Wehrmacht uniforms @1944

[LongLeftFlank]

So as I peruse the tantalizing screenies, I find myself wondering whether the German landser look a little too 1940 -- Airfix 1:32 German soldiers come to life with their shiny black jackboots and "suspenders" (web straps). The issue of uniform colouration (cucumber vs feldgrau) has been adequately noted already.

If you Google images for "German Normandy" you will see what I mean -- if you put aside the SS and FJ with their characteristic smocks. The Wehrmacht landser bloused their trousers over their boots. And it seems they had either done away with the suspenders altogether in favour of belts, or else had a bunch of ammo pouches or link belts dangling from it. Also, maybe it's a function of drafting scrawny teenage kids and underfed Poles, but their uniforms appear somewhat baggy, not well-fitting.

Finally, I'm not the first to note this, but the helmets for both sides seem a little small relative to the wearers (yes, I know these dudes in the pic are 12 SS). Is it the liners?

But there's lotsa folks far groggier than I on this topic. Have at it!

[Destraex1]

Don't mention this as forum goers will just shout you down saying its not finalised yet

I too will add that I'm sure BF are well aware of this.... I agree that it would be nice to have the infantry look as in your picture.

[LongLeftFlank]

This critique is meant constructively of course. Modders will do the colours and dirt up fine, but we can't do anything with the wireframes other than to alpha channel some stuff transparent. Here's another shot, of Heer this time. Some of their tunics look more old school but are still covered with stuff.

Und hier (I think these are Wehrmacht panzergrenadiers).

These landser look a little more "uniform"

[LongLeftFlank]

And the same goes for the doggies. Carrying lotsa stuff and looking baggy and unkempt.

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks, Knock-kneed,coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge, etc.

[gunnersman]

And the same goes for the doggies. Carrying lotsa stuff and looking baggy and unkempt.

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks, Knock-kneed,coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge, etc.

I want to know what kind of rifle the guy on the far right and close to the wall is carrying.

[LongLeftFlank]

Bayonet on an M1, it looks like. But a very long 19th century looking bayonet.

[Battlefront.com]

We could spend literally months making new soldier models and textures for the Germans alone. We could also probably cripple VRAM storage with all the textures.

No two soldiers are ever exactly the same, but the Germans have an extreme variety of possibilities that can never be simulated except in a small slice. Given that every new model comes with costs (dollar, time, VRAM, download size, etc.) we have to pick and choose carefully. While the textures and some details have already changed since the last batch of screenshots, we're not planning on expanding the basic models beyond what we currently have. And that means no camouflage smocks or Zeltbahns (which would require new animations I think).

Steve

[waffelmann]

Hi,

maybe a stupid question, but will the ss-troops in modul 1 use the same model like the wehrmacht-soldiers?

Greetings, Alex

[Destraex1]

If it requires new animations will the community be able to mod them on as suggested in other threads?

As for VRAM that is something available in spades I would have thought. For instance I have 500gb free hdd space and 8gig physical ram on 64bit.

[gibsonm]

As for VRAM that is something available in spades I would have thought. For instance I have 500gb free hdd space and 8gig physical ram on 64bit.

Unfortunatley neither of which apply.

VRAM = Video RAM

VRAM =/= Virtual RAM

So its an issue of how much dedicated video RAM is on your graphics card.

[LongLeftFlank]

Fine, I got that, but I guess my point is, if you're only going to do one basic soldier texture for RAM reasons, he shouldn't look like he's just goose-stepped down the Champs Elysees in 1940.

The GIs are acceptable as is -- it's the Germans that really look out of place. That was true in CMx1 as well. What is so hard about putting some ammo pouches on the front of those web belts; we modders can delete the suspenders but we can't add gear.

I hardly see how that crashes our PCs like a deck of cards.

[MikeyD]

he shouldn't look like he's just goose-stepped down the Champs Elysees in 1940.

You're right, by your logical he should wear the standard issue M43 uniform. Which is why I'm confused about people complaining that Germans are wearing the standard M43 uniform. Its like you're blaming Steve for Hitler's bad fashion sense. Every other topic the debate's usually about what was the standard at the time, what was the typical, what was the usual. For uniforms its what was the most fashionable and sexy. Its like Coco Channel is critiquing the title.

[GDog]

The GIs are acceptable as is -- it's the Germans that really look out of place.

There's the 'glass half full' attitude we Canucks are so famous for!

[LongLeftFlank]

You're right, by your logical he should wear the standard issue M43 uniform. Which is why I'm confused about people complaining that Germans are wearing the standard M43 uniform. Its like you're blaming Steve for Hitler's bad fashion sense. Every other topic the debate's usually about what was the standard at the time, what was the typical, what was the usual. For uniforms its what was the most fashionable and sexy. Its like Coco Channel is critiquing the title.

Not sure of your point here Mike. I'm not "blaming" anyone (except Hitler). I fully accept the need to keep to a "standard" wireframe for infantry, of whom there are a lot of figures/polys to render (unlike vehicles). But based on the photos I have shown, the "standard" here is simply missing some gear that was "standard" on 1944 Germans, and we can't retexture what we don't have.

