So what tanks should the Germans have skipped, and what would have been the positive results?

[Ghost of Charlemagne]

As I understand it the Pz IV was harder and more time-consuming to produce than the Panther, albeit slightly cheaper, and had quite a few reliability issues right up to the end of the war (exacerbated by the increased weight as more armor was added). Of course we have to consider that the Pz. IV was designed in 1936. 

In my opinion, the Germans should have done what their opponents did and focused all their efforts on as few different models as possible. As has already been pointed out the Pz. III chassis proved to be an excellent platform for self-propelled guns and the Panther was a very good vehicle for what it was - although it entered service too late to be able to change to outcome of the war. 

Perhaps a close copy of the T-34 or Sherman would have been the best option. 

[Erwin]

Have to bear in mind that whatever decisions "should" have been made would have had to have been at least 3-5 years earlier when the war requirements would have looked completely different.  

We face the same problem today where we may be producing weapons systems for what was needed 5 years ago.

 

[A Canadian Cat]

This is all very interesting and I do love learning more about cool hardware etc. but in the end I don't think it would have made a huge difference. I have been following the World War 2 YouTube channel. It is a great high level accounting of the timelines and major events. What has been clear for "months" now is that the Germans are going to run out of resources: men, material and fuel. There is just no two ways about it. Their logistics are a mess and they pretty much started out that way.

They never had enough trucks, had too many different kinds of trucks. They never had enough horses. They just did not have logistical support for the armies they did have. Streamlining tank design and production would not have been enough. They needed to solve their fuel shortages, their truck shortages etc and on and on.

A really great example popped up in either this last episode or the one before. After they captured the major oil fields from the Soviets they held them for, I think it was 5 months. The plan was to deny the Soviets oil and use the fields to help alleviate the German fuel shortages. They never got them up to normal production and nearly all of the oil they did produce was consumed by the southern army group so it never helped with the German wide shortage (mind you it didn't drain it further) and the Soviets just expanded production further away and by the time the Germans were being pushed out of the fields they did capture the Soviet oil production was at record highs. Total failure.

So, even if they got cool a new tank design that was better they still would have had to abandon too many of them because they could not supply their armies with enough fuel.

[Glubokii Boy]

26 minutes ago, IanL said:

This is all very interesting and I do love learning more about cool hardware etc. but in the end I don't think it would have made a huge difference. I have been following the World War 2 YouTube channel. It is a great high level accounting of the timelines and major events. What has been clear for "months" now is that the Germans are going to run out of resources: men, material and fuel. There is just no two ways about it. Their logistics are a mess and they pretty much started out that way.

They never had enough trucks, had too many different kinds of trucks. They never had enough horses. They just did not have logistical support for the armies they did have. Streamlining tank design and production would not have been enough. They needed to solve their fuel shortages, their truck shortages etc and on and on.

A really great example popped up in either this last episode or the one before. After they captured the major oil fields from the Soviets they held them for, I think it was 5 months. The plan was to deny the Soviets oil and use the fields to help alleviate the German fuel shortages. They never got them up to normal production and nearly all of the oil they did produce was consumed by the southern army group so it never helped with the German wide shortage (mind you it didn't drain it further) and the Soviets just expanded production further away and by the time the Germans were being pushed out of the fields they did capture the Soviet oil production was at record highs. Total failure.

So, even if they got cool a new tank design that was better they still would have had to abandon too many of them because they could not supply their armies with enough fuel.

I agree with this fully...

Clearly the germans were not ready to take on the russians when they launched Barbarossa. Their logistical capabilities were no where near addaquate. The shortage of motorized infantry would prove disastorous. The limited mobility of the artillery. Lack of this...lack of that...They were not ready !

But what else could they do ? Time was not on their side. Their enemies would only grow stronger and stronger. Ignoring to attack russia would hardly work either. That was exactelly what Stalin wanted. For the germans and western powers to destroy themsself while the russians were uparming at full speed waiting to march west at a suitable time.

They pretty much had to attack russia i belive...and they had to do it NOW ! The time would never be better...

 

 

[Redwolf]

57 minutes ago, IanL said:

This is all very interesting and I do love learning more about cool hardware etc. but in the end I don't think it would have made a huge difference. I have been following the World War 2 YouTube channel. It is a great high level accounting of the timelines and major events. What has been clear for "months" now is that the Germans are going to run out of resources: men, material and fuel. There is just no two ways about it. Their logistics are a mess and they pretty much started out that way.

