Flak, Panzerfaust, Units, DRM/Modules

[Magpie_Oz]

Why would it be more important in Market Garden?

If you are talking about the street fighting in Arnhem then it wouldn't matter would it as t\it would be the para's using the PIAT which has no back blast.

Of course then elevation becomes a problem because you cannot aim the PIAT "downhill" as the bomb will fall out.

[JonS]

But how large was the room (or how well prepared), because that is the determining factor?

Also, what was the effect on the firers?

[olap]

Why would it be more important in Market Garden?

If you are talking about the street fighting in Arnhem then it wouldn't matter would it as t\it would be the para's using the PIAT which has no back blast.

Of course then elevation becomes a problem because you cannot aim the PIAT "downhill" as the bomb will fall out.

Panzerfausts were not only used against tanks, but buildings as well. The XXX. Corps had to fight its way through several villages and towns.

As far as I know the PIAT projectile is fixed by a twin flange on the face of the spigot plate during loading, didn't know it falls out.

[LemoN]

All I can say is that large building blocks built between 1890 and 1950 here in Austria have rather large rooms (The house I'm living in was completed in 1936, has 60cm thick outer walls made of brick with no room smaller than 4x4m and very high ceilings). Of course, small houses in the countryside are a different thing.

What I'd vouch for would be the ability to fire handheld AT weapons from large buildings and sheds.

[ASL Veteran]

The Longest Battle: September 1944-February 1945: From Aachen to the Roer and Across on page 115:

"..two Germans appeared in the window, one with a rifle, and one with a panzerfaust. They both fired."

...two Germans appeared in the window, one with a credit card, and one with a panzerfaust. :eek:

[Lt Belenko]

Why would it be more important in Market Garden?

If you are talking about the street fighting in Arnhem then it wouldn't matter would it as t\it would be the para's using the PIAT which has no back blast.

Of course then elevation becomes a problem because you cannot aim the PIAT "downhill" as the bomb will fall out.

Serious design flaw if the bomb falls out. Imagine moving to a new location taking some rifle fire, diving for the ditch, and the bomb fell out.

"Fire the bloody thing, he's in range."

"Can't do it sir, the ruddy bomb fell out back there on the road."

If you lived thru it, your next vacation would be to visit a PIAT factory, find the nearest design engineer and relocate his gonads.

[usgubgub]

Kauz, you are clearly well researched but you are missing the main point which a few other posters and the forum administrator have made several times now:

1) panzerfausts may indeed have been fired from inside buildings on occasion, but on balance the research at Battlefront has suggested this was not typical, so they decided to disallow it in the new, more realistic CMBN game.

2) Battlefront produce extremely well put together tactical combat simulations. Their dedication to our hobby is beyond question. So is the work that goes into the research on which the simulations are based. However, they can not produce bespoke games to satisfy all the whims and special wishes of each one of us. I, for one, would prefer to play games based in the Italian and north African theaters, a much bigger "dissonance" than whether 'fausts could be fired from buildings or not.

A Mediterranean theaters module or mod may or may not happen, but I am still glad that I can play North West Europe and eventually Eastern Front scenarios and campaigns.

These guys work very hard to bring us these amusements, they have to do it on a commercial basis and thay have to produce playable and enjoyable games for the whole community of their customers, which by and large they do. This gives them the prerogative to make these design decisions. If you don't like it, buy another game that does what their design does plus allows your particular preference.

I also agree with the comments about your style of posting: nobody else does that, you are a new poster, so what gives you the right to post in such a self-regarding way? A little humility is in order here, IMHO.

Lastly, I do not consider that the inability to fire these weapons from within buildings makes them useless. One simply has to think of alternative ways to deploy them in abush.

In a built up area, you can deploy them between buildings to fire on oncoming armor at very short range. They can use hedges, walls and other vegetation for concealment, too. They can be dug in outside, when the option of foxholes is available.

In combat, if a squad in a building is being threatened by an enemy armored vehicle and can't use its 'fausts to knock it out, it can pop smoke and retreat to a better position, setting up a more favourable 'faust ambush in a location that allows it.

