SS - supermen or just mama's boys with lots of toys?

[Dietrich]

Is there anyone here who wouldn't want to stomp around in one of their cool informs? Darth Vader loves em.

Darth Vader's outfit may be all (well, almost all) black, but to my eye he looks basically like a long-cloaked futuristic partially-armored samurai. It's the Imperial officers whose various black/grey uniforms look German-esque.

See? It's even grey-green à la Feldgrau. =P

[user38]

From my internet research I understand leather SS trench coats are are quite popular in certain circles.

[sburke]

From Wikipedia, Battle of Kharkov

"Although the Germans were also understrength, the Wehrmacht successfully flanked, encircled and defeated the Red Army's armored spearheads south of Kharkov. This enabled von Manstein to renew his offensive against the city of Kharkov proper, which began on 7 March. Despite orders to encircle Kharkov from the north, the SS Panzer Corps instead decided to directly engage Kharkov on 11 March. This led to four days of house-to-house fighting before Kharkov was finally recaptured by the 1st SS Panzer ("Leibstandarte") Division on 15 March. Two days later, the Germans also recaptured Belgorod, creating the salient which in July 1943 would lead to the Battle of Kursk. The German offensive cost the Red Army an estimated 70,000 casualties but the house-to-house fighting in Kharkov was also particularly bloody for the German SS Panzer Corps, which had lost approximately 4,300 men by the time operations ended in late March."

I remember having a great documentary series on the eastern front, there was footage from the counter attack at Karkov showing the fresh and fit SS units with their brand new halftracks, hoods draped with the Nazi flag and they just had this look that they were ready to fight.

I have a copy of Last Victory in Russia that spends a few pages on the fighting in Kharkov. IIRC correctly at one point it suggests Manstein specifically has a direct seizure as a course of action as well as a direct command from Hitler to Sepp Dietrich (partly to make up for having withdrawn against orders from Kharkov earlier. Don't know of the truth of either.

[Erwin]

You can thank HUGO BOSS for the great-looking SS and other Nazi uniforms...

And you can still buy his stuff I am told. Isn't that what James Bond wore in Casino Royale etc?

[hoolaman]

Proportionately, quite a few of the SS divisions were Pz or PzGren. Like, maybe 33%? Compare that to the army were it was down around 10%. But as far as the Western Allies were concerned, every SS division they encountered in Italy and Normandy and France and BeNeLux and Germany (well, except for 6th SS Mtn, but that was late in the campaign) was either a Pz or PzGren div, which would tend to give a distorted view. The Western Allies didn't come across the hopelessly incompetent muppets like the Florian Geyer, Handschar, or Lützow divisions.

This is really the key to it I think. They were not neccesarily better armed or supplied than their army equivalents, its just that they tended to be heavier formations anyway. One might argue that as being better equipped but that is a bit misleading.

I recall early SS in Barbarossa just looked like a bunch of enthusiastic amatuers with whatever leftovers they could scrounge.

[Magpie_Oz]

You can thank HUGO BOSS for the great-looking SS and other Nazi uniforms...

And you can still buy his stuff I am told. Isn't that what James Bond wore in Casino Royale etc?

Yeh and ......... oh, hang on. Last time I posted the list of modern day companies that supplied the Nazi's, the thread got closed so I won't do it again.

[Magpie_Oz]

when i think of ss fanatacism, i think of the scene in "a bridge too far" when the germans came across the bridge and were quickly tore up by the waiting british. at the very end, a soldier jumps out of his vehicle and charges towards the british. heh, very brave but stupid...

Actually he was running to try to save his comrade who was trapped in a burning armour car, not really an SS thing per se.

[zukkov]

Actually he was running to try to save his comrade who was trapped in a burning armour car, not really an SS thing per se.

really? i've watched that movie several times and never caught that. i do remember the guy in the burning vehicle, but didn't notice the other guy was trying to save him. guess i'm forced to watch it again, not that i mind..

[Wiggum]

"SS - supermen or just mama's boys with lots of toys?"

...most likely this was discussed 1000 times in over 1000 differend WW2(game) forums.

Were they superman ?

No, but...

Were they mama's boys with lots of toys ?

No, but...

First, its important to note that the "elite" status of a unit does not mean that they were all superman.

In WW2 most "elite" units were meant to be elite from start on. They were well trained, got good Officers and NCO's and the best equipment.

Only a few units fought so well that they were considered as "elite" just by there combat performance.

So, divisions like the 1st SS Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler "must" be elite (take a look at the name).

Sure there combat performance was above average too, so they deserve this status.

But there were many ordinary wehrmacht divisions that fought as well as the best SS fomations did, they just not had those super cool insignia and uniforms...

Ok, the SS formations were more fanatic some will say, but many wehrmacht formations were as stubborn and willing to take heavy casualities.

The same goes for other armies too, for example the US 101st Airborne Division.

They were meant to be elite and fought well...but were they that much "better" then a ordinary Army division ?

The problem is how can you measure combat power ?

Just by looking at single battles, sure not...

By looking only on training and equipment, no...

There are so many factors that decide the outcome of a battle.

"Elite" formations like the Rangers or some Waffen-SS units could get a bad beating by ordinary divisions (look at the Battle of Cisterna).

A poorly planed attack will result in a disaster, even if elite unis attack.

Units without food and ammunition or with little experience and no cohesion are more likely to loose a fight or even surrender...whatever status they have or not have.

[gunnergoz]

My two bits: They were hell on wheels when it came to gunning down civilians, where ever they served. And I'm not talking about the death squads, just the line SS units. They had a generation of well-brainwashed youth to pick from and they used them up. The Germans had lots of competent fighting units, but the truly elite SS formations could well be the only ones that could properly be defined as competent fanatics. They were fighting as much for the idea of National Socialism as much as they were fighting for the Fatherland. Of course, when the chips are down, soldiers fight for their buddies, squad mates and unit, but these guys had a special elan that let them shrug off casualties and come back for more. You might call it resilience bred of a certainty that they were specially chosen, had a destiny and a rep to keep.

Thankfully, not all of their formations were like that, but the half dozen or so that were true blue, were really extraordinary in their ferocity and aggressiveness. It took a lot of good men getting killed to put down Hitler's mad dogs. Let's hope we never see their like, again.

That's my opinion, yours may vary depending upon your medication levels.

[Vark]

Actually he was running to try to save his comrade who was trapped in a burning armour car, not really an SS thing per se.

The person in the burning half-track is meant to be Grabner, in his abortive coup-de-main? attack on the paras, so the rescue attempt is quite understandable. The actual attack though demonstrates that the elite, we can do anything attitude, often leads to great loss. This thread got me reading about the SS's experience against the BEF and boy were they rough handled by the Brits! I guess that's why I guess they massacred prisoners, to relieve frustration and prove to themselves how great they were, sad that some people venerate these losers as 'elite'.

On a note about SS panzer grenadier divisions they often fielded a regiment of tanks, not the usual battalion so were the equivalent of a Panzer division, hence their initial combat power in operations.

[JonS]

On a note about SS panzer grenadier divisions they often fielded a regiment of tanks, not the usual battalion so were the equivalent of a Panzer division, hence their initial combat power in operations.

True. 1st SS Div, IIRC, started out being labelled a (mot.) div, and then a PzGren Div, before it was eventually designated a Pz Div. I think that last change occurred in 1943? In the context of 1944 - and especially the experience of the Western Allies - I was thinking of units like 17th SS Div.

[Magpie_Oz]

The person in the burning half-track is meant to be Grabner, in his abortive coup-de-main? attack on the paras, so the rescue attempt is quite understandable. The actual attack though demonstrates that the elite, we can do anything attitude, often leads to great loss.

Well no not really and again we see myth created were there is none.

The "abortive coup-de-main" came about because the recce co had moved across the bridge and driven down to Nijmegen bridge to investigate reports of paratroopers.

When they got to Nijmegen there was nothing going on (don't get me started on that !) so they turned around and headed home, only to be ambushed on the Arnhem bridge by 2 Para which had taken up positions after they had gone through.

The elite can do attitude was more a case of "WTF was that !"

Mama's boys with lots of toys, groovy cams tho'

[wolf66]

The SS were neither supermen nor mommas boys.

They were fools, led by a promise of glory.

They believed the lies they were fed.

Like many conquering empires before and since, the German third reich claimed that a god was on their side.

The SS were the faithfull believers who bought it all, hook-line-and-sinker.

Much of their reputation was German propaganda... Some was lucky victorys and idiotic atrocitys... The rest was allied propaganda.

Most people today tend to obey authority figures, and 1930s era Germans were no different. The men of the SS were obeying orders.

They believed the propaganda lies they were fed, and followed leaders who lied to them.

Ah ! like the Marines !

[user38]

This may be a little off topic because it goes to the motivation of german troops in general rather than the SS specifically. I am currently reading a book about Market Garden from the German perspective: It Never Snows in September: The German View of Market Garden and the Battle of Arnhem, September 1944 by Robert J. Kershaw.

Doris Dantscher was 71 when she was 'bombed out' in Munich. Her letter written on 20 July to her children is typical of hundreds received by troops at the front...

...Soldiers from the West German provinces worried constantly about relatives until they were evacuated. News of atrocities in eastern Prussia at the hands of the Red Army, and continuing tragedies caused by the bombing offensive, created the so-called verruckte Helmuts or 'crazy Helmuts'. 'Every platoon had one', reported one Fallschirmjäger veteran. Despite inadequate training, men who had lost everything - families, sweethearts, homes - became depersonalised by despair. They had nothing further to look forward to, except perhaps to fight and expend their lives dearly in order to extract revenge. Such unpredictable individuals became deadly adversaries to the enemy, but their fanatical recklessness had to be closely monitored by unit commanders.

All these factors had a collective impact upon fighting quality at the front. Not often admitted was perhaps the prime emotion motivating German tenacity at this stage of the war. It was bound up with a desire to protect the Homeland and families against the very excesses that had been committed by the German armies in their own campaigns to date. A dreadful realisation that they may soon be fighting the war in their own streets and gardens began to grip German soldiers. It would be inaccurate to term this realisation 'war guilt', as the full implication of the systematic slaughter of the Jews and 'undesirables' was only gradually beginning to emerge publicly. Most Germans were, as they claim, unaware of the depredations being committed in the twilight zone administered by the political arm of the SS. But there was sufficient evidence at hand to make many uneasy. This produced a type of fatalistic resignation; an awareness that the Reich had probably 'burnt its boats' and the only recourse was to fight on.

[Sgt Joch]

When dealing with the SS, it is difficult to separate the myth from the facts.

The myth was that they were elite soldiers, superbly equipped who fought to the last man. The truth is actually more mondane.

The strength of the SS divisions came more from the fact that they were usually at full TO&E when they entered combat whereas many Heer divisions, especially in 1944, were often severely understrength. However, this was more the case on the Ostfront, in Normandy many Heer divisions, such as Panzer Lehr and 21st Panzer were also at full strength on june 6.

In terms of manpower however, there does not appear to have been an overall advantage. For example, if you look at the 12th SS Panzer, it had a cadre of officers and NCOs with extensive combat experience on the Ostfront, but the majority of the troops were raw recruits fresh out of basic training. In june, it was facing the 3rd Canadian infantry division/2nd armored brigade. None of the Canadians had any combat experience, but they had extensive training. In actual combat, however, the Canadians performed as well as the SS troops.

Where the SS did shine was in their fanaticism. There are many documented cases of the 12th SS murdering canadian prisoners in cold blood. On the other hand, it is true that they surrendered less than regular line unit. The Canadians fought the 12th SS from june to august, but only captured 206 prisoners from that unit.

In terms of CMBN, I see no reason to rate SS units higher than "regular", although they may merit a higher motivation rating.

[Erwin]

Re: The SS guy on the Arnhem Bridge trying to save his CO Grabner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Eberhard_Gr%C3%A4bner

[Aragorn2002]

On the other hand, it is true that they surrendered less than regular line unit. The Canadians fought the 12th SS from june to august, but only captured 206 prisoners from that unit.

The fact that the Canadians often shot their POW's, especially members of the Waffen-SS, might also have something to do with that...

[TrailApe]

It’s an interesting point about what is elite or what is not elite. It seems to me that the perceived ‘elite’ units are those that slightly stand out from the masses. Of course training and selection counts for a lot and it’s easy to agree that most of the airborne units of all participants were a bit special as they had extra training and were selected on their ability to pass the various courses they were put on.

But what about the units that were seen – and still are in retrospect – as elite, although they were run of the mill units with no extra training than anyone else, how do they get this elite label? There was a thread a couple of weeks back in which somebody listed their ‘Commonwealth Module’ elites and it went something like Canadians, Scots and Poles (and let’s not go down the what should BF call the next module debate ), now were they really elite or were they just a bit different from the bulk of the British Army which was mainly English battalions.

For example of the 84 or so plain infantry battalions that hit Gold, Juno and Sword, more than half were bog-standard English battalions from ‘unfashionable’ Regiments (as per the words of Elvis Costello “the boys from the Mersey and the Thames and the Tyne”). Are they not considered elite because they had nothing different about them?

Also, what is our American friends view of the Big Red 1? I’ve heard that they considered themselves elite, but did that translate into combat effectiveness?

And with respect to the number of SS prisoners taken by the Canadians, are we sure that’s a measure of SS fanaticism ? A quote from John Ellis’ book The Sharp End of War

‘Canadians stated: “When the Jerries come in with their hand up, shouting Kamerad, we just bowl them over with bursts of sten fire”

By the way, that’s not a pop at the Canadians, John Ellis reckons that unless surrendering in mass, the German solder had a 50/50 chance of being shot on the spot by any allied soldier.

[Medex]

Don't mess with the Canucks.

[Fetchez la Vache]

Frankly I'm amazed they manage to shoot anyone with a Sten.

Edit: Actually that reads a bit flippant, apologies. I'm shocked whenever I hear accounts of surrending soldiers being shot. For me, the most harrowing bit in Saving Private Ryan is when the GI's shoot the German prisoners after storming the Omaha beach defenses... although funnily enough not when Upham shoots the chap at the end.

[mjkerner]

user38, that's an excellent book. I loaned mine to my brother several years ago, and finally will get it back tomorrow (Mother's Day). Just in time to prep for the M-G module.

[TrailApe]

Actually that reads a bit flippant, apologies. I'm shocked whenever I hear accounts of surrending soldiers being shot. For me, the most harrowing bit in Saving Private Ryan is when the GI's shoot the German prisoners after storming the Omaha beach defenses... although funnily enough not when Upham shoots the chap at the end

Fetchez la Vache, it shouldn't really suprise us when you consider how tired, angry and frightned these lads must have been.

Here's another snippet from Mr Elliss' book (just to prove I've not got it in for our excellent friends from the North Of North America)

‘During the Battle of Alamein, Sergeant Carnduff (5th Seaforth Highlanders) was approached by a soldier in his company who said:

“Sergeant, I think you’re passing trenches with folk in them”. I asked him how he made that out and he said: “Well I’m positive something moved in the last slit we went by”.

So we went back and found a slit, and there was a man in the bottom of it with his head under a blanket. You could just see him and no more, but you made out that the blanket was shaking a wee bit. We hunted about on that line and found eight more, all the same. Well, the boys had been moaning about having to carry the big anti-tank grenades. So we got rid of them….

[Secondbrooks]

"SS - supermen or just mama's boys with lots of toys?"

...most likely this was discussed 1000 times in over 1000 differend WW2(game) forums.

Were they superman ?

No, but...

Were they mama's boys with lots of toys ?

No, but...

First, its important to note that the "elite" status of a unit does not mean that they were all superman.

In WW2 most "elite" units were meant to be elite from start on. They were well trained, got good Officers and NCO's and the best equipment.

Only a few units fought so well that they were considered as "elite" just by there combat performance.

So, divisions like the 1st SS Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler "must" be elite (take a look at the name).

Sure there combat performance was above average too, so they deserve this status.

But there were many ordinary wehrmacht divisions that fought as well as the best SS fomations did, they just not had those super cool insignia and uniforms...

Ok, the SS formations were more fanatic some will say, but many wehrmacht formations were as stubborn and willing to take heavy casualities.

The same goes for other armies too, for example the US 101st Airborne Division.

They were meant to be elite and fought well...but were they that much "better" then a ordinary Army division ?

The problem is how can you measure combat power ?

Just by looking at single battles, sure not...

By looking only on training and equipment, no...

There are so many factors that decide the outcome of a battle.

"Elite" formations like the Rangers or some Waffen-SS units could get a bad beating by ordinary divisions (look at the Battle of Cisterna).

A poorly planed attack will result in a disaster, even if elite unis attack.

Units without food and ammunition or with little experience and no cohesion are more likely to loose a fight or even surrender...whatever status they have or not have.

Best post in this thread if you ask me.

[sburke]

The fact that the Canadians often shot their POW's, especially members of the Waffen-SS, might also have something to do with that...

To be frank, I think there was a lot of that going around. There is some question as to whether US units during the landing had a more or less official policy of being prepared to not take prisoners. In Destination Normandy by GH Bennett, he discusses briefly the issue of treatment of POWs and suggests it was fairly routine on both sides to shoot prisoners. The regimental history of the 115th for example is quoted as saying "..while few prisoners taken by our troops reached the collecting cages".

Treatment of civilians however is another matter.