Flak, Panzerfaust, Units, DRM/Modules

[Kauz]

No it is not. Panzerfaust 60 is propelled by a 134g black powder charge. Projectile goes out the front, blast and heat out the back. There is no pulverized countermass. There is no second stage propellant. You do not want to be in an enclosed space when a 134g charge detonates.

Ok, it seems that in fact there is no countermass (have to take a better look later again).

If there would be a countermass you need instead of the 134g black powder 67g Black powder....

Ok...now you may not have a countermass (which would be still a problem for a guy behind)

But you have the problem of a hot gas jet and the double volume of the gas (a little less cause a part of it may follow the projectile)

Let us look to the energy TNT aquivalent of black powder (this is about 0,25).

The energy of the 134g goes 50% for the projectile and 50% backblast.

so the TNT aquivalent which get out of the rear tube and could harm someone is:

134g*0,5*0,25 = 16,75 g (about 15% of an egg handgrenade 39)

-The TNT dosis of a german Stick grenade 170g?, egg-handgrenade 112g.-

This was the Panzerfaust 60....

but at Panzerfaust 30 has then 11,875g ( 10,6% of egg handgreande 39 )

and Panzerfaust 30 k = 6,75g (= 6% of egg handgrenade 39 )

Conclusion:

The power of about 10% of a egg-nade went straight to the rear and fill the room with gases.

Sure....that is not very funny....But better 10% of a nade away from me into rear section than sitting outside of a house and getting spottet and raped by an aimbot Tank (like in video)!!!

In Combat mission 2 or 3 there was the option to fire at least the Panzerfausts from buildings with effect on moral.

But now no chance to do it again......

[Battlefront.com]

No it is not. Panzerfaust 60 is propelled by a 134g black powder charge. Projectile goes out the front, blast and heat out the back. There is no pulverized countermass. There is no second stage propellant. You do not want to be in an enclosed space when a 134g charge detonates.

Heh...yeah. There is a reason why nobody is using the same WW2 designs. All those years and big budgets into R&D weren't just to make a prettier looking launch tube

Steve

[stikkypixie]

Ok, it seems that in fact there is no countermass (have to take a better look later again).

If there would be a countermass you need instead of the 134g black powder 67g Black powder....

Ok...now you may not have a countermass (which would be still a problem for a guy behind)

But you have the problem of a hot gas jet and the double volume of the gas (a little less cause a part of it may follow the projectile)

Let us look to the energy TNT aquivalent of black powder (this is about 0,25).

The energy of the 134g goes 50% for the projectile and 50% backblast.

so the TNT aquivalent which get out of the rear tube and could harm someone is:

134g*0,5*0,25 = 16,75 g (about 15% of an egg handgrenade 39)

-The TNT dosis of a german Stick grenade 170g?, egg-handgrenade 112g.-

This was the Panzerfaust 60....

but at Panzerfaust 30 has then 11,875g ( 10,6% of egg handgreande 39 )

and Panzerfaust 30 k = 6,75g (= 6% of egg handgrenade 39 )

Conclusion:

The power of about 10% of a egg-nade went straight to the rear and fill the room with gases.

Sure....that is not very funny....But better 10% of a nade away from me into rear section than sitting outside of a house and getting spottet and raped by an aimbot Tank (like in video)!!!

In Combat mission 2 or 3 there was the option to fire at least the Panzerfausts from buildings with effect on moral.

But now no chance to do it again......

Dude, you have researched references telling you its a very very bad idea. Not just unpleasant, but near suicidal. They just feel that it's too rare to include in the game.

[Battlefront.com]

To be sure, if you were firing out of a a large, open room, like the nave of a church or something, I'm sure you would be OK. Given enough preparation time, it might also be possible to knock out interior walls to create enough backblast room. But in your typical residential room? Forget it.

Correct. I've said pretty much the same thing in the past... there could be some special circumstances in real life that would allow PFs to be fired inside. Heck, even Panzerschrecks. But that's not something we've had a chance to simulate correctly. Until then, as you say, it's best to leave it out completely instead of causing people to get the wrong idea about what these weapons could do.

Unfortunately, we didn't do this for CMx1 and now some people have apparently concluded that since CMx1 allowed it that it was realistic. We never base our simulation decisions on other wargames, not even our own. We look to the real world instead.

Steve

[Rokko]

AT rifles work just fine from within buildings. There. Happy now?

No. They aren't in CMBN anyways, are they?

What about the argument, that the AI probably won't handle this restriction well?

