RealTime and WeGo discussion

[Battlefront.com]

An interesting discussion got started in the Road Ahead thread. It kinda is getting offtopic but it is an interesting topic, therefore I've started up a new thread. Here is where the discussion started for those of you who want to read up on where my comments came from

We initially thought of putting in Command Delays for RT, but we rejected that concept even before coding it. Since then the reasoning has only been reinforced.

The primary problem with RT is that you can't issue commands to units simultaneously, which is how it can work in real life (the more unit, the more likely any two are starting something new concurrently). At the very least units in real life act independent on the chain of command to some or a large extent. Since the Human player can't possibly mimic the real world behavior, and there is absolutely no way we can have the AI be smart enough to move units around on their own initiative, there are already natural dampeners on player micromanagement.

Think of it this way. Is it realistic for you to order a tank to shift position to get a better shot after observing its current position is sub optimal? Yes, obviously. Is it realistic to do this the instant your brain realizes this? Yes, since your brain is in the CVC helmet of the tank commander at that particular moment. Is it realistic to impose some sort of arbitrary delay on that decision because... well... just because? No. So inherently Command Delays in RT are inherently unrealistic.

Another way to look at it is this. When playing RT and carefully managing one or more units, by definition less attention is being paid to other units. Units that in real life would have a much wider range of reactions to situations than any AI could possibly simulate. So by definition when you are making sure that one tank is in the best firing position, you're not noticing that something is hammering a MMG team in another part of the battlefield. If you were paying attention to that, and perhaps withdrawing the team or lending some aid to it, then you wouldn't be dealing with the tank's suboptimal firing position.

In WeGo none of these things are a problem unless the player rushes into an Action Phase without checking out everything. However, WeGo goes to the opposite extreme and allows excessive micromanagement and excessive ability to coordinate plans as well as to instantly change the current plan.

Theoretically PAUSE allows a RT player the best of both worlds. In reality I don't think it works out that way. People play RT because they want to direct things in continuous time, not in artificial pauses. Therefore, RT players are reluctant to use PAUSE even when they probably should. Obviously when PAUSE is used theoretically it changes things, even if temporarily, to be on a par with WeGo. The big difference is that RT players want to unPAUSE as quickly as possible, even when in the thick of fighting. WeGoers tend to want even more time to issue Commands when the fighting gets thick. The mindsets are just different, that's all. It's why people tend to prefer one or the other.

This is why I say that each method of play, RT and WeGo, has its own pros and cons from both a gameplay standpoint and from simulating reality. At least inherently. In a particular game the pros of one may make the overall outcome more realistic than the other form of play, and vice versa. Either for just a portion of the battle or for the battle as a whole.

And that, folks, is why CMx2 will always have both WeGo and RT options

Steve

[MikeyD]

"Therefore, RT players are reluctant to use PAUSE even when they probably should"

Let's not forget there's two kinds of PAUSE in the game. There's the GAME Pause that freezes the action, allowing you to place multiple orders that will be executed when you resume. Then there's UNIT Pause - the simple delay order. With that you can issue multiple orders while the game continues but delay their start until all your ducks are in order.

I'm a near 100% RT player and hardly ever hit the GAME Pause button (unless I want to see a missile explode or if I need to jump up and make myself a sandwich). Half the fun of the game for me is the 'burdon' of coordinating my dispersed units in realtime on a large map. And if i mess stuff up as a result? C'est la guerre!

[sfhand]

As one who plays WeGo, I'm glad the RT option is there. From my perspective, the more people your product appeals to the more resources you have to put back into them. I bought Dangerous Waters through you guys and feel it's an excellent example of a game that didn't get the amount of post release support it should have because of it's limited appeal (no knock on Battlefront or Sonalysts(sp?) intended).

Maybe someday I'll actually try RT, yet for now WeGo is challenging enough. I've always thought it boils down to what people like. You've put forward interesting reasons for your preferences and I'd like to put forward mine (even though I'm sure you've heard them before...)

I like large engagements. In attack/defend situations being the defender isn't nearly as time consuming as being the attacker initially for obvious reasons. Meeting engagements also have time intensive setups. While I enjoy devising the plans that are sure to fail, implementing them can become tedious. My preferred method in CMx1 was do do group movements and fine tune the waypoints after. This saved a lot of time and therefore reduces time spent in, what is for me, the most tedious part of large battles.

The main reason why I can't imagine playing RT is that I really enjoy analyzing the terrain, devising a winning strategy, and then implementing that strategy in a way that leads to victory. In RT, from my past experiences with other games, I feel I will miss quite a lot and not be able to adequately employ my strategy. I can see playing a small MOUT engagement in RT and enjoying it immensely, I'm just not there yet.

