Spotting issues (This IS crazy)

[Artemis258]

This is crazy. 

I'm playing through kampfgruppe peiper, and a platoon of my infantry (dismounted) ran head long into a platoon of the enemy (mounted). Needless to say, it was a bloodbath. However that's not the surprising part. 

The surprising part is when a sound contact (turned out to be a halftrack full of amerikanskis) RAN OVER a squad of veteran pioneers... who didn't notice... and kept running. Didn't even see it. The vehicle then came to a rest NOSE TO NOSE with one of my halftracks, turned out, AND NEITHER NOTICED EACHOTHER! Finally, another halftrack drives up, gets spotted, and the exchange of fire sets everyone off, and everyone can see everyone now. Most of the Americans are dead now. 

The time is 7:30 am. The conditions are misty... but this is ridiculous. You notice being run over!!!!!!!!!!! 

Save available on request. 


 

Sound contact in read, moving UP the road. 




getting run over




not spotted yet. 



Finally! 

 

Aftermath: 7 german killed or wounded. Americans: 1 halftrack on fire, 2 abandoned, contents all dead. Probably more casualties in the one behind. Best of about a platoon massacred. 

EDIT: This is in CM:FB running engine version 4. I've repeated this, same effect. 

Edited January 5, 2017 by Artemis258

[c3k]

This is why you should NEVER nap while being driven around a battlefield.

Spotting can be problematic in certain cases...and you've found one. Remember, checking for LOS is not continuous. Each unit "spots" at different intervals. (This can be 2 to 10 seconds or so, based on my observation of the game.) This keeps the game playable(reduced cpu overhead). Also, certain actions cause immediate LOS checks and ALSO cause easier spotting. Firing is one such action. A unit which is firing is more easily spotted than one which is not firing. Once the first shot in your example is fired, then the enemy sees that guy, they all open up, then they in turn are all spotted.

The crux of the example you've shown is the initial spotting range. Night, mist, inside a vehicle all reduce spotting range.

Another weakness of LOS in the game is infantry in a low-lying terrain (like a roadside ditch) being unable to spot a vehicle on the road without a long delay. It seems like the LOS is checked FIRST to the road surface...THEN if that's clear, it checks to see if the vehicle is seen. So, if your men are prone in a ditch, they cannot see the road. Therefore, the game doesn't let them see a tank ON the road. No LOS to the road means no LOS to anything ON the road. This is not hard and fast: men below a road (slope, ditch, whatever) WILL spot a vehicle...it just takes longer.

This does not excuse the lack of LOS...just explains it. You've gotten a perfect storm of poor LOS factors working against your men. Or, they were exhausted and napping.

(If you have a savegame, see if you can position some of your men in an upper floor of one of the roadside houses. Compare their ability to spot the enemy to the men you have hugging the bushes/hedgerows or in the halftrack. Failing that, give your men in the bushes/hedgerow a cover arc facing the road. That may get them up so that they have LOS to the road surface.)

 

[Artemis258]

mmmm.... perhaps there needs to be a proximity alarm of some sort to force a spotting check, because there was no ditch and the squad that got run over were on the same side of the hedge row as the halftrack... it literally had to run them all over to get where it did... 

Perfect storm indeed! 

[Bulletpoint]

@Artemis258 I think the problems might be caused by the mist. Recently I played a PBEM with a very similar problem, also in twilight misty conditions. Armoured cars physically bumping against each other but not spotting anything for 1-2 minutes.

Just a theory, in case someone is curious and would like to test it out.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Bulletpoint

[Wicky]

I don't think the game has working streetlamps represented :-)

Put it down to confusion in the pitch black a la Operation Totalize

 

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=WfE7AwAAQBAJ&pg=PT95&lpg=PT95&dq=Operation+Totalize+night+battle+tank&source=bl&ots=O71OeXG49y&sig=hG5YccQGFKImIlU0oa2DnctcQhw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwidyNq8kKvRAhXJzRoKHeXrDx04ChDoAQhMMAw#v=onepage&q=Operation Totalize night battle tank&f=false

[c3k]

^^^

That'd cause a bit of mess in the pants...

Perhaps Artemis' men thought the halftracks were German? Or, some of Skorzeny's lads...

(Blackout conditions: most modern westerners have rarely, if ever, really been in blackout conditions. I have. The "can't see your hand in front of your face" type. I walked right off a 40 foot cliff. (Survival school...the evasion portion. Yes, I evaded. Ow.))