They never had enough trucks, had too many different kinds of trucks. They never had enough horses. They just did not have logistical support for the armies they did have. Streamlining tank design and production would not have been enough. They needed to solve their fuel shortages, their truck shortages etc and on and on.

A really great example popped up in either this last episode or the one before. After they captured the major oil fields from the Soviets they held them for, I think it was 5 months. The plan was to deny the Soviets oil and use the fields to help alleviate the German fuel shortages. They never got them up to normal production and nearly all of the oil they did produce was consumed by the southern army group so it never helped with the German wide shortage (mind you it didn't drain it further) and the Soviets just expanded production further away and by the time the Germans were being pushed out of the fields they did capture the Soviet oil production was at record highs. Total failure.

So, even if they got cool a new tank design that was better they still would have had to abandon too many of them because they could not supply their armies with enough fuel.

Yeah, but the topic here is what would be the best AFV strategy to jump on in 1941-1942 with the knowledge available (or allowed) at the time.

The tank designers aren't told "we are screwed already, but make a nice tank now".

[Warts 'n' all]

They should have "skipped" putting someone who was four stops short of Dagenham East into power in the first place. And remember children, don't trust a guy who hangs around pubs and never drinks beer.

[danfrodo]

Glubokii:  "had to do it NOW".  I get what you are saying but this all goes back to the choice to make war on the neighbors in the first place.  Once one starts a war, one's choices are indeed very limited.  And was Russia going to invade germany??  Hitler chose to invade russia for resources and in his head they were an existential threat, but were they actually a threat to germany?   Heck no, in my opinion.  And by invading Poland, Hitler lost his buffer state to the east, now his troops were on a front with the russians.  And was in a big mess, where each choice to try to fix his mess led to greater mess.

These were all choices, they didn't have to do any of it.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

55 minutes ago, danfrodo said:

And was Russia going to invade germany??

Oh yes. 

[Simcoe]

4 hours ago, danfrodo said:

Glubokii:  "had to do it NOW".  I get what you are saying but this all goes back to the choice to make war on the neighbors in the first place.  Once one starts a war, one's choices are indeed very limited.  And was Russia going to invade germany??  Hitler chose to invade russia for resources and in his head they were an existential threat, but were they actually a threat to germany?   Heck no, in my opinion.  And by invading Poland, Hitler lost his buffer state to the east, now his troops were on a front with the russians.  And was in a big mess, where each choice to try to fix his mess led to greater mess.

These were all choices, they didn't have to do any of it.

The issue with fascist governments is that violence is the ONLY answer. They run on a mandate of power through violence. Once Hitler came to power, peace with Russia was an impossibility. Whether that's rational or not, Nazi ideology can only produce war.

The scary thing is, had a few things gone differently (including the United States staying neutral) they could have done it.

[chuckdyke]

20 minutes ago, Simcoe said:

The issue with fascist governments is that violence is the ONLY answer. They run on a mandate of power through violence. Once Hitler came to power, peace with Russia was an impossibility. Whether that's rational or not, Nazi ideology can only produce war.

The scary thing is, had a few things gone differently (including the United States staying neutral) they could have done it.

Hitler invaded Poland but didn't declare war on anyone. He declared war on the US because of the Lend and Lease arrangement with the UK. UK and France declared war on Hitler it was a continuation of the First War which ended with an armistice. Prior World War 1 Poland didn't exist. After the congress of Vienna the country was partitioned between Prussia and Russia. The cause of the start of WW2 must be seen as the ambition of the return of the status quo by the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany who saw themselves as the successors of the two former empires. The scary thing was French and British politicians could have agreed with this point of view. Chamberlain certainly did. 

Edited January 27, 2022 by chuckdyke
Spelling

[chuckdyke]

Panzer IV needed a stronger and better engine and do what the Americans did with the Sherman (Jumbo). Panzer IV E (For Elefant) 

[Simcoe]

22 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

Hitler invaded Poland but didn't declare war on anyone. He declared war on the US because of the Lend and Lease arrangement with the UK. UK and France declared war on Hitler it was a continuation of the First War which ended with an armistice. Prior World War 1 Poland didn't exist. After the congress of Vienna the country was partitioned between Prussia and Russia. The cause of the start of WW2 must be seen as the ambition of the return of the status quo by the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany who saw themselves as the successors of the two former empires. The scary thing was French and British politicians could have agreed with this point of view. Chamberlain certainly did. 

Good summary but not sure what it has to do with my comment. Just asking in case there was more to discuss.

