Spotting issues (This IS crazy)

Michael Emrys · January 6, 2017

I just had an experience of this phenomenon. I had previously begun a QB on the Chance Encounter map set at dusk (1800 hours) in October with Mist conditions. Theoretical LOS limit was ~200m, but that turned out to be wildly optimistic as German and American vehicles were literally running into each other. It did make for some exciting play, but I don't think I ever want to repeat the experience. Talk about a knife fight in a phone booth...

Michael

IICptMillerII · January 6, 2017

9 hours ago, Warts 'n' all said:

I never use the artificial lighting toggle. The men on the ground had to fight in the dark in during winter '44/45, so my men have to as well. And besides, once you have a burning Ami half-track on the map your German troops can see perfectly.

Is this actually the case? Just a few days ago I saw someone saying that the light cast from a destroyed vehicle is purely cosmetic and does not improve the spotting ability of soldiers at all. I was under the impression that the fire from a destroyed vehicle would increase spotting ability, but now I'm not so sure. Any input?

MOS:96B2P · January 6, 2017

11 minutes ago, IICptMillerII said:

Is this actually the case? Just a few days ago I saw someone saying that the light cast from a destroyed vehicle is purely cosmetic and does not improve the spotting ability of soldiers at all. I was under the impression that the fire from a destroyed vehicle would increase spotting ability, but now I'm not so sure. Any input?

I don't think illumination from burning vehicles makes a difference. Wish it did. Below is a final post on a thread that talks about illumination in night battles.

Macisle · January 6, 2017

I just finished a reread of A Time for Trumpets and there are quite a lot of accounts of night/poor visibility causing things like the two sides bumping right into each other or mistaking enemy for friendlies until they had passed by or even stopped to talk then received a reply in the wrong language. One time, an American commander leading his men down a narrow backroad found that his path forward was being blocked by a group of parked tanks. So, he went up and rapped on the first tank to tell the crew to get the hell out of the way so his column could pass. When the hatch opened, the response was, "Was ist los?" The tanks were Panthers.

Another time, soldiers in a passing American convoy waved to a sizable group of tired soldiers resting in a ditch along the road. It was daytime and they were Volksgrenadiers. The VG didn't want a fight and just smiled and waved back. The convoy left without twigging what they had seen.

Battlefront.com · January 6, 2017

One of the things I love about CM more than anything else is that it offers "teachable moments". One of the things I love about tthis Forum more than anything else is people are here to help understand those moments.

There are two things going on here. First, there are indeed limitations to what the game can do in terms of spotting in order to keep the game playable even for larger scenarios. As a result there can be situations where the outcome is less than otimal. Over the years we've taken advantage of improved CPU speeds and reduced the conditions which led to WTF moments. Still can happen, but they are few and far inbetween.

The other thing going on is the major problems caused by combinations of adverse lighting and/or weather conditions mixed in with the usual factors as Experience, suppresison, movement, terrain, etc. Most games out there don't simulate this stuff at all or do a very cursurary treatment of it. Those games tend to not have much detail in their underlying modeling anyway, so a more generalized penalty ("can't spot beyond 50m, but within 50m it's as clear as day") is probably the more common game design.

Under rare circumstances the two situations might intersect producing an even more slap-hand-to-forehead kinda thing. But conversations like this remind us that these sorts of things DO happen in real life. While CM doesn't explicity simulate conditions which would lead a Bren Carrier to be bumping into a German Panzer, clearly these sorts of things should happen in CM because they did happen in real life.

The proper way to judge CM is to ask if these sorts of "crazy" results are happening proportionally or disproportionally across all gamers' experiences across all the games they play. You guys collectively have probably had more tactical battles (at CM scale) than in the real war, so it's not like your experience sample size is small

As for someone who lives far away from light pollution, I take the darkness for granted. For those of you who are not familiar with it, the easiest thing to do is go into a room (basement if you have one!) that has no light pollution from things like LED status lights, moonlight coming in through windows, etc. Turn off the lights and go to the middle of the room. Turn around a couple of times and then take a few steps. Do that a couple of times then try to find your way back to your lightswitch. Despte the fact that you should have excellent awareness of the "terrain" because you're intemiately familiar with it, I'm guessing you'll have a tough time getting the lights back on!