[IICptMillerII]

Just want to quickly point out that the campaign takes place during the darkest time of year. The sun comes up late and sets early. I do not know exactly when sunrise is, but I do know that by 7:30am it is still quite dark out. That coupled with the mist explains most of this. 

As for bumping into enemy units, there are a surprising number of personal combat accounts of things like this happening. One example off the top of my head is that during D-Day (early morning hours) a patrol of American paratroopers passed a patrol of Germans going the opposite direction down a waist level stone wall. The troopers passed within inches of the German patrol and no one noticed the other was on the other side. So these things do happen.

[Rinaldi]

I remember when this happened in my playthrough too  - I knew it was coming from reading about the seperate Armored Infantry unit at the battle though and had my Stummels in front.

This is one of the few times where I'll say it wasn't the janky spotting system; the weather and light conditions limit spotting to 50m at first. That doesn't mean you'll immediately identify things at 50m, just that it becomes possible. In that context its far less surprising this happens. Its also good to note that this happened constantly in WWII. We have stories from the Roncey pocket for example of German motorized columns passing in the opposite direction of Armored spearheads with niether side really realizing what's happening. Upon realization and some delay of course, the German column would be totally and completely smashed.

You should also use the atrocious weather to your adv. in this mission. I had my HMGs set up enfilading possible defence points of the bridge well before visibility was at 200m and was able to push and secure the North side of the bridge as visibility generally improved. Look for oppurtunities where you otherwise find frustration, lots of dismounted infilitration routes to be had in this scenario.

Bit of context, bit of suspension of disbelief and a bit of puckering. That's what I like about situations like this.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Rinaldi

[Warts 'n' all]

It might be cowardly but as soon as I got the first sound contact I put my infantry in ambush positions, buildings and hedges etc. Backed my AFVs off just a tad then had them open up and waited for the Amis to walk into my trap and die in their burning vehicles.

[MOS:96B2P]

2 hours ago, Artemis258 said:

<Snip> The time is 7:30 am. The conditions are misty... but this is ridiculous. You notice being run over!!!!!!!!!!!     <Snip> 

My understanding is Its a game engine limitation not a bug.  However it does suck when it happens.    

 

34 minutes ago, c3k said:

<Snip> Blackout conditions: most modern westerners have rarely, if ever, really been in blackout conditions. <Snip> 

This.  It can be hard to understand but it does get so dark you can't see your own hand in front of your face.  Even when the power goes out in an urban semi-urban area on a cloudy night there is usually still power a few blocks or a few miles away that sends up light which bounces off the cloud cover and provides a low level of illumination.  Or if no clouds there are the stars, moon, vehicles etc. providing some light.  In a rural area when it is cloudy (as is normal during a storm) and a significant portion of the county loses power (so the town several miles away isn't lighting up the horizon) it is the kind of dark where you can't see your hand in front of your face.  Then the stand-by generators kick in and all is good again .............         

[Artemis258]

Fair enough on the darkness, hadn't put my mind in the european winter mindset... Though I have been in Europe in those conditions (though not true blackout). Aussie mind. The run over thing still bugs me though - but that does seem to be an engine limitation... none the less an exciting moment that soon into the battle.

Thanks for all the replies guys! 

Edited January 5, 2017 by Artemis258

[Artemis258]

End result of that mission - took heavy casualties in close range firefights, held on my side of the bridge with a minor victory. 14 lost. another 20 wounded. The americans are down 57 with another 30 wia. 


not too shabby. 

[Pak40]

8 hours ago, Artemis258 said:

The time is 7:30 am. The conditions are misty... but this is ridiculous. You notice being run over!!!!!!!!!!! 

I remember playing this battle and had a similar result. I don't quite remember what the LOS distance was at the 7:30 am mark, maybe 100m?

Anyway, I was curious about the actual sunrise time in real life. The battle IIRC took place on Dec 17 or 18, almost the shortest day of the year. Using an online sunrise calculator for today, Jan 5 in Liege Belgium (The closes city I could find on the site), the sunrise is 8:38am. Considering the time of day, it should be pitch black or near to it. And we know that it was very overcast and possibly very foggy that morning. Sounds about right that two vehicles would bump into each other like that in those conditions.

