Can the new system handle cityfghting like Stalingrad.

[Hamilcar1967]

I know the eastern front is a long way off but was wondering. How would the new game system handles a ruined city environment. Large amounts of rubble large factories. Can you have buildings where different floors are controlled by the opposing sides.

[MikeyD]

CMSF had some pretty intense city fighting, especially around the ending scenarios in several of the various campaigns. Large building fighting is a deathtrap.

[BulletRat]

I'd say the limiting factor would be your computers hardware, not the game engine itself?

[YankeeDog]

You should try CMSF. There's tons of CMSF scenarios featuring heavy urban combat.

But generally speaking, yes; CMx2 handles MOUT pretty well. There are some refinements I'd like to see by the time the game gets around to the Ost Front, but IMHO what's in CMSF is a good start and all the pieces are basically there.

You can certainly have segments of of a larges structure controlled by opposing sides.

[Hamilcar1967]

How about basements and sewer systems.

[ChrisND]

How about basements and sewer systems.

No basements, no sewer systems. It also lack a "factory" style building, but it can simulating with creative building placement I bet.

Of course, who knows what will have been added by the time we get to 1942/43 Eastern Front. I can't wait to see Stalingrad in all it's CMy glory.

[YankeeDog]

How about basements and sewer systems.

Not in yet, unless added in CMBN, which I wouldn't have any knowledge of. I doubt they're in CMBN, either, though, as there was relatively little combat in heavily built-up areas in the Normandy campaign. So I suspect basements and sewers are relatively low on the priority list, for now.

This is one of the "refinements" I'd like to see before CMx2 tries to tackle an extended urban combat campaign, like Stalingrad.

[gunnersman]

I don't know that you will ever see basements and sewer movement. That's kind of like flamethrowers for CMBN. There have been many examples in other threads prior to the CMBN forum where hindsight was 20/20 and sewer movement in CMBB was used to make a point where it really was not worth it to put it in the game.

But anything could change between now and the Ost Front. That's a long ways away.

[Battlefront.com]

Flamethrowers are worth putting in because people will use them (too much, in fact!). Sewer fighting in CMBB was used by practically nobody, yet probably took more effort to include. Therefore...

No Sewer movement in CMx2 probably ever. Flamethrowers will absolutely be in at some point.

Basement fighting is more-or-less a means of shelter, not a means of a fighting position. We don't feel it is necessary to include.

Steve

[Phantom Captain]

"Fighting in a basement has a lot of disadvantages, one of them being: you're fighting in a basement."

"Well you don't have to be Stonewall Jackson to know you don't want to fight in a basement."

-Lt. Aldo Raines, Inglorius Basterds

[ChrisND]

"Fighting in a basement has a lot of disadvantages, one of them being: you're fighting in a basement."

"Well you don't have to be Stonewall Jackson to know you don't want to fight in a basement."

-Lt. Aldo Raines, Inglorius Basterds

I think a voice mod is in order... who can do a Brad Pitt impression?

[MikeyD]

It also lack a "factory" style building

Weeeeell... Two modular building facade types from the 7-8 available are meant to depict lower class 'worker' buildings. String a couple big-long buildings together and pick the appropriate window arrangement and you've got yourself some acceptible ersatz factories or warehouses. No fifty foot tall smokestacks, I'll grant you that.

[gunnersman]

"Fighting in a basement has a lot of disadvantages, one of them being: you're fighting in a basement."

"Well you don't have to be Stonewall Jackson to know you don't want to fight in a basement."

-Lt. Aldo Raines, Inglorius Basterds

[Hamilcar1967]

Funny dont remember sewers being in CMBB. So probably a good Idea not to put them in the new game.

[RogCBrand]

Funny dont remember sewers being in CMBB. So probably a good Idea not to put them in the new game.

They were extremely abstracted- your guys, at some point would "disappear", then depending on the distance they were traveling- only in urban areas- they would randomly pop out- though there was a chance of them never making it out!

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Flamethrowers are worth putting in because people will use them (too much, in fact!). Sewer fighting in CMBB was used by practically nobody, yet probably took more effort to include. Therefore...

Steve

Am currently fighting a massive recreation of a portion of the Stalingrad battlefield in CMBB at the moment. If it weren't for the availability of sewer movement my forces would have no chance of being able to succesfully assault structures such as the Southern Manufacturing Hall seeing as its surrounded by minefields and a continuous line of wire. I for one am very glad you took the time to include this feature.

Regards

KR

[Sergei]

Weeeeell... Two modular building facade types from the 7-8 available are meant to depict lower class 'worker' buildings. String a couple big-long buildings together and pick the appropriate window arrangement and you've got yourself some acceptible ersatz factories or warehouses. No fifty foot tall smokestacks, I'll grant you that.