Or does it? I can't know, but I imagine the AI works pretty much the same way as in CMSF, and the image of a German squad packed with 4 Fausts placed in a building by the scenario designer watching helplessly as a Sherman advances closer and closer comes up in my mind.

[Kauz]

Sorry for repeating:

Conclusion:

The power of about 10% of a egg-nade went straight to the rear and fill the room with gases.

Sure....that is not very funny....But better 10% of a nade away from me into rear section than sitting outside of a house and getting spottet and raped by an aimbot Tank (like in video)!!!

In Combat mission 2 or 3 there was the option to fire at least the Panzerfausts from buildings with effect on moral.

But now no chance to do it again......

[YankeeDog]

Dude, enough with all the funky formatting. It's not like we're going to think, "oh, he must be right; he knows how to use the bold and font size tags."

[ClarkWGriswold]

No. They aren't in CMBN anyways, are they?

Yup!

Note the image of Anglen's weapons. The top is a rifle/grenade and the bottom is a bazooka. Note also that he's in the second story of an enclosed building. The caption (in Spanish) reads:

"Without a second thought, Anglen fires an antitank grenade from his rifle. The sound is spectacular".

[Rokko]

Hm ok, when you said "AT rifle" I thought you meant, ... well AT rifle and not AT Grenade.

[ClarkWGriswold]

Tomayto, tomahto

[ASL Veteran]

So is this thread about Panzerfausts or credit cards? I'm starting to get confused over here. :confused:

[ChrisND]

Dude, enough with all the funky formatting. It's not like we're going to think, "oh, he must be right; he knows how to use the bold and font size tags."

I see that formatting style from time to time, although usually it accompanies some crank breathlessly telling us how he has proved Einstein wrong on all counts, and without math!

[Chris69]

So is this thread about Panzerfausts or credit cards? I'm starting to get confused over here. :confused:

It's about CreditFausts. These handheld, disposable devices feature an ACR (Anti-Credit-Rating) warhead that can ruin your whole country's economy when used in closed spaces to purchase wargames.

[MikeyD]

People wanting to fire their Fausts and Schreks from within buildings ought to remember this is WWII. Everybody's firing big heavy-bullet rifles which, at Panzerfaust ranges, are guaranteed to pierce building walls like so much cardboard. I'm seeing building occupant casualties from small fire from 300m+. Actually, one of the unexpected frustrations of fighting with Paratroopers is their higher use of M1A6 carbines and subsequent reduced hole-punching ability.

[WineCape]

I see that formatting style from time to time, although usually it accompanies some crank breathlessly telling us how he has proved Einstein wrong on all counts, and without math!

That will also be the occupants of the Cesspool.

[Barrold]

I was going to buy a panzerfaust with a credit card but it put me over my limit...so I bought a pizza and some beer instead.

BFS5

[herr_oberst]

That will also be the occupants of the Cesspool.

Exsqueeze me?

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Exsqueeze me?

I advice taking the blue pill on this.

Trust me, better move on and pretend you did not see the glitch in the Matrix that is the Cesspool

[Macisle]

FYI, in case anyone is interested...

I'm on the ground in Old Mama Nihon. As of the late-nineties, credit cards were still very uncommon in Japan. Since then, they have made great inroads and are now much more common. Many people have them. However, they are still not universally accepted, so use remains not nearly as widespread as it is in the States.

Prepaid cards are also available here. Another growing trend is the use of cellphones that offer a credit card-like functionality. For example, you can scan a coupon with your cell and then use your cell itself instead of a cc to conduct the payment transaction. I believe most McDonald's here allow that (-never eat there, so not sure). Some vending machines, too. It's still far from universal, though.

[olap]

From the book on German Field fortifications, the panzershreck could only be fired from inside a building like a warehouse due to the backblast and toxic gases released byt he firing. You can see the article here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Vt20q0s2uqwC&pg=PA32&lpg=PA32&dq=panzerschreck+fired+from+inside+buildings?&source=bl&ots=vZbSxr0s9g&sig=7hL2fEUrZXDRsGsiquqQYFNPtrM&hl=en&ei=USq4TcWPAsrDgQfinOBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CFkQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Rune

Rune this is a very good book indeed. To my surprise I have found something on page 53, that might be interesting: "Snipers, anti-armour teams with Panzerfaust, and machine gunners were positioned in other buildings as well"

Although it does not say the Panzerfausts were fired from within the buildings, I would suspect they were.