[chuckdyke]

Just now, Simcoe said:

Good summary but not sure what it has to do with my comment. Just asking in case there was more to discuss.

TBH I thought it was too much in black and white. Hitler was supported by ordinary German people not by 100% fanatical Nazis. They thought his ambitions were very reasonable.

[Glubokii Boy]

7 hours ago, danfrodo said:

 And was Russia going to invade germany?? 

- A germany weakened by a war against Brittain (with her allies)...Yes i belive they would.

- Had Germany not invaded Poland and started the war...Maybe not.

 

[slysniper]

getting off topic, beg Suprise.

 

[Probus]

27 minutes ago, slysniper said:

getting off topic, beg Suprise.

 

Yeah. That topic would be a good one for its own thread @Glubokii Boy! I have a lot of ideas in that regard. Let's keep this one tanks.

[Probus]

If Germany somehow overran an intact T-34 factory and with espionage knew exactly how to produce them, how would that have affected the war effort. Would that have been the tank to produce, picking up parts from the battlefield to help with logistics?

Does RT have German captured T-34s?

Edited January 27, 2022 by Probus

[Redwolf]

4 minutes ago, Probus said:

If Germany somehow overran an intact T-34 factory and with espionage knew exactly how to produce them, how would that have affected the war effort. Would that have been the tank to produce, picking up parts from the battlefield to help with logistics?

Does RT have German captured T-34s?

No, because of crew ergonomics. The T-34-85 would be a different matter, but that is also a development effort in 1941-1942.

There also is the diesel issue. The German supply capabilities shuffled gasoline. I don't know how easy that would be to change to a dual system.

[Glubokii Boy]

53 minutes ago, Probus said:

 Let's keep this one tanks.

Ok...sorry ! 

 

 

[danfrodo]

quick clarification:  I believe russia could not invade germany IF IF IF germany had not chosen to invade poland.  Once germany had done that, then yes, russia was in a more threatening position.  But w germany at peace w europe, then russia would've had to invade poland to get to powerful german forces, so no surprise available and a lot of buffer land. And if communist nation attacks westward, there's a good chance france and england actually would've helped germany, at least economically.  So just saying germany massively increased threat of soviet invasion by their own behavior.

But back to tanks.  A panther or tiger was great, and I love them.  But they can't cross smaller bridges.  There's a reason the T34-85 was kept at ~34 tons (that plus engine/tranny).  Not that the T34 was anything compared to the best german tanks, but mobility includes the ability to use any road/bridge available.  So I still vote w most of the folks above: less cost, less complexity but higher firepower, better crews, better optics could give shoot first, kill first and give the edge.

[FlemFire]

A lot of the German tanks get analyzed in the context of an already lost war where resources/stockpiles are drying up and the German army is operating on the backfoot. In that context, all those heavy tanks and unique designs are clearly not going to work, but neither is anything else. The unsexy answer is that a 1,000 more basic PzIII's in 1941 would have had infinitely more influence than 5,000 more PzIV's in 1944, because in 1941 there was an hint of winnability still left in the war. I think that winnability evaporated the moment they invaded Russia because they did not, in fact, have those additional tanks.

[danfrodo]

Khalerick, now there is a well-stated, clear and excellent point. 

[Glubokii Boy]

1 hour ago, Khalerick said:

 The unsexy answer is that a 1,000 more basic PzIII's in 1941 would have had infinitely more influence than 5,000 more PzIV's in 1944, because in 1941 there was an hint of winnability still left in the war. I think that winnability evaporated the moment they invaded Russia because they did not, in fact, have those additional tanks.

If you can't fuel them what good would they do ?

 

[A Canadian Cat]

  

On 1/22/2022 at 2:25 PM, civdiv said:

What would have been the positive effects in terms of increased numbers of tanks they actually should have produced?

 

20 hours ago, Redwolf said:

Yeah, but the topic here is what would be the best AFV strategy to jump on in 1941-1942 with the knowledge available (or allowed) at the time.

I believe the original question was: what tank strategy should have been taken and would it have had positive effects (from the German point of view). My answer to the second part is no it would not have had a significant effect on the out come of the war.

[Pelican Pal]

3 hours ago, Redwolf said:

No, because of crew ergonomics. The T-34-85 would be a different matter, but that is also a development effort in 1941-1942.

IIRC the Germans retrofitted captured T-34s with cupolas and radios. I think there were sorta significant numbers of them around 1942/43