Not really the same, though - the most important thing about properly doing a factory is not the exterior but the interior, and a factory hall is just internally very different than a same size apartment or office building. Factory halls are designed to be as open as possible to enable moving large pieces of machinery around, so there would have to be very good visibility inside the hall - all the hardware would provide good cover, though. For most part there would also be only one enterable floor, while the building itself would be as tall as a two or three floor building. Kind of like a church, only bigger.

But large factories were seldom fought over during the battle for France, it's more acute when the game gets to Rhine.

As for cityfighting in general, MOUT was already a big part of CMSF design so there's wall breaching and what not. I think things like those will also get more refined as the game is developed further.

[stikkypixie]

Abstracted hand to hand combat?

[Erik Springelkamp]

I have seen a couple of maps in CMSF where a building was placed on a sunken piece of ground, so the lower floor became effectively a basement. Gives an enemy unit very good cover until you enter the building.

[Wodin]

After playing CMSF I'd say that no other game could replicate that fighting aswell as CMx2....thats why I desperately want the OstFront game...

The only issue is sewers...

My dream is a CMx2 attack on the Barric=kady Factory scenario...CMx1 never felt right but CMSF has house to house fighting pretty much nailed.

[drtechno]

Not really the same, though - the most important thing about properly doing a factory is not the exterior but the interior, and a factory hall is just internally very different than a same size apartment or office building. Factory halls are designed to be as open as possible to enable moving large pieces of machinery around, so there would have to be very good visibility inside the hall - all the hardware would provide good cover, though. For most part there would also be only one enterable floor, while the building itself would be as tall as a two or three floor building. Kind of like a church, only bigger.

But large factories were seldom fought over during the battle for France, it's more acute when the game gets to Rhine.

As for cityfighting in general, MOUT was already a big part of CMSF design so there's wall breaching and what not. I think things like those will also get more refined as the game is developed further.

No.. factories ARE included in CMN.. read the building creation tool instructions. You can create buildings without interior partitions, allowing for open interiors for visibility and engagement. Interior obstructions and cover are abstracted, much like the "1st floor" of a building isn't one large open space, rather a series of rooms and connections. The interior is just abstracted, which is fine.

[Sgt Joch]

Am currently fighting a massive recreation of a portion of the Stalingrad battlefield in CMBB at the moment. If it weren't for the availability of sewer movement my forces would have no chance of being able to succesfully assault structures such as the Southern Manufacturing Hall seeing as its surrounded by minefields and a continuous line of wire. I for one am very glad you took the time to include this feature.

Regards

KR

At BoB? I did not participate in the last round, but that is one of the best tournament I ever played in. Beautiful map of the factory district.

However, it is also one of the best examples of the limit of the CMx1 system.

In CMBB, infantry does not exist in the 3d world, but only as in a 2d game, so it can enter any terrain or fire into any hex. You can line up your men inside a factory and they can shoot through solid walls at anyone outside; or you can have your men sprint through the wall across the street, through the wall of the opposing factory and have them materialise in front of your enemy. Because of that the mapmakers had to resort to various tricks, such as placing barbed wire around almost all buildings to prevent this.

In CMBN, each individual soldier exists in the 3d world. It can only fire in/out of a building through an opening (door, window, hole); it can also only enter a building through a door or hole. You can only go through a wall if your engineers first blast a hole throught it. It raises MOUT to a whole new level.

...just make sure you check where the door is located before you order your men to rush a building..

[Vark]

I always found the problem with urban combat (especially Stalingrad type encounters) was the inability of soldiers to area target grenades, which makes a nonsense of the weapon, when used in such an environment. Talking of basements, didn't the US suffer in Aachen because of such fortified positions, often bringing up self-propelled artillery to blast such structures, if so will buildings reflect ad-hoc defensive measures by enemy troops! Then fortified basements, and similar measures, can be factored into the buildings defensive value.

[ng cavscout]

"Fighting in a basement has a lot of disadvantages, one of them being: you're fighting in a basement."

"Well you don't have to be Stonewall Jackson to know you don't want to fight in a basement."

-Lt. Aldo Raines, Inglorius Basterds

Never really liked that movie. I really think Tarantino never quite equaled Reservoir Dogs.

[akd]

I always found the problem with urban combat (especially Stalingrad type encounters) was the inability of soldiers to area target grenades, which makes a nonsense of the weapon, when used in such an environment. Talking of basements, didn't the US suffer in Aachen because of such fortified positions, often bringing up self-propelled artillery to blast such structures, if so will buildings reflect ad-hoc defensive measures by enemy troops! Then fortified basements, and similar measures, can be factored into the buildings defensive value.

Basements became of great tactical importance for the defenders as the Allies moved east toward Germany. I don't know why Steve is discounting them so.