Wehrmacht uniforms @1944

[ChrisND]

Also, a question on balconies: given the largely decorative nature, zero cover and limited standing room of the tiny wrought iron balconies on nearly all European buildings, are they going to act like the CMSF balconies -- i.e. entire squads choosing to stand out in the open on them instead of staying inside the building envelope under cover? If there's no change from CMSF, mapmakers PLEASE keep balconies mercifully few in number.

There's been a feature for quite some time now (since NATO at least) where you can put in the balcony and then remove the doors. So the balcony is there, but the troops stay inside.

[Pvt. Ryan]

Although I suppose it's been in CMSF, I like that the vehicle serial numbers are not a series of 8s and 0s. Maybe Tiger tank # 808 won't rule the Normandy battlefields this time.

[LukeFF]

-Will German machine gunners have ammo belts draped around their neck?

-Will grenades disappear from the soldier's body after they have been thrown?

[Battlefront.com]

There are limitations as to what we can put onto soldiers dynamically. Things which flex, like ammo belts, are problematic because they need to conform to the posture of the soldier dynamically. The easiest way to do this is build it into the soldier's model itself, which means we have to make a unique soldier model just for the case of someone having ammo draped over his shoulders. And then what do we do when the ammo is used up? Dynamically swapping out models has a lot over overhead concerns. So no, there are no ammo belts draped over soldiers' shoulders.

The other problematic situation is a piece of ridged equipment which is worn on a part of the body which flexes in an incompatible way. The best example of this is a German stick grenade shoved into the front of a soldier's belt. It would look fine if the soldier were standing up and standing still. But as soon as he starts to moves it is inevitable that one or more animation sequences (running, kneeling, etc.) will be in conflict.

We decided to put off refining what a soldier can carry for another day. The leap of CM:BN over all previous CM games (including CM:SF) is rather substantial. That's more than good enough.

Steve

[Volltreffer]

The photo of the 12th SS in the first post on this thread that is artificially coloured is showing Italian camoflage. How is the camo going to be depicted once the SS and FJ come along?

Will a squad show a combo of some soldiers wearing Dot44 tunic with feldgrau pants, and some wearing Dot44 pants with feldgrau tunic?

As longs as its not all Dot44 like CM:BO.

[Mord]

Will a squad show a combo of some soldiers wearing Dot44 tunic with feldgrau pants, and some wearing Dot44 pants with feldgrau tunic?

As longs as its not all Dot44 like CM:BO.

If modding is the same as it is CMSF you'll be able to have as many combos as your computer can handle...checkout my Syrian Fighter's mod or any of Birdstrikes' or Ryujin's uni mods and that'll give you an idea of just how varied we can have the uniforms. Shirts, pants, boots, helmets, equipment...can all be mixed up if one wants.

Mord.

[panzermartin]

Wasnt aware that inf textures are so mod-able. Does this mean we will be able to visually portray the chaotic state of the german army?

[Mord]

Yep...from what I've seen just in the pics there will be some variations....but modding wise, again, if it stays like CMSF, you can mod (re-texture) the helmets, the shirts, the boots, the pants, and any equipment/vests/back packs and the like.

Example; Uni #1 Camo pants, grau shirt, camo helmet...Uni #2 grau pants, camo shirt, grau helmet with chicken wire...so on and so forth.

Another good example is to check out the Muji Uniform Mod in the Afghanistan section of the respository.

Mord.

[Battlefront.com]

The picture above illustrates the limitations of modding textures. From left to right we have:

1. Soldier with camouflage smock

2. Assault Gun crew

3. Junior officer

4. Soldier with M42/M43 tunic

With #1 the problem is the smock has a very distinct physical shape to it. This can't be simulated until we make a model specifically for that type of smock.

#2 is no problem because we have Assault Gun crews in the game now with their own texture sets separate from Panzer and Armored Engineers.

#3 we don't have breaches on any model, but we do have unique textures for junior and another set for senior officers. Which means you can have an older style green collared tunic (M36/M40) without it showing up for regular soldiers.

#4 is our standard soldier dude so no problems there.

Fortunately for modders, the SS Peas and SS Italian uniforms were cut in the same style as the M43. Trousers were also very similar to standard wool trousers. Which means you can easily retexture them and they will look right. This will produce a variety of types in the game. Though that's not really realistic because in Normandy the SS units tended to be freshly equipped and therefore didn't have a great amount of variation. Especially within a single unit, such as a Rifle Squad.

Steve

[Mord]

but we do have unique textures for junior and another set for senior officers. Which means you can have an older style green collared tunic (M36/M40) without it showing up for regular soldiers.

Steve

Excellent boneage! That will be really cool.

Mord.

[Destraex1]

Unfortunatley neither of which apply.

VRAM = Video RAM

VRAM =/= Virtual RAM

So its an issue of how much dedicated video RAM is on your graphics card.

Thanks. Don't know why I was thinking Virtual RAM Must have been a blond day or a beer day. cannot remember which.

As for video ram I have 768mb dedicated in a GTX 460. A very cheap card, but it does the job.

I think CMSF minimum was ~ 256mb of video memory.

[LongLeftFlank]

Thanks, Steve, for the additional info. Clearly this is receiving the attention it deserves!

My next pet peeve: the unforgivable lack of THESE in the screenshots!!!!

[finalcut]

Thanks, Steve, for the additional info. Clearly this is receiving the attention it deserves!

My next pet peeve: the unforgivable lack of THESE in the screenshots!!!!

LMAO.Talk about a sweet gig.How hard do you think that guy really had to work.He must have been a Generals son.I can see it now.

Father the General "Son,stop screwing around with those stupid pet birds and start studying for the Military entrance test.You will be a fine German Officer like me someday."

Son " But Father,I don't want to be a Soldier,I just wanna raise birds for a living,I love my precious little pets."

Generals wife " Hans my dear,isn't there some way Jr. can be a Soldier and raise birds at the same time? You are his Father,and a General,you can surley find a way to make this work."

[Battlefront.com]

Heh... I can only imagine how much some Wehrmacht collector would pay for one of those pigeon backpacks!

Steve

[Michael Emrys]

Then of course the Brits responded with the Anti-pigeon Falcon Mk. III.

Michael

[LongLeftFlank]

Heh... I can only imagine how much some Wehrmacht collector would pay for one of those pigeon backpacks!

Steve

Gently used?

[Maciej Zwolinski]

...

You can go about cherry picking pictures where this is not the case until the cows come home, but the fact is the Germans were never able to issue more than a fraction of their troops with camouflage. SS units being the major exception, but then again they had slave labor and a priority of resources at their disposal. Similar with FJ and LW Field Division units. Which means when we get to those units you will see plenty of camo in the game.

...

Steve

Gents,

On the basis of the above I assume that the British/SS module will add a model representing a man in a camouflage smock. Unless all the SS camo in the game is pea dot pattern which would be a tad unhistorical so it will probably not happen, and would not work for FJ anyway.

Would it be possible at that time to patch the camouflage smock model into the main game as well so that it could be used for Heer camouflage? The shape of SS smock and Wehrmacht smock is almost the same, they only differ with regard to the pattern. Great visual enchancement and also historical, as I am sure you know of all places Normandy would be where Heer camouflage clothing was used in the most significant numbers (maybe apart from Kursk).

Any thoughts?

Maciej

[MikeyD]

The M43 German tunic was the standard, typical German uniform type in the theatre. There's no getting around that.

[LongLeftFlank]

Mikey, this statement is indeed correct, but that does not get you around the observable fact that at present the beta game German infantry looks more like the 1941 army than a 1944 one, even though their weapons and equipment look fine.

8: Sniping for victory

(larger image)

Don't take it as a personal attack or "whining"; you guys have put plenty of love into a lot of the details and you know your core audience is serious wargamers. I am just proposing a few tweaks to help finish the job and make this beautiful game look "right". The decision of what to do with this data and how to prioritize the work is Steve's.

To confirm that I'm not under some delusion, I spent an evening last week reviewing several hundred combat photos of armed Heer troops in combat in 1944 France (I set aside FJ, SS and prisoners, who might have shed gear). I also set aside the issue of greatcoats which were worn in combat on cold days in June -- that's for the Bulge module).

My conclusion, for whatever it might be worth to you and BFC, is that while some formations entered combat looking more "uniform" while others looked more mix-and-match / ragtag, absolutely none of them looked like the troops shown in the beta. While the modders will happily do the ragtagging (trousers, helmets), you don't want your standard infantry set looking out of place.

I believe the workarounds for this are fairly simple, and don't require smocks (although I'd be disappointed not to see them on the SS and FJ) or any other wireframe changes.

(a) lose the jackboots. Jackboots were still seen on landser, but were in a distinct minority in 1944. Officers, artillerymen, rear area troops were a different story. Steve has already noted that the jackboots will eventually be swapped out for gaiters and ankle boots, and that will be a big help right there.

( Lose (or limit) the classic "Y back" black suspenders. Yes, these were still standard parade ground issue in 1944, but I found very few combat pictures showing landser wearing them. 80-90% of the pictured guys in M43 tunics simply wore belts. And on the ones I did find, the suspenders looked more like brown than black (can't confirm this as most period "colour" shots have been 'shopped). Anyway, they didn't stand out from the tunic nearly as much as the game shows. Another effect of the suspenders is that it makes the tunics look far more "close fitting" and tidy. Not the look you want for your war-weary '44 Wehrmacht.

Or simply prove me wrong -- I am not a uniform grog, much less a collector. Post a period photo of a 1944 Heer infantry formation in the field that looks like your guys.

FWIW.

[LongLeftFlank]

Couple of more good pics, one with suspenders -- and jackboots on one guy (1052 PG regiment), trying to be fair here, no "cherry picking".

And one with belts... except the guy on the left who does have the braces

[Sequoia]

I wonder if they were going for a look that most people would expect to see rather than one that would impress uniform grogs.

[Maciej Zwolinski]

The M43 German tunic was the standard, typical German uniform type in the theatre. There's no getting around that.

No, for the SS combat units it was not. Most of those guys wore camo smocks. Same goes for the paratroopers.

Surely feldgrau tunic was standard for the Wehrmacht units but that is not my point. The point is that Battlefront will be making game models for German soldiers in smocks anyway when they will be doing the SS troops (or so I hope) - and I am wondering if it would be much efort to retrofit those models into the main game for a few Heer units like snipers, recon teams and forward observers. If it is not too much trouble, they could put it in a patch - there usually is a patch for the main game after a module comes out. And snipers/recon did wear camouflage often, even though the average solder wore field grey.

Maciej

[vincere]

Couple of more good pics, one with suspenders -- and jackboots on one guy (1052 PG regiment), trying to be fair here, no "cherry picking".

And one with belts... except the guy on the left who does have the braces

The guys in th bottom picture look young. The one on the left below 16 to me.

Do you know why they moved to ankle boots, was it a resource thing?

[Battlefront.com]

Mikey, this statement is indeed correct, but that does not get you around the observable fact that at present the beta game German infantry looks more like the 1941 army than a 1944 one, even though their weapons and equipment look fine.

Everybody is entitled to their opinions, of course, but I have to say that you're opinions don't jibe with more than 20 years of being a German "uniform grog".

I am just proposing a few tweaks to help finish the job and make this beautiful game look "right".

Which is exactly why we're not going to do some of the things you suggest. To do them would be wrong.

To confirm that I'm not under some delusion, I spent an evening last week reviewing several hundred combat photos of armed Heer troops in combat in 1944 France (I set aside FJ, SS and prisoners, who might have shed gear).

I appreciate the effort, but you're quite frankly wasting your time if all you are doing is looking at photos. Try looking at various collector/reenactor websites or consult books. I've got probably a dozen detailed books on German WWII uniforms. Plus hundreds of photos in them.

(a) lose the jackboots. Jackboots were still seen on landser, but were in a distinct minority in 1944. Officers, artillerymen, rear area troops were a different story. Steve has already noted that the jackboots will eventually be swapped out for gaiters and ankle boots, and that will be a big help right there.

Yes, already covered. Jackboots were mostly limited to NCOs, officers, and others who didn't want to give them up. Newer troops, which Normandy had plenty of, used ankle laceup boots with gaiters as the standard footwear.

( Lose (or limit) the classic "Y back" black suspenders. Yes, these were still standard parade ground issue in 1944, but I found very few combat pictures showing landser wearing them. 80-90% of the pictured guys in M43 tunics simply wore belts.

Sorry, I can't take this seriously. Black leather Y-straps were standard combat issue until the end of the war. Troops in garrison might not have worn them all the time, sure enough, but in the field it would be near impossible to carry a combat load without them. It's a simple fact. The metal belt clips on the M-43 tunic were designed to balance the belt's load, not support it. Which is why Y-strap suspenders were used by the post-war German Army until roughly 1988 when they moved to an H-strap system.

Towards the end of the war canvas Y-straps that entered service as a substitute, due to shortages of leather. These Y-straps were similar to those used in tropical climates, in particular by the Afrika Korps. All kinds of low quality substitute items were also introduced at this point in time.

Or simply prove me wrong

The great thing about where I sit is I don't have to prove anything.

Time to move on.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Vincere,

The guys in th bottom picture look young. The one on the left below 16 to me.

Surely nobody is going argue that this is a combat picture? To me this looks like a garrison unit somewhere. Only one of them has a helmet with him. And without the Y-straps I bet there's nothing more than a bayonet and possibly an empty breadbag on his back. No gasmask cans either. Dunno why the guy on the left, who looks more fit for combat (Y-straps, gasmask, grenades, canteen) is more ready for combat than the others.

Do you know why they moved to ankle boots, was it a resource thing?

Yes, leather shortages became more and more of a problem as the war went on. By cutting the boots down to the ankle they saved probably 60% of the finished leather used on jackboots. The rest could be made up with canvas, which could be made from a variety of materials.

Steve