortar rounds? It took a while to get flamethrowers so maybe he struggles for months or a year to achieve these new features? Is he also the animation guy? I don't think so. I thought that the 3D modelling all or mostly all came from Casio Lima Studios down in Brazil.

The one thing about the constant feud-war-romance between BFC and the forumite customers is that BFC has all the actual sales data of course and knows at a gut level what time and effort a module takes. The Early War crowd has no such central core to approach BFC with a proposal backed by signatures like a petition and indeed can't really have one. BilH had a great pitch AND an awesome angle as a veteran of that Cold War era AND had a team AND did a bunch of legwork AND Steve was in a good mood SO something magical happened for CMCW fans. The funny thing you hear over in that CMCW forum is how it is selling way better than they ever predicted. I can only say that the same low predicted sales but higher actual sales could be true for a CM Early War.

HAVE A GREAT DAY CHARLES! Remember to get up from the keyboard every hour and do some stretches.