I'll live with the jackboots (might ask Ryujin to swap in a GI's lower half at some point to see if it looks better), and the black suspenders can be alpha channeled away, but we need these guys carrying some more gear than a gas mask case or a backpack. That just doesn't seem hard to add.

[Mord]

I thought all models would have pouches and what not corresponding to what weapon they'd be carrying?

Mord.

[LongLeftFlank]

I thought all models would have pouches and what not corresponding to what weapon they'd be carrying?

Ideally, yes. LMG teams would wear MG42 link and change barrels; burp gunners would have 3 long skinny mag pouches on their chest or belts; Pioniere would be wearing a whole bunch of gear. And then you'd get potato mashers, in pouches, tucked into belts (and in boot-tops? or is that a myth? Doesn't seem comfortable)

But BFC has said that too many distinct infantry wireframes (textures less so) is a VRAM hog. Fine, I'll take them at their word on that. So rather than completely redoing the German infantry model, I am simply proposing they add some webbing gear on the front of the torso.

Even with no other changes to the existing model, that would give the landser more of an "in the field" and less of a "parade ground" look. Stick on a helmet liner with some twigs and wunderbar!

For example, a generic web kit could contain a couple of long ammo pouches and a satchel -- whether they contain ammo, mines or bratwurst is irrelevant.

Kind of like this badass looking Syrian who never made it into CMSF:

[akd]

Well, I think some bulked up models will be necessary by the time The Bulge comes around. These super lean and clean guys will look really out of place in the snow. Hope it happens sooner rather than later.

[Battlefront.com]

Ideally, yes. LMG teams would wear MG42 link and change barrels; burp gunners would have 3 long skinny mag pouches on their chest or belts; Pioniere would be wearing a whole bunch of gear. And then you'd get potato mashers, in pouches, tucked into belts (and in boot-tops? or is that a myth? Doesn't seem comfortable)

I think you missed quite a bit of discussion and haven't looked at the screenshots too carefully. We have two things already in CM:BN:

1. Equipment specific to a soldier's type and weapon being carried

2. Variations of some equipment configurations to give variety

Now, do we have the super special configuration for Pioneers complete with their unique ammo pouches and standard issue wire cutters hanging from their belt? No, we have to draw the line somewhere.

Even with no other changes to the existing model, that would give the landser more of an "in the field" and less of a "parade ground" look. Stick on a helmet liner with some twigs and wunderbar!

The vast majority of Heer soldiers in Normandy wore the M43 jacket. Second most common would probably be M42, which is pretty much the same as the M43.

You can go about cherry picking pictures where this is not the case until the cows come home, but the fact is the Germans were never able to issue more than a fraction of their troops with camouflage. SS units being the major exception, but then again they had slave labor and a priority of resources at their disposal. Similar with FJ and LW Field Division units. Which means when we get to those units you will see plenty of camo in the game.

And as has been stated many, many times before... we're going to have a wider variety of German soldier textures in than you can currently see in the screenshots. Gaiters and ankle boots will be seen too, and proportionally more than jackboots since they were the common footwear by this point in the war.

Steve

[LongLeftFlank]

My impressions are solely based on the few screenies that show the dastardly Hun in any detail. And believe me, I have perused them quite carefully. And to me, these guys still look 1940-41 era, not "Dark '44".

[silverstars]

Considering Charles collects uniforms and camouflage patterns as a hobby, you can be assured the uniforms will be up to snuff and realistic. And again, with having 60 or so of the little Fokkers running around on screen at a time you have to keep the randomness down to some level.

[Mord]

Steve is the uni-junky...Charles is a disembodied brain...Keep up!

Mord.

[Battlefront.com]

I see plenty of equipment arrangement variety in those shots, though admittedly most of the up close guys are riflemen or the guys aren't showing their fronts well. If there were detailed closeups of the fronts of MG gunners, guys armed with MP40s, G43s, etc. you'd see even more variety.

Notice also that the collars aren't dark green. From the distances of most of these shots that's going to be the only major significant stand out feature from earlier pre M42 uniforms.

And yes, I'm the uniform collecting guy. If there's anybody on this Forum who doesn't need any more research materials (pun there!), it's me. And my wife will gladly second that.

Steve

[LongLeftFlank]

OK, I'll look forward to new screenies.

BTW, I am overall very impressed with the look of the new game -- as you know, I'm a terrain and buildings grog and am very pleased with what you guys have done on that front. The vehicles, as has always been the case, are excellent as well.

[silverstars]

Steve is the uni-junky...Charles is a disembodied brain...Keep up!

Mord.

Dammit! I've been seeing Steve asMr. Battlefront.com for so long now I'm mixing their christian names up.

[LongLeftFlank]

Gotta love the smashed-in building roofs!

Also, a question on balconies: given the largely decorative nature, zero cover and limited standing room of the tiny wrought iron balconies on nearly all European buildings, are they going to act like the CMSF balconies -- i.e. entire squads choosing to stand out in the open on them instead of staying inside the building envelope under cover? If there's no change from CMSF, mapmakers PLEASE keep balconies mercifully few in number.

P.S. Sorry to keep asking such awkward questions. I blame the wine (Dutch Henry "Argos" 2004).

And thank you for the railroad tracks!!!!!!! I won't even be ungrateful enough to ask about the gauge!