Hopefully, in the future I'll utilize the game to its fullest potential, but for now I'm still stumbling around trying to figure out modern combat, and I believe WeGo allows for a more streamlined learning experience...

I've never relied on the AI to find the best route as I've always viewed CM games to be not only a simulation of playing as el supremo but also as lesser leaders on the battlefield. For that reason I thought the command delays in CMx1, while not necessarily realistic, were reasonable modifiers to an unrealistic situation.

And, call me a fanboi if you want, I will continue to suport your products, not because I think they are perfect, but because they are enjoyable and I appreciate the craftsmanship and dedication you guys put into them. I really like your plans for the future and hope to see ww2 soon, which is why I view purchasing your cmsf modules as doing my part to help to kick the ball down the road (with the added perk of getting swell stuff to play with).

See you in Normandy...

sf

[Alan8325]

I play RT primarily and use pause frequently for exactly the reasons you mentioned. As soon as a firefight starts I usually pause the game to get the tactical situation of all of my units. I make some adjustments, if necessary, then continue while my units carry out their orders. I pause the game again to issue new orders once the old orders have been executed.

Each series of orders is usually only 1 or 2 orders per unit, each time I pause the game. What this actually amounts to is sort of a 15-30sec WEGO, but without the replays. The main reason I don't play WEGO very often is that during that one-minute action sequence there are times when I'd REALLY like to issue or change orders and it seems like an eternity once stuff hits the fan.

With that said, my particular play style really chops up the sequence and it doesn't feel like that much of fluid situation anymore, which is what battles really are. Many times, after I've played through a scenario once in RT, I play through it in WEGO with the same plan i used in RT so that I can watch the replays and watch it "flow."

So yeah, keep both. Also, add replays to RT if you can.

[Aloko Mac]

stupid question but I dare to ask

how is pause managed in RT with human versus human ?

Im asking cause I've never played RT versus a human brain (tbh Im playing my first PBEM since CMSF)

[dima]

Steve, you didn't answer the question that's on everyone's mind: are there plans to add command delay to WeGo? Or maybe you did but I didn't see it...

[TheVulture]

Steve, you didn't answer the question that's on everyone's mind: are there plans to add command delay to WeGo? Or maybe you did but I didn't see it...

Go back and look at the second paragraph of the first post in this thread.

[Other Means]

Go back and look at the second paragraph of the first post in this thread.

That specifically says RT.

[Tactical Wargamer]

And that, folks, is why CMx2 will always have both WeGo and RT options

Steve

Any chance of getting WeGo in MP in a future patch or just wait for the WWII engine to get my MP fix

Thanks

[Battlefront.com]

Quick responses...

Currently there is no ability to pause the game in RT Head to Head play. That will change.

We will likely implement Command Delays for WeGo. We left them out on purpose because it was always a controversial feature in CMx1. Some people really, really hated it. Though they were the minority, and even the grumblers were few, we decided it would be good to try it without Command Delays. If I were to rank the 100 most complained about CM:SF issues (not bug stuff, but feature related) I'm not even sure the lack of Command Delays would register. It's been hardly mentioned at all. Compare that to the amount of griping there was regarding the lack of the "Blue Bar"! Sure, sure... I know... people often have their gripes all confused and backwards in terms of least important to important... so I'm just pointing out that the lack of Command Delays hasn't been a popular cause for revolution amongst WeGoers That doesn't mean it isn't important, but based on feedback here it certainly hasn't been a significant issue.

We will likely add WeGo TCP/IP very soon. However, there will be no replay function. I know it isn't the best solution, but for now it is the only one we can muster. This was covered, in detail, fairly recently... but a quick Search didn't turn up the full discussion. Anyway, there is value in this compromise solution since it's exactly the same as a CMx1 TCP/IP WeGo game with the most restrictive timer option set. Personally, that's how I played since WeGo games took enough time as it was without the other guy watching the same turn 10 times

Steve

[Cpl Steiner]

We will likely implement Command Delays for WeGo.

A welcome and wise decision in my opinion, even if very few people have called for it. Even though a lot of future development is most likely for the games to follow CM:SF, it would be nice if we could have these new features added to CM:SF at some point. Since all the games share the same basic engine, surely this is feasible?

One of the cleverest command delay for RT play implementations I've ever seen in a game was for something called "Space Hulk". You commanded a squad or two of space marines through various corridors, fighting alien creatures. For as long as you played in RT, you accumulated "Command Time" (not sure of the exact name), which basically gave you the option to call "time out" if things were getting too hectic. When you called the time out, the game would pause and you could issue orders until the time out duration expired, at which point RT would kick back in again. You could pause normally for a toilet break or whatever, but this blanked the screen so you couldn't cheat and use it to plan your next moves. If you had better quality leaders in play, you accumulated more command time than if all your leaders were crap or dead.

