Bridges

[Migo441]

Steve says:

There's a famous picture from the Eastern Front of three halftracks (8 ton IIRC) linked together to haul one Tiger around.

This one? (Deutsches Bundesarchiv, Bild 101I-022-2926-11A)

Looks like 2 SdKfz. 9. Info on wikipedia identifies the Tiger as belonging to Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503, July 1943, near Merefa, Ukraine.

[GhostRider3/3]

Here is another rare Tiger Picture.. Late models in Normady, probably East of the Caen area. As you can see the Hill is sort of large but deviod of many trees.

[gunnersman]

I stagger my vehicles when they are in column just in case one of them gets knocked out or immobilized it is not completely blocking the road.

[scottie]

I'd hate that to turn into gamey blocking tactics with vehicles.

hmm, agree that is a worry. Will see how it pans out.

[Chainsaw]

there is human made bridges in CMSF and I have seen bridges KO by scenario designer intentionally but I have never had a problem with bridge getting blocked by my human opponents or AI for that matter. just because there is a chance that you can do something gamey that doesn't mean it will happen. Because thinking like that you can turn almost this entire game engine to a anti-cheat tool and nothing else.

[Michael Emrys]

I don't see it as a cheat. I agree with MikeyD that it is a valid tactic. Granted it could be a fast way to end a game, but it should be up to the scenario designer to provide the other player with a way to achieve his objective.

Michael

[GhostRider3/3]

Well I must admit I really did not play any bridge battles in CMSF, but I did quite a few in CMx1 If it was a meeting engagment or the AI had to traverse the bridge, they would seriously Cluster around the bridge and get anhialated... I would assume the AI programming for going thru Choke points wether its a bridge or Ravine etc.

[Wicky]

Also if you can put AT and AP mines on a bridge that would scupper that as a crossing point. As an alternative in CM1 there was in the editor the ability to make water ways fordable to vehicles and troops, is this an feature in CM-BN?

[umlaut]

As an alternative in CM1 there was in the editor the ability to make water ways fordable to vehicles and troops, is this an feature in CM-BN?

No. It´s been scrapped for economic reasons: It wasn´t affordable

(sorry, couldn´t resist)

[Battlefront.com]

Let's separate the two issues here:

1. Realism

2. Playability

We must always first consider the first point before the second. After all, we're not a brainless RTS game, right?

It is entirely realistic for bridges to be tactically unavailable for one side or both. Either from the start of a battle or at some point during. I don't think anybody here would disagree with this broad statement, right? Right So the next thing to consider is if specific methods of blocking access to a bridge are historically valid. There are four:

1. Deliberate blockage using things like steel girders or heaps of rubble.

2. Accidental blockage such as a wrecked vehicle.

3. Obvious denial in the form of mines or other booby traps.

4. Compromised structural integrity (full or partial).

Now, all four of these things can happen to degrees. All four of them can be overcome by engineers (at the least) given enough time, resources, and most importantly opportunity. But within the scope of CM's battle times (which we have admittedly extended by customer request to exceed what the game is really setup for) most of the time engineers would not be capable of making the bridge passable.

OK, so what about playability? Well, this gets into a really messy argument that we've been in many times over the past 12 years. There's a hundred different things that can happen which make a particular battle "unbalanced" or "unwindable". Sometimes this is complete bunk (i.e. the person complaining isn't a skilled player), sometimes it is simply crying fowl when there is no fowl ("hey, this QB is an open map and he picked King Tigers and I picked M20 armored cars... this game is broken!"), and other times it is just lady luck deciding to favor one side over the other ("I lost 4 tanks to his 1 despite having the drop on him").

What I'm getting at is simply because a blocked bridge might effectively kill a battle, that doesn't mean there is a problem that is need of a fix.

Personally, I think any map which uses bridges needs to be designed quite carefully. Here are some of my own personal tips:

1. Don't make the Victory Conditions unobtainable if a bridge becomes impassible. Put in a ford, another bridge, loop the water around the map differently, etc. so that the bridge/s become tactical concerns instead of operational impossibilities.

2. Don't give the defender the ability to block it with things like mines, obstacles, bunkers, etc. This can easily be avoided by tailoring the player's units or restricting Setup Zone behavior around the bridge.

Following concepts like this people can have bridges be a positive, even if frustrating (in a good way), part of the game without it being a negative experience for either player.

Steve

[Barkhorn1x]

Following concepts like this people can have bridges be a positive, even if frustrating (in a good way), part of the game without it being a negative experience for either player.

Steve

Now that's some level headed advice right there. But...what the hell kind of fun is that??

FUN is designing a scenarion giving your opponent uber vehicles while you have (owes noes) peashooters - and then putting a bridge in the middle of the battlefield that you BLOW just as he is about to cross!!!