And with that suggestion, our lawyers state that Battlefront accepts no responsibility for any damage to person, property, or emotional state. Customers electing to experiment with the dark do so of their own free will and agree to hold Battlefront harmless for any adversity resulting from said experience. Or something similar. Since we don't have laywers I'm only guessing

Steve

Seedorf81 · January 6, 2017

On ‎5‎-‎1‎-‎2017 at 3:28 PM, c3k said:

^^^

That'd cause a bit of mess in the pants...

Perhaps Artemis' men thought the halftracks were German? Or, some of Skorzeny's lads...

(Blackout conditions: most modern westerners have rarely, if ever, really been in blackout conditions. I have. The "can't see your hand in front of your face" type. I walked right off a 40 foot cliff. (Survival school...the evasion portion. Yes, I evaded. Ow.))

Yes, you evaded. But did you survive?

IICptMillerII · January 6, 2017

1 hour ago, Macisle said:

I just finished a reread of A Time for Trumpets and there are quite a lot of accounts of night/poor visibility causing things like the two sides bumping right into each other or mistaking enemy for friendlies until they had passed by or even stopped to talk then received a reply in the wrong language. One time, an American commander leading his men down a narrow backroad found that his path forward was being blocked by a group of parked tanks. So, he went up and rapped on the first tank to tell the crew to get the hell out of the way so his column could pass. When the hatch opened, the response was, "Was ist los?" The tanks were Panthers.

Another time, soldiers in a passing American convoy waved to a sizable group of tired soldiers resting in a ditch along the road. It was daytime and they were Volksgrenadiers. The VG didn't want a fight and just smiled and waved back. The convoy left without twigging what they had seen.

I'm currently rereading A Time For Trumpets as well, and the scenario involving the Panther tanks is exactly what came to mind to me as well. (Fantastic book by the way)

As far as burning vehicles and illumination, its a relatively minor thing. Besides, I could easily see the shadows and stark contrast caused by burning vehicles to only add to the spotting confusion instead of enhancing it at all.

MikeyD · January 6, 2017

Night time is not just night time in the game. Moon rise and moon set and all the phases of the moon are accurately recreated and heavily influence illumination/LOS. I recall a scenario designer was having trouble getting a night battle to work. I suggested he go on the internet and check when moon rise was that day of the year. And yup, he had picked a moonless night to try to fight in. I remember putting together a battle after sunset for CMSF. The environment would get darker and darker then would get light again. I was scratching my head over it til I realized at that particular day of the year sunset is immediately followed by a full moon rise re-illuminating the landscape.

Buzz · January 6, 2017

4 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

The proper way to judge CM is to ask if these sorts of "crazy" results are happening proportionally or disproportionally across all gamers' experiences across all the games they play. You guys collectively have probably had more tactical battles (at CM scale) than in the real war, so it's not like your experience sample size is small

As for someone who lives far away from light pollution, I take the darkness for granted. For those of you who are not familiar with it, the easiest thing to do is go into a room (basement if you have one!) that has no light pollution from things like LED status lights, moonlight coming in through windows, etc. Turn off the lights and go to the middle of the room. Turn around a couple of times and then take a few steps. Do that a couple of times then try to find your way back to your lightswitch. Despte the fact that you should have excellent awareness of the "terrain" because you're intemiately familiar with it, I'm guessing you'll have a tough time getting the lights back on!

And with that suggestion, our lawyers state that Battlefront accepts no responsibility for any damage to person, property, or emotional state. Customers electing to experiment with the dark do so of their own free will and agree to hold Battlefront harmless for any adversity resulting from said experience. Or something similar. Since we don't have laywers I'm only guessing

Steve

Good point re: tactical battles (at CM scale).

Like "cup hooks"... Package for cup hooks ".... misuse can cause serious injury or death..." laywers but I'm only guessing

39 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

Night time is not just night time in the game. Moon rise and moon set and all the phases of the moon are accurately recreated and heavily influence illumination/LOS. I recall a scenario designer was having trouble getting a night battle to work. I suggested he go on the internet and check when moon rise was that day of the year. And yup, he had picked a moonless night to try to fight in. I remember putting together a battle after sunset for CMSF. The environment would get darker and darker then would get light again. I was scratching my head over it til I realized at that particular day of the year sunset is immediately followed by a full moon rise re-illuminating the landscape.

^^^ This is a feature I also noticed in playing around in the editor for a tactical night battle! Took a while to figure it out... but when I did... pretty cool influence illumination/LOS.

Buzz

Michael Emrys · January 7, 2017

8 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

As for someone who lives far away from light pollution, I take the darkness for granted.