I really enjoyed that system and feel that it might be applicable to some future iteration of the CMx2 engine.

[dima]

Quick responses...

It's been hardly mentioned at all. Compare that to the amount of griping

Steve

I think it has been hardly mentioned simply because there were more pressing issues on the table. Now that they are resolved I think more people will be wanting command delays, detailed hit text and casualty stats. All the things they are rightly missing from CMBB.

Command delays would definitely add realism and make good use of some of the features that aren't really used today in CMSF, such as detailed C3 parameters.

[Lee]

As far a play modes in CMII go, my only request is that PBEM (and internet) WeGo be set up like it is in CM, where the entire turn of 60 secs is calculated in advance all at one time with no graphics, then the file saved to a replay video. Thus allowing the player to watch the video at the pace he wants to, and pause and rewind as much as he wants to without having to sit through the entire 60 seconds of the battle while it is calculated in RT with the 3D graphics in place (and thus spoil any climactic showdowns that might take place near the end of the turn before the player is ready to view them).

This also has the advantage of the combat calculations being handled separately from the 3D graphics in WeGo play, allowing for maximum frame rates with the 3D graphics during those big battles with lots of infantry, APC's and tanks. This will be especially important for those huge battles we know scenario designers will make for CMII: Normandy.

[hoolaman]

The command delay was always a conceptual problem for me. As Steve alludes to above, is the tank moving because the driver thought it was a good idea, or has it been ordered to move by its superior?

With CMx2's C&C system the implications of communications, chain of command, unit initiative, area fire orders etc. etc. etc. means just whacking it in CMBB style is not quite as simple for CMSF.

In CMBB I could believe that Red Army conscripts might sit where they are and not do anything until ordered to do so. In that situation a lengthy command delay seems right. But what about a crack SS unit? They might move decisively under their own intitiative 98% of the time, but the other 2% they might be waiting for an order from higher up, in which case a command delay as long or longer than a conscript unit might be appropriate.

It's a discussion we have had here many times before. Unless you plug friendly units into the Strat AI, or allow a system for people to "role play" orders from higher ranks, command delays are a bit of an unrealistic fudge.

[Lanzfeld]

As far a play modes in CMII go, my only request is that PBEM (and internet) WeGo be set up like it is in CM, where the entire turn of 60 secs is calculated in advance all at one time with no graphics, then the file saved to a replay video. Thus allowing the player to watch the video at the pace he wants to, and pause and rewind as much as he wants to without having to sit through the entire 60 seconds of the battle while it is calculated in RT with the 3D graphics in place (and thus spoil any climactic showdowns that might take place near the end of the turn before the player is ready to view them).

This also has the advantage of the combat calculations being handled separately from the 3D graphics in WeGo play, allowing for maximum frame rates with the 3D graphics during those big battles with lots of infantry, APC's and tanks. This will be especially important for those huge battles we know scenario designers will make for CMII: Normandy.

I very much agree. On some of the turns that I know nothing will happen it is a pain to have to sit there for 60 seconds instead of being able to "fast forward" right away. I would like the turn computed in advance like in CMx1.

[Battlefront.com]

Cpl Steiner,

A welcome and wise decision in my opinion, even if very few people have called for it. Even though a lot of future development is most likely for the games to follow CM:SF, it would be nice if we could have these new features added to CM:SF at some point. Since all the games share the same basic engine, surely this is feasible?

It takes work to keep things backwards compatible. The work spent on that means work not spent moving the engine forward. So we have basically reached the point where CM:SF is not going to see much in the way of improvements beyond the original game concept. There's more information about the logic, and necessity of this, in the Road Ahead and other recent threads.

Dima,

I think it has been hardly mentioned simply because there were more pressing issues on the table. Now that they are resolved I think more people will be wanting command delays, detailed hit text and casualty stats. All the things they are rightly missing from CMBB.

Heh... I mentioned the assault of the Blue Bar Brigade as a very early (within the first few hours of release IIRC!) example of people singling out features to complain about. And now we have two people in this very thread rekindling the cause

Without any disrespect towards the people that want the Blue Bar returned, they have just proved what I said about the Command Delays. To some, including me, I see Command Delays as a FAR bigger issue to make into a cause than the Blue Bar issue. But taking a quick look back over the last year the Command Delay thing has simply not registered more than a tick on the complaint-o-meter. One way to interpret this is that the majority of WeGoers really don't miss Command Delays much at all.

Hoolaman,

It's a discussion we have had here many times before. Unless you plug friendly units into the Strat AI, or allow a system for people to "role play" orders from higher ranks, command delays are a bit of an unrealistic fudge.

