Flak, Panzerfaust, Units, DRM/Modules

[sburke]

This isn´t a part of the general discussion, but "Elmar Bijlsma" already mentioned it.

In America every 16 year old teen get his credit card. About 80% of your students have credit card.

In Germany only about 20% of all people have use credit cards.

BTW.: "Your" mentality respectively your credit liabilities are a the most important cause for the bank crisis and following the world economy crisis.

Okay decent point and I'll accept some heat for that too, yes we are used to CC and I should know better. My wife is Japanese and they don't use credit cards either. As to whether that is the cause of the world economic crisis, that I would differ with, but this isn't the place for that discussion.

[Rokko]

You may also want to watch this at 8:00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSiV4JEeLug&feature=related

(I know its just a movie)

But I think it should be allowed to fire AT assets from inside buildings, since I assume the TacAI is just not capable of handling it well. It would be ok if the AI would automatically send one guy with a PF to the house's door and fire it if possible. The way its now I suppose you'd have to split your squad in the building, send the element with the AT weapon to the tile in front of the building, wait till they finish setting up in that tile (like in CMSF), let the aim at the tank (which is probably not more than 30m away!) and then send them back into the building (imagine doing all this in WeGO). Somehow I think they would get shoot up in the first seconds...

[WineCape]

Also you're making suggestion on how to 'improve' the game without ever having touched. it. Wait a few weeks, play the demo, then demand your must-have improvements.

Sums up all the answers to the OP's questions. And even then, once played, quoting a single reference might not convince Battlefront to put it in. Nor multiple (valid) references thereof if Battlefront feels that they either do not have time, or the inclination, to put it in the game due to various, already mentioned reasons on this forum and elsewhere.

Battlefront decided not to allow 'shrecks/'zooks to fire from inside Normandy buildings. Their research shows it was not common to do so. Being an uncommon occurrence, and given BFC valid reasons why even this uncommon occurrence should not be simulated, it will not change for CMBN. Might it change for future models and their games? Maybe.

[Barkhorn1x]

This wasn´t an "attack" this was a fact!

And i mentioned this fact after Barkhorn try to tell me that my behaviour (no credit card using) isn´t normal and insinuate that credit-card using is a matter of course / the correct way of paying.

Dude...calm down. I was actually commenting on your yearing for the "good old days" and how ironic that was considering that PC games were not available way back when.

Having stated that, I agree that this is no place for a socio-ecoonomic discussion.

[rune]

Caution was to be paid to the back-blast of the weapon, it created an explosion blast of two to three meters ( 6.5 - 10 ft.) behind the tube. Therefore on many Panzerfausts, especially the early Panzerfaust 30 m, a warning in large red letters printed on the upper rear part of the tube advised to stay clear: Achtung! Feuerstrahl! ("Beware ! Fire Jet !"; see pic. above of four Panzerfaust 30 in delivery crate).

Sometimes other variations of this warning were stenciled on the upper rear. But the back-blast wasn't only dangerous to bystanders: the rear of the firing soldier had to be free of obstacles for at least 3 m (10 ft.), otherwise heavy burns on the back of the firing soldier would result. Officially the rear of the gunner had to be free for 10m for safety reasons and the back-blast was reported as lethal to a range of 3m behind the tube. Mostly the fiery back-blast, but also the atmospheric pressure and the relative hazardousness of the blast's smoke put heavy restrictions on indoor use; this holds true even more for the Panzerschreck.

Despite the seemingly easy usage and the fact that simple usage instructions were printed onto each weapon, many accidents happened because of wrong handling of often ill-trained personnel, sometimes also because of material defects of the weapons themselves.

Although officially a single-use throw-away weapon, the used tubes of the all the Panzerfaust weapons were usually collected and returned for rearmament at the factory.

Rune

[WineCape]

As much as it pains me to say that in public, I have to say that Rune is absolutely correct.

[Kauz]

Nobody said anything about the secure distance.

Sure you have to have one...but this you usually have in a room.

And this distance is especially for people behind the Faust.

So simple thing:

go into room, look if nobody is behind you, look if there is no object directly 1-3 meters behind you, aim on target ...shoot...

And I would do like this if a tank drive just next to me in the street!!!!

The principle of the metal pulver counter mass is the same at Panzerfaust 3 and Panzerfaust 60.

The modern Panzerfaust 3 is supposed to shoot out of rooms with minimum 12 squaremeters.

This is a small room and should be a usual condition in houses.

So for this weapon it is the norm to use for ambushes from houses.

It would make no sense to exclude this option.

[Kauz]

BTW.:

Is this Rune thing a running gag?