If one is setting up a defense scheme, these considerations must be part of it, otherwise one ends up using CMBO as just anther RTS where what counts is thoughtless cliking and adrenaline fuelled reactive play. This was a bit how the video AAR felt at times, particularly in connection with the panzerschreck team episode that you refer to ( no offense intended to the author, he was just trying to show us how the game works, which he accomplished splendidly, and he admitted to being new to the game).

There will always be exceptions in real world situations: one could argue that hunting tanks with such short range weapons was an iffy business in any event, and that, from a tactical point of view, firing at a tank from within a building may result in a tank kill as well as the loss of the 'faust team, which is a better result than losing the team but not killing the tank.

I am sure in many combat situations involving fanatic troops this must have happened, but this module does not include SS, just dog-end to elite Wehrmacht.

I do not however consider this realistic if the firing location contains more troops than just a tank hunting team of two men, the right thing to do here is to detach the AT team and evacuate the other elements under cover of smoke.

So, calm down and eventually enjoy a game which I am sure will be unparalleled when it comes out and will eventually get even better.

As for credit cards and all that, I agree that you were provoked, albeit very slightly. We Europeans have our customs and habits with regards to credit, Americans are different, I do not believe one way or the other is inherently better or superior. Our hosts here are Americans. You could have answered the slight provocation better, without insulting a whole country wholesale and oversimplifying a very complex subject.

Ultimately, this is a site about wargaming, so what the causes of the credit crisis have to do with this escapes me.

[WineCape]

The energy spend gnashing teeth on a decision that has already been made (non-firing of certain AT weapons from any building for CMBN) can be better spend on lobbying, with room-firing research, for Battlefront to abstract certain size buildings less/simulate them to a higher degree, for their future games/modules so that 'shrecks etc. can then be (uncommonly) fired from those larger buildings, where applicable.

Together with this, ideas can be volunteered how to implement this via the game engine programming, say for example: no firing of such a specific weapon if there is a squad bigger then a 2-man size unit already inside a specific size room etc. etc.

Your idea(s) and suggestion(s) might not work for the programmers, but Charles/Steve et al might hit a light bulb moment given your initial ideas for future releases, given constructive input in trying to abstract/simulate some uncommon occurrences.

Even then, your workable idea might be shot down, not for want of merit, but for want of time and/or priority listing as BFC is not EA with 100 programmers on payroll. If this occurs, accept it. Frankly, we are blessed that Steve regularly interacts and at least he will tell you:

(a) Good idea, but no time;

( Good idea, other ideas are prioritized above it in the wish list;

© Good idea, cant make it work effectively yet;

(d) Good idea, will investigate for future modules/games given solid research;

(e) Good idea, but not going to happen, as BFC needs a holiday;

(f) Bad Idea, too rare/uncommon to bother simulating/abstracting at all.

Frankly, I'm disappointed there is no cowbell in CMBN.

[poesel]

Isn't there a contemporary manual for a Schreck/Faust/Bazooka that explains when a space is big enough to use the weapon in? Hasn't military not rules for everything?

[Chris69]

This guy has scans of the leaflets. No special mention of the size of the rooms, just the 3m lethality warning and 10m clearance behind the shooter stuff. It is also noted that failure to comply will bear the risk of "scorching your jacket".

http://sites.google.com/site/ketilsvendsen/panzerfaust

There's also a formula for explosive overpressure available from wikipedia. If you're particularly bored, you can enter more or less wild guesses of explosive mass (Kauz had a ballpark figure there, if I'm not mistaken) and room sizes and see for yourself just how unhealthy shooting one of those things might have been.

Another thing I found is the FM 90-10 (US Army MOUT-manual) with a section about AT assets. While this does not help much in the PzF debate, it certainly shows that more modern launchers and recoilless guns can't be just used anywhere as well.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/90-10/90-10apb.htm

[Battlefront.com]

I just lost a Sherman in a built up area to a Panzerfaust not positioned in a building. I don't even know where the bloody thing came from. Speaking on behalf of my burned up crew... we're not impressed by the argument that Panzerfausts are useless in built up areas.