Yup, which is why we thought we'd try the game without them for a while. Based on what I've already said here about the lack of interest in bringing it back into the game I'd say we made the right decision. However, bringing it back as an optional method of play is something that I think we should do. My current thinking is we could stick that into the new Iron Man (old Elite) method of play.

Lee and Lanzfeld,

There's likely to be no speed benefit when the turn is resolved if the data is pre-calculated. PBEM is pre resolved and that doesn't seem to make replay any faster. At least I've not heard anybody say that it does.

The argument against the Blue Bar has been made time and time again. What you guys fail to take into consideration is that even though you can't fast forward the turn on the first round through, you also don't have to sit through the precalculation phase. Because the game system is run through in real time the precalculation phase could still take 60 seconds for most people (i.e. their computers aren't good enough to process the turn any quicker). That means the minimum time for a turn playback is 60 seconds, exactly as it is now. And if you want to watch the full turn at least once the minimum time is 120 seconds.

So the irony here is that the suggestion to precalculate the turn may actually make each turn slower than it is now. I know the perception would be that it's faster, since I think perception is at the heart of the problem here. Meaning, you know you can't rush a progress bar so it is mentally accepted that it will take however long it needs to take. But stick a movie up in front of someone and the brain says "I should be able to fast forward this". Which is why I think that explaining things rationally and logically won't likely change people's opinion.

We have far more important things to do than to placate a perception problem like this. So no, we have no plans to precalc the WeGo turns. I'm sure you would all rather have moveable waypoints or something else first anyway, so it's not like we're saying no to improvements. We're simply saying that in the grand scheme of priorities reintroducing the Blue Bar is extremely far down on the list. Especially because moveable waypoints is something everybody will be happy to see while the Blue Bar will only appeal to a small number of people, especially once they figure out it doesn't save any time

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

To get back to a point that Cpl Steiner made about turning pauses into a game within a game... it's something we want to do. The best analogy are sports games where there are rules governing Time Outs, which are basically extensions of the game strategy itself instead of simple practical mechanisms for things like substitutions, conferring with the coach, etc. But this stuff will likely come after CM: Normandy. We've got enough on our plate for that release and a potentially major game feature like this really needs more attention than we think we can give it right now.

Steve

[Pinetree]

The one thing that annoys me with wego at the moment is the replays showing already destroyed terrain and buildings.Once that is sorted I'll be a very happy camper. Did the ammo counts not rolling back get sorted? I can't remember.

[Lee]

Steve: I never said anything about saving time. The point is that you can play the turn video from the beginning while having pause and rewind available, so the battle can be viewed at the player's pace, without having to see the end of the turn (major spoilers) before you even get a chance to savor the part of combat early in the round from various angles.

I was just now thinking of a work-around for this problem. Could you instead place an option in the game where when playing WeGo (PBEM or internet) you can click an option box that will tell the game to make the screen go black (nothing visible) and cut all sound while the 60 seconds of real time combat is being calculated? Everything is still being calculated in RT just as before, but you just can't see or hear anything while it's being calculated. Then the game would automatically (the player doesn't have to click anything) rewind the video of the just calculated 60 seconds of combat back to the beginning of the turn, then turn the picture and sound back on, and just pause the video. Now the player can hit the play button and watch the video from the beginning with full pause and rewind as much as he wants with no possibility for spoilers on the big tank showdown that doesn't take place until 38 seconds into the turn. What do you think?

Also, as far as separating the 3D and the combat calculations, again, it has nothing to do with saving time. If you have a huge raging battle with tons of units in it, it would allow for higher frame rates (nobody likes to watch a choppy battle) when you do watch the turn video because the computer could devote all it's processing power to just rendering the 3D, not having to handle all the LOS calcs, AI, etc. while also rendering the heavily reinforced battalion on each side of the battle. Anyhow, this is more of a side-benefit, the above point if far more important, as it affects every single turn.

[Battlefront.com]

Pinetree,

Yeah, we've got that on our ToDo List. It's a bit tricky, but definitely something that should be done and will be done.

Lee,

Ah! Well, having Pause and possibly Rewind available for that first play through of the turn should be possible. I'll see what can be done about that. Rewind is the trickier of the two, that's for sure.

I'm still not sure there would be a dramatic reduction to the framerate hit of big battles. The way results are shown on the screen is by having the computer process things almost the same as a realtime game, except that certain variables are knowns instead of unknowns. Meaning, the system still has to calculate all the physics of a shot from Unit A to Unit B, but where the shot winds up and what damage it does have already been determined. This is a fairly small amount of processing power.

Put another way, a replay is not the same as watching a video capture of the turn. There are still tons of non-