Also Antony Beever writes in his book (Berlin: The Downfall 1945, Penguin Books, 2002, ISBN 0-670-88695-5 p.316-319), that Panzerfausts were fired at Russian tanks from cellar windows.

I'm sure the game will be enjoyable without the ability to fire Panzerfaust from within a building. However if the main goal is to simulate real life it would be wiser to make some more research about the issue, as in the later modules combat in built in areas will be more common (Market Garden).

[GhostRider3/3]

Hi, welcome to the forum.

First off though, may I beg you to ease up on the formatting cacophony? It does your post no favours.

On the inclusion of light AA guns, I kinda agree. They really ought to have been included if only in the ground role. Possibly it is an animation issue? THey would, I assume, require different animations then are currently being used. One can only hope that when BFC get round to doing them they will do them justice.

Do disagree on the pintle mounted MG42. The Germans do not seem to have used them very much. So I don't mind their absence much. I expect British armour to not have them either.

On the indoor use of man portable anti tank weapons, you are barking up the wrong tree. With the exception of the PIAT, it was BAD to use them indoor. And when I say bad, potentially fatal. Your modern Panzerfaust 3 you linked to is indeed modern and has design features to counter act these effects. But BFC are probably better of disallowing their use. Short of a full simulation dealing with rapidly expanding gasses there is no single accurate way to do it.

On the video of the in use game, Tyrspawn himself make it very clear it was his fault, not the AI. He gave a poorly conceived order and it was faithfully executed by the AI with the expected results.

Oh, and overpowered Sherman? You may want to back that statement up. We have had several lengthy discussions on its strengths and weaknesses.

On the Tiger II:

There weren't low numbers of them. There were NO King Tigers opposite the Americans at this time. They hardly saw Ye Olde Tiger I! BFC's chief motivation in including the Tiger I was to prevent a riot.

I'm sure that with the appearance of the Brits, we will see the King Tiger.

Modules: Look in to the CMSF modules for an idea what to expect in regards to price and amount of features. Currently the full game will included the fighting in the American sector. Brits, SS and various Paras will be for the 1st module. Forces for Market Garden in the second module, and odd bits of remaining equipment in a 3rd module.

Sounds fair to me.

DRM:

That is a discussion that has come and gone. DRM is perceived, not unjustly imho, as necessary. BFC have chosen protection that won't be too much of a hassle so I am not worried on that score. Not every DRM is Starforce/SecuRom!

There are other options then credit card payment. Have you tried PayPal?

Ahh not sure your Tiger II data is correct aboout not being near any American positions. The Panzer Lehr had the 316. Funklenk-Panzerkompanie near the St. Lo area. Equipped with some Tiger II's. There is a picture of a Tigger II with porsche turret near Chateaudun, France That was attached at some point to Panzer Lehr. There are 2 different angle pictures that I know of, of the same tank #11.

Someone quoted from this source http://fprado.com/armorsite/tigers-02.htm which is incorrect, as pictures do not lie. There was a TiggerII #11 assigned to the 316th Panzer Lehr. Just making sure that the info is correct.

[olap]

It's not a manual, it's a study on how the German prepared there defences. It says that firing from inside buildings is not possible (it does not say not allowed, but not POSSIBLE) unless it was "a very large room, such as a warehouse, with open windows and doors" and the same goes for the Panzerschreck.

Do you have any other sources by any chance? I could not read the first book you linked?

The Longest Battle: September 1944-February 1945: From Aachen to the Roer and Across on page 115:

"..two Germans appeared in the window, one with a rifle, and one with a panzerfaust. They both fired."

[stikkypixie]

The Longest Battle: September 1944-February 1945: From Aachen to the Roer and Across on page 115:

"..two Germans appeared in the window, one with a rifle, and one with a panzerfaust. They both fired."

But how large was the room (or how well prepared), because that is the determining factor? I also wonder how this would work in the game? Allow firing PF only from some buildings? Randomly allow firing? Always allow firing but randomly have some guys die because of they misjudge the size of the room?

[olap]

It wasn't mentioned how large the room was.

I guess a solution might be a small "explosion" like effect, when firing from inside a house with a Panzerfaust, which might result in injury. I don't think it is a show stopper in CM:BN, but in future modules like Market Garden it will be more important.

[stikkypixie]

I don't think it's a show stopper either, although I still get the feeling that firing from inside a typical building was more of rare occurence. In CM:BN you can split off AT teams, so I guess that a compromise I can live with .