[General Jack Ripper]

6 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

This.  It can be hard to understand but it does get so dark you can't see your own hand in front of your face.  Even when the power goes out in an urban semi-urban area on a cloudy night there is usually still power a few blocks or a few miles away that sends up light which bounces off the cloud cover and provides a low level of illumination.  Or if no clouds there are the stars, moon, vehicles etc. providing some light.  In a rural area when it is cloudy (as is normal during a storm) and a significant portion of the county loses power (so the town several miles away isn't lighting up the horizon) it is the kind of dark where you can't see your hand in front of your face.  Then the stand-by generators kick in and all is good again .............         

I think people tend to forget how dark the dark really is, until they happen upon an area without any artificial light.

After camping out in the woods plenty of times, I can assure our metropolitan forum goers that dark, is indeed very dark.

In fact, I highly recommend not walking around the woods at night unless you absolutely have to, or are packing illumination.

My advice: always check to see if the moon is in the sky before commencing night operations. If the moon isn't up, then your visibility is effectively zero.

Edited January 5, 2017 by SLIM

[A Canadian Cat]

And to top it off the game does not reflect how dark it really is. Even with the artificial brightness turned off it is no where near dark enough.

In fact I'll pitch this idea here: I would like to see the game have a toggle (either on off or three levels) for darkness and fog. Lets use darkness as an example with three levels. There would be "what the pixel soldiers actually see" where you can only see stuff 10m away from the camera if that is what the visibility is, "what we have now" where you can tell it is pretty dark but can still see to give orders and find units and finally "artificially bright" where it is like now with the artificial light that makes it easier to play in the night.

Similarly for fog. And having only two levels would be OK too. The point is we have a way to see what the soldiers see - which in the case of darkness and fog is often sweet * all. If we knew what it was like for them we would not be as surprised when stuff like this happened. Well we *would* be surprised but you know what I mean

This idea originally came from a discussion that @Bud Backer and I had although I think he had the idea and pitched it to me. But I liked it so now I pitch it when I get the opportunity.

What do you guys think.

[General Jack Ripper]

1 minute ago, IanL said:

What do you guys think.

No offense Ian, but what we really need are illumination flares.

[MOS:96B2P]

7 minutes ago, IanL said:

<Snip> What do you guys think.

It would be a good fit for Iron. 

Edited January 5, 2017 by MOS:96B2P

[A Canadian Cat]

15 minutes ago, SLIM said:

No offense Ian, but what we really need are illumination flares.

Those would be good too yes.

[A Canadian Cat]

9 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

It would be a good fit for Iron. 

I don't think it should be tied to the play levels. While not one is actually going to play exclusively on the real darkness setting everyone does need to understand what the real tactical environment is like.

[c3k]

1 hour ago, IanL said:

I don't think it should be tied to the play levels. While not one is actually going to play exclusively on the real darkness setting everyone does need to understand what the real tactical environment is like.

Speak for yourself, pilgrim. I do. All the time. I turn my monitor off, but keep the volume nice and loud. I still make orders, but you can imagine how confused my men must be. When the fighting starts, it's bloody. I wait till sunrise, then turn on the monitor and see what's what.

[Rinaldi]

40 minutes ago, c3k said:

Speak for yourself, pilgrim. I do. All the time. I turn my monitor off, but keep the volume nice and loud. I still make orders, but you can imagine how confused my men must be. When the fighting starts, it's bloody. I wait till sunrise, then turn on the monitor and see what's what.

True Grog

[MikeyD]

I'm awful at playing night battles so I tend to leave the B artificial bright toggle on. But every once in awhile I toggle it to true night lighting and am like "Oh my God, I cannot see my virtual hand in front of my virtual face!"

[IICptMillerII]

I've actually never gotten my artificial brightness button to work. All of the other hotkeys I have function properly, but when I try Alt+B at night, nothing happens. One of the reasons I tend to avoid night battles, even though the default brightness is usually fine for playing them. 

[Artemis258]

The 'how dar is it really' lighting option would be amazing, but failing that another field in the conditions section with 'approximate visibility: xx meters' would suffice... Without briefing notes it can be hard to tell, and as Pak40 said, you can get a target command out to about 100 meters... That gives the impression that it was brighter than it really was. 

[Warts 'n' all]

I never use the artificial lighting toggle. The men on the ground had to fight in the dark in during winter '44/45, so my men have to as well. And besides, once you have a burning Ami half-track on the map your German troops can see perfectly.