Steve

[dan/california]

This guy has scans of the leaflets. No special mention of the size of the rooms, just the 3m lethality warning and 10m clearance behind the shooter stuff. It is also noted that failure to comply will bear the risk of "scorching your jacket".

http://sites.google.com/site/ketilsvendsen/panzerfaust

Ten meter clearance behind the user eliminates virtually all normal rooms, thats 30 feet +. And to repeat something I sad earlier, that is what roofs are for.

[poesel]

Just a minor addition: the leaflet mentions shooting the Faust from a foxhole or trench. Theres no mention of shooting from buildings.

[bump]

Well, can fausts and shrecks and zooks fire from warehouse sized buildings in the game?

[LemoN]

Ten meter clearance behind the user eliminates virtually all normal rooms, thats 30 feet +. And to repeat something I sad earlier, that is what roofs are for.

The 10m clearance is for persons.

"Beim Abschuß tritt am Rohrende ein Feuerstrahl heraus. Paß also auf daß auf 10m niemand hinter Dir steht. Der Feuerstrahl muß auch nach möglichkeit über den Rand Deiner Schützenloches weggehen. Sonst senst Du Dir den Rock an."

Translated this means:

"A backblast will come out of the end of the tube when fired. So watch out that there's nobody closer than 10m behind you! The backblast should, if possible, be directed over the top of your foxhole. Else you'll scorch your uniform."

It's written in very simple German, so I translated it to rather simple English.

It's rather interesting that not one single Panzerfaust manual is actually talking about the dangers of firing it from inside a building. There's a lot of notes about the lethality of the backblast to bystanders, but not once does it say anything about confined spaces, except of scorching your uniform if you direct the backblast into your foxhole.

[olap]

Does anyone have this book?

Panzerfaust: And Other German Infantry Anti-Tank Weapons (Schiffer Military Aviation History)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/search?index=books&linkCode=qs&keywords=0887406726

It might have the answers for a few questions.

[stikkypixie]

This site had a lot of PF info and again, heavy restrictions on indoor use due to backblasts, pressure and hazardous gasses.

[YankeeDog]

It's rather interesting that not one single Panzerfaust manual is actually talking about the dangers of firing it from inside a building. There's a lot of notes about the lethality of the backblast to bystanders, but not once does it say anything about confined spaces, except of scorching your uniform if you direct the backblast into your foxhole.

The training manual for the U.S. Bazooka (FM 23-30, available here: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref/FM/) Doesn't specifically mention anything about firing the bazooka in confined spaces, either. But I really doubt it's a good idea...

[Lt Belenko]

I just lost a Sherman in a built up area to a Panzerfaust not positioned in a building. I don't even know where the bloody thing came from. Speaking on behalf of my burned up crew... we're not impressed by the argument that Panzerfausts are useless in built up areas.

Steve

We only get to read about it.

[Steiner14]

That is true. (I say this as someone rised in GDR).

I never take credit. Only the money I have earned, I can spent. End of story.

Gold is the money of kings.

Silver is the money of gentlemen.

Barter is the money of peasants.

But debt is the money of slaves.

[poesel]

You know what happens when all debt is paid for? All money has vanished. You don't want that to happen, do you?

Also: when I read up about the Panzerfaust I noticed it was developed by one 'Dr. Langweiler'. This translates nicely to 'Dr. Bore' or 'Dr. Deadhead' - both IMHO fitting translations.

[Wicky]

Could Mythbusters be enlisted to definitively answer the Panzerfaust question...

http://community.discovery.com/eve/forums/a/frm/f/9741919888

[sburke]

Could Mythbusters be enlisted to definitively answer the Panzerfaust question...

http://community.discovery.com/eve/forums/a/frm/f/9741919888

rotflmao! yeah get Buster to try it!

[RogCBrand]

rotflmao! yeah get Buster to try it!

Buster is going to be smoldering!

[olap]

A couple of years ago I've been to the Imperial War Museum in Duxford, which is a great place to visit, lots of planes and tanks. There are a few dioramas as well, one of them includes a T-34/85 an 88, and guess what, a building with a German guy with a Panzerfaust in his hands.

http://www.warmuseums.nl/gal/023gal.htm

And yes, there is no roof on the building, so it doesn't prove that the thing can be fired from a room. I just found it interesting. There was also a text describing, that the Germans used to take out the tanks from above, as the armor was weaker on the top.