Imagine the look on his face? Now that is fun.

[Lt Belenko]

I remember reading an article in the Avalon Hill magazine "The General" about Panzer Blitz scenario 10-Kursk.

This battle had the 3 boards lined up end to end. There was a small Russian blocking force on the 1st map, an empty map, followed by a tank force on the final board. The scenario was originally designed with a block (X) as part of the Russian blocking force.

Placing it at a point on the road that passed thru the trees (green lines), would basically make the game unwinnable for the Germans just by forcing them to climb a hill. Remember how climbing a hill was next to impossible in that game.

The scenario was redesigned without the X on the OOB cards - and made the battle more playable. Check your PBlitz Scenario cards if you have the X you have a first printing.

Bottomline: An improperly designed scenario or map can make a battle no fun at all.

[GhostRider3/3]

Now that's some level headed advice right there. But...what the hell kind of fun is that??

FUN is designing a scenarion giving your opponent uber vehicles while you have (owes noes) peashooters - and then putting a bridge in the middle of the battlefield that you BLOW just as he is about to cross!!!

Imagine the look on his face? Now that is fun.

So basically do not design scenerios around the Ninjmegen Bridge.. or do...

I actually can not wait to redesign Arnhem... if Possible.

Question for Steve.

Will there be different bridges available, there were only I believe 2 in CMx1?

Will you make Heavy Stone, Wood bridges, Medium and Pedestrian Bridges, and of course Large Heavy Bridges like the one attached.

[ChrisND]

Edit.

Ten word limit.

[Battlefront.com]

There are a variety of bridges in the game. Unlike CMx1 these allow passage of different types of units depending on their weight class. We have three types:

Foot only

Normal

Heavy

We have different lengths and widths, as well as styles (wood, stone, and steel).

Steve

[JonS]

At the tactical level this wasn't the case and If a scenario is designed around a player capturing a limited number of crossing points across a river, his opponent can end the game quickly by simply blocking the bridge.

Remember that there is no requirement for the two sides to have mirrored objectives, nor is there any requirement to communicate each side's objectives to the other.

[Michael Emrys]

Remember that there is no requirement for the two sides to have mirrored objectives, nor is there any requirement to communicate each side's objectives to the other.

I suppose you could have the attacker win a minor victory by just getting to the bridge site with a higher level of victory possible if he manages to get across. That was a frequent objective in the real war.

Michael

[JonS]

Yep. And that's just further amplification that this is a scenario design issue rather than a game engine issue.

[GhostRider3/3]

There are a variety of bridges in the game. Unlike CMx1 these allow passage of different types of units depending on their weight class. We have three types:

Foot only

Normal

Heavy

We have different lengths and widths, as well as styles (wood, stone, and steel).

Steve

That is Freaking AWESOME!

Thanks Battlefront!

[LDZ]

how is it with the tonnage a bridge can hold?

Like I will place or tell two or three tiger 2 tanks to cross or stand on a small wood or brick bridge all day long.

will the bridge brake or is there no weight limit?

[MikeyD]

Heavyweights will simply consider lighter bridges unpassable. So you won't be able to plot a movement path across them. About stacking up Tigers onto one bridge until it fails, that's an indication that there's more problems with your scenario than just bridge weight capacity.

[Gromit]

I'm gonna have a difficult time deciding in late April whether to play the game or plot my next map masterpiece plan... Muhhaaahaaa!

Got a little carried away there.

[womble]

Heavyweights will simply consider lighter bridges unpassable. So you won't be able to plot a movement path across them. About stacking up Tigers onto one bridge until it fails, that's an indication that there's more problems with your scenario than just bridge weight capacity.

It's not a problem with the scenario if that's what it was designed to check.

I say, I say, I say,

How many Tigers does it take to collapse a Heavy bridge?

I don't know, how many Tigers does it take to collapse a Heavy bridge?

...

[LDZ]

It's not a problem with the scenario if that's what it was designed to check.

I say, I say, I say,

How many Tigers does it take to collapse a Heavy bridge?

I don't know, how many Tigers does it take to collapse a Heavy bridge?

...

It take 0 tigers to collapse a bridge.

Was just asking if i am able to order my troops to do stupid things.

Or in case some one has blown my engineers to nirvana and i have to blow/crush a bridge I cud use tanks instead.

Or just let infantry walk in gleichschrit over it until it collapse xD

In case i have no arty.

Just checking the possibility's.

[TrapOne]

Would this be an appropriate time to enquire about the number of horse-drawn field kitchens that a medium-capacity wooden bridge can accommodate?

Edit: I'm pretty sure that I joined the forum in 2001. I'm not some crazy person who does nothing but read archived threads about improbable vehicle combinations.