[Cymru]

That is true. (I say this as someone rised in GDR).

I never take credit. Only the money I have earned, I can spent. End of story.

While this seems to getting off topic: does Germany not have prepaid credit cards? These allow the convenience of a credit card but do not allow you to purchase beyond the amount you have put into it.

[Earl Grey]

3m is A LOT. Go into your living room, take a measuring tape and see if you get 3m behind you when standing at one of your windows. I wouldn't - because there's furniture in the way. Which I assume to be modelled in CMBN as well (just in an abstracted manner). And it's just not plausible to assume that every building an AT team might or might not enter is completely free of furniture, so there goes your free space.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

You may also want to watch this at 8:00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSiV4JEeLug&feature=related

(I know its just a movie)

Anyone able to ID those "Shermans"?

Anyway, and I repeat myself, it isn't in question if it could be done. It is very much in question how frequent and safe it was. And all the evidence points to it being a very risky proposition to fire one indoors. It is a generally acknowledged downside and the reason why these days similar weapons have a liquid or other substance incorporated in the device to dampen this effect. They would not have gone though the trouble if it wasn't an issue.

But I think it should be allowed to fire AT assets from inside buildings, since I assume the TacAI is just not capable of handling it well. It would be ok if the AI would automatically send one guy with a PF to the house's door and fire it if possible. The way its now I suppose you'd have to split your squad in the building, send the element with the AT weapon to the tile in front of the building, wait till they finish setting up in that tile (like in CMSF), let the aim at the tank (which is probably not more than 30m away!) and then send them back into the building (imagine doing all this in WeGO). Somehow I think they would get shoot up in the first seconds...

Now there you have hit upon a valid point. How will the AI cope with the limitation? Though usually I would expect the AI to be on the defensive and 'faust users placed by the designer where they ought to be. But still, an issue worth considering. Personally, I still prefer realistic weapon behaviour over AI considerations.

[dan/california]

I would also speculate that the average room in France and Germany in the forties was probably a wee bit tighter than today. Certainly far tighter than the American average one then or now. The penalty for getting it wrong is rather severe too, being ejected from ones hiding spot in a ball of flame is a rather poor tactical decision. Besides, isn't this what roofs are for.

Perhaps when they get around to modeling fire, for all the other reasons it needs to be in, they can include a decent work around. To whit there is a very high chance of sending your hiding place up in flames. This would be a good compromise in terms of the tactical dilemma, even if it is a total fudge of the actual physics.

[ASL Veteran]

I actually recently read a first hand account of a guy who witnessed a grenadier fire a Panzerfaust from a foxhole and kill himself with the backblast because the firer didn't raise the back end of the tube above the rim of the foxhole. If it's necessary I can dig it out, but it was a member of the Hitler Jugend fighting around Caen.

[WineCape]

Sir, with all respect and no slight intended: What part of the word, that it was generally 'uncommon' for such usage, did you not understand?

Did it occur? Yes. Did it occur regularly? No. Was it unusual? Yes. Was it rare? Yes. This, btw, implies it to be uncommon. And if it is uncommon, it will not be necessarily simulated/abstracted. More so give BFC's reasons that the back-blast danger was, given generally non-warehouse sized house rooms in Normandy, a valid issue.

Could you lobby that it might be used in very large room where back-blast will, in all probability, not be an issue? Yes. Will BFC change this then for large rooms? No. Why not? Too late, as there are other, more pressing last-minute issues before the game is about to be released. Will BFC look at this in the future, specifically for very large rooms? Maybe. It depends on research, plus whether the JAR actually feels like re-programming this issue.

[Rokko]

Anyone able to ID those "Shermans"?

I believe they were made of wood and placed on trucks then or were pulled around by wires. The makers didn't have access to actual American tanks back then. I actually thought they looked somewhat like oversized Stuarts, but I am in no way an expert on American armor.

[sawomi]

While this seems to getting off topic: does Germany not have prepaid credit cards? These allow the convenience of a credit card but do not allow you to purchase beyond the amount you have put into it.

Don't know. Never have understood 'Money' in the first place.

Basic pinciple: What I owe, I can spent. And that is it. -> No ...but... !!!!

The rest is Jude. Heil Schickelgruber etc.

[stikkypixie]

I have a credit card, but I never spent more than I have. Having a CC does not automatically equate debt. Anyway back to topic, from the CMSF forum it seems that firing modern AT weapons from inside close rooms is a bad (although not necessarily a lethal) idea. Not just because of the backblast but also because of the over pressure it creates. So it would seem logical that it was not possible or at least a bad idea for WW2 weapons. I mean, why else would they invent "soft launch" if it was not necessary. Here is another researched link that says that PzF cannot be fired from rooms. Note that is not anecdotal evidence.

[akd]

The principle of the metal pulver counter mass is the same at Panzerfaust 3 and Panzerfaust 60.

.

No it is not. Panzerfaust 60 is propelled by a 134g black powder charge. Projectile goes out the front, blast and heat out the back. There is no pulverized countermass. There is no second stage propellant. You do not want to be in an enclosed space when a 134g charge detonates.

[Dadekster88]

I've been to Europe to include France, Germany, Holland etc and I can say that most of the older homes there are built MUCH more differently than modern homes are when it comes to space considerations. They weren't worried about what wall to hang that 62" LCD TV tbh back then. Space is at a premium over there from what I have seen so finding a room big enough to fire one of those things over there was probably not very common which would lead to what BFC has decided to make the decision on. As others have said could and did it happen, more than likely. If we are allowed to fire one out of every building in the game if we are given the chance...I'm gonna say yes, never mind the fact how uncommon it was. I think BF made the right decision given what resources they had. Whining about it isn't going to change their minds either but go ahead...reading how credit cards are gonna lead to WW3 is a decent way to pass time till game release.

[poesel]

While this seems to getting off topic: does Germany not have prepaid credit cards? These allow the convenience of a credit card but do not allow you to purchase beyond the amount you have put into it.

Nearly the only kind of credit card used here in Germany is the one that is directly connected to your bank account (I have never seen anything else). You pay next month. So it is not used as a CREDIT card as such. If you want a credit here, you go directly to a bank.

The most common medium to pay is the EC-card which is directly connected to your bank account.

Usually there are limits on both cards (money per month). I've also never seen a prepaid credit card.

[Blackcat]

Poesel71,

I thnk we might have some language problems going on. In Britain and, I think the USA, the term credit card is used as shorthand for any sort of payment card.

We have debit cards, in which the money is taken straight from ones bank account at the time, credit cards with which one has a credit limit and one must only pay back a minimum amount each month, charge cards which are not conected to one's bank account but which must be paid off in full when the bill comes in and finally pre-paid cards which one "loads" with an amount of money. All of these are commonly called credit cards and any of whch BF will accept.

So I thnk much of the hoo-ha on this thread is really one of misunderstanding and translation.

[sburke]

Poesel71,

I thnk we might have some language problems going on. In Britain and, I think the USA, the term credit card is used as shorthand for any sort of payment card.

We have debit cards, in which the money is taken straight from ones bank account at the time, credit cards with which one has a credit limit and one must only pay back a minimum amount each month, charge cards which are not conected to one's bank account but which must be paid off in full when the bill comes in and finally pre-paid cards which one "loads" with an amount of money. All of these are commonly called credit cards and any of whch BF will accept.

So I thnk much of the hoo-ha on this thread is really one of misunderstanding and translation.

probably - The "Credit card" I used would normally be properly called a debit card as it is tied directly to my checking account. However it is treated for all intents and purposes as a visa card. However I have to have the money in my account for it to be accepted. I think can safely say my using it will not create a world economic meltdown.

[poesel]

Blackcat,

thanks for the info. I did know the differences but didn't know the terms to be used. So in short: debit cards exist here and are most commonly used (called: EC-cards). Credit cards do also exist but work differently (as a delayed debit card). Charge and prepaid do not exist.

Unfortunatly BFC does not accept EC-cards (AFAIK). IIRC I paid by Paypal

[YankeeDog]

No it is not. Panzerfaust 60 is propelled by a 134g black powder charge. Projectile goes out the front, blast and heat out the back. There is no pulverized countermass. There is no second stage propellant. You do not want to be in an enclosed space when a 134g charge detonates.

Yikes. Yeah, you definitely don't want to be in the same room when a 100+g black powder charge goes off. I don't care if there's a tube directing most of the blast away from you; the smoke and fume alone will probably knock you out. That's a lot of bang.

To be sure, if you were firing out of a a large, open room, like the nave of a church or something, I'm sure you would be OK. Given enough preparation time, it might also be possible to knock out interior walls to create enough backblast room. But in your typical residential room? Forget it.

Perhaps, at some point, BFC could create an "open" building type, representing warehouses and the like, and allow backblast weapons to fire from these specific buildings. Until then, I think the present prohibition is the most reasonable solution. Building interiors are mostly abstracted right now, so the game can't track specifically where in a building the large rooms would be.

[ClarkWGriswold]

But I think it should be allowed to fire AT assets from inside buildings, since I assume the TacAI is just not capable of handling it well.

AT rifles work just fine from within buildings. There. Happy now?