Forty years ago I was living on 750 acres in the Santa Cruz Mountains that was a mixture of open meadow and dense tree cover. I could mostly get around okay at night even with no moon because in the open, the night sky was bright enough for me to see (I seem to have had exceptionally good night vision too), but as soon as my path went under some trees the use of a flashlight was strongly recommended. Otherwise, I'd be picking myself up off the ground.

Michael

Warts 'n' all · January 7, 2017

Thanks as always to Steve for his comments about the role night plays in the game in general.

In answer to the good captain, and with regards to this particular mission. I had sent some men off through the second field on the left including some HMGs who were staying close to the hedgerow that divides the two fields. I can't remember the distances but once one half-track was burning on the road out of town, I stopped the HMGs, turned them to face across the field bordering the road and join in the fight until all the Ami vehicles were knocked out. I still lost the mission, but is another story.

Bulletpoint · January 7, 2017

On 6/1/2017 at 5:27 PM, Battlefront.com said:

As for someone who lives far away from light pollution, I take the darkness for granted. For those of you who are not familiar with it, the easiest thing to do is go into a room (basement if you have one!) that has no light pollution from things like LED status lights, moonlight coming in through windows, etc. Turn off the lights and go to the middle of the room. Turn around a couple of times and then take a few steps. Do that a couple of times then try to find your way back to your lightswitch. Despte the fact that you should have excellent awareness of the "terrain" because you're intemiately familiar with it, I'm guessing you'll have a tough time getting the lights back on!

I agree that the countryside can get really dark, but if it's so dark that you can drive straight into an enemy Panzer, how are you able to drive your vehicle anywhere at all? How are soldiers able to move about the terrain? Not giving you any snark here, it just seems odd to me that we are able to play battles and maneuver with zero visibility.

I know vehicles had blinded headlights to avoid being seen from the air, but I assume they would be seen from the ground. Especially from the front.

Also, why is it so dark around dawn and dusk? I would expect that sort of darkness in the middle of the night, not around sunrise/sunset.

JonS · January 7, 2017

9 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

Also, why is it so dark around dawn and dusk? I would expect that sort of darkness in the middle of the night, not around sunrise/sunset.

You've never heard the phrase "it's always darkest just before dawn"?

Vanir Ausf B · January 7, 2017

11 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

I agree that the countryside can get really dark, but if it's so dark that you can drive straight into an enemy Panzer, how are you able to drive your vehicle anywhere at all? How are soldiers able to move about the terrain? Not giving you any snark here, it just seems odd to me that we are able to play battles and maneuver with zero visibility.

There is a common misconception that in CM the distance at which enemy units can be spotted is also the maximum distance anything can be seen. In fact the former is usually a small fraction of the latter. The blue target line shows how far can be seen well enough to area fire. On a clear night this can be hundreds of meters while spotting distance may be a few dozen meters.

c3k · January 8, 2017

5 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

I agree that the countryside can get really dark, but if it's so dark that you can drive straight into an enemy Panzer, how are you able to drive your vehicle anywhere at all? How are soldiers able to move about the terrain? Not giving you any snark here, it just seems odd to me that we are able to play battles and maneuver with zero visibility.

I know vehicles had blinded headlights to avoid being seen from the air, but I assume they would be seen from the ground. Especially from the front.

Also, why is it so dark around dawn and dusk? I would expect that sort of darkness in the middle of the night, not around sunrise/sunset.

I was using a compass when I stepped off into nothingness.

(The rest of the story: I was point, with a pace counter behind me. When I fell, arms wind-milling, I had no idea how far the fall would be. None. At. All. I kept a good PLF posture (parachute landing fall) throughout, and was lucky enough to hit a small declivity. The impact jarred me very hard. I've jumped from 20' platforms onto hard dirt. This was easily double that height. I could not breathe after the impact. It was a pretty cool hit...and bodily response. I did, however, realize that since I had been silent during my fall (can't be caught, you know), that the pace counter was about a second behind me. I immediately rolled/crawled away and was rewarded with the sound of a bag of meat smacking into the ground where I had just been. And then that bag of meat began making choking and grunting sounds. Two for two. I was able to inhale, and shouted a warning up to the rest. I was berated for lying down on the job and told that I'd be punished if I didn't catch up to the column. My mate was able to breathe again. We were able to stand, then walk, so we did. But we used walking sticks and probed very diligently after that.)

Edited January 8, 2017 by c3k

Michael Emrys · January 8, 2017

9 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

Also, why is it so dark around dawn and dusk? I would expect that sort of darkness in the middle of the night, not around sunrise/sunset.

As far as actual illumination is concerned, it does grow dark gradually after sunset and brighter before sunrise. That's in general and what it actually does on any particular occasion can be effected by a variety of conditions. If it clouds up suddenly around sunset, it's going to get darker faster. And even if it has been overcast all day, it is going to get dark sooner. Presence or absence of moonlight has been mentioned and is also a big factor. I've seen full moonlight so bright that I could actually make out colors. Snow on the ground can make a huge difference, one not necessarily expected until you experience it. Then there are subjective factors, like how dark adapted your eyes are. If you step out of a brightly illuminated room, for instance, your eyes will probably take half an hour or more before you have full light sensitivity. Then there are geographical factors. Twilight conditions linger much longer the farther south or north you go relative to the tropics.

Michael

Bulletpoint · January 8, 2017

11 hours ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

There is a common misconception that in CM the distance at which enemy units can be spotted is also the maximum distance anything can be seen. In fact the former is usually a small fraction of the latter. The blue target line shows how far can be seen well enough to area fire. On a clear night this can be hundreds of meters while spotting distance may be a few dozen meters.

I am aware of this, and it generally makes sense. But in this case we are talking about conditions that are so dark that I can walk straight into the side of a tank. How would I be able to move about at all? If I had a compass with glow-in-the-dark markings, I might know which general direction I'm heading, but I would bump into trees and fall down all the time. Did WW2 soldiers have some kind of very dim flashlight that would illuminate just enough to navigate on foot, but not be seen from a distance? Maybe with a red filter?

In any case, I'm surprised conditions are so dark in dawn/dusk settings. The hour before sunrise or sunset it is not pitch dark, neither in summer nor in winter. It's just that in winter, dawn comes much later than in summer - in Northern Europe at least.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Bulletpoint

Vanir Ausf B · January 8, 2017

21 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

How would I be able to move about at all?

Traveling by road, I would imagine.

Warts 'n' all · January 8, 2017

If Mama Cass said "the darkest hour is just before dawn". Then who am I to argue? Younger forumites might want to ask their grandparents about that one.

Vanir Ausf B · January 8, 2017

2 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

In any case, I'm surprised conditions are so dark in dawn/dusk settings. The hour before sunrise or sunset it is not pitch dark, neither in summer nor in winter. It's just that in winter, dawn comes much later than in summer - in Northern Europe at least.

It's not pitch dark in the game either. In fact spotting distances 30 minutes before sunrise in good weather are typically several times full darkness.

Bulletpoint · January 8, 2017

7 minutes ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

2 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

In any case, I'm surprised conditions are so dark in dawn/dusk settings. The hour before sunrise or sunset it is not pitch dark, neither in summer nor in winter. It's just that in winter, dawn comes much later than in summer - in Northern Europe at least.

It's not pitch dark in the game either. In fact spotting distances 30 minutes before sunrise in good weather are typically several times full darkness.

If it's not pitch black, then why are vehicles bumping into each other or running over infantry without being spotted?

Michael Emrys · January 8, 2017

3 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

Did WW2 soldiers have some kind of very dim flashlight that would illuminate just enough to navigate on foot, but not be seen from a distance? Maybe with a red filter?

I can personally attest to that since I briefly had one to play with as a child. As I recall, it had both a red and a blue filter that could be emplaced over the light or could be simply locked out of the way to give a white light.

Michael

Michael Emrys · January 8, 2017

1 hour ago, Bulletpoint said:

If it's not pitch black, then why are vehicles bumping into each other or running over infantry without being spotted?

Sometimes it is pitch black. Thick overcast on a moonless night can be very dark, and if you are also under trees I can easily imagine running into all sorts of things that you could not see before you fell over them.

Michael

Bulletpoint · January 8, 2017

58 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said:

Sometimes it is pitch black. Thick overcast on a moonless night can be very dark

Yes, but we are talking dawn and dusk settings. This discussion seems to be going in circles

Pete Wenman · January 8, 2017

I've just pulled this from

https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/belgium/liege

I assume this is for either 2016 or 2017, but it gives an indication as to when the sun rises and sets.

Yearly Sun Graph for Liège

18 Dec

000204060810121416182022

Night:

00:00 - 06:33

18:35 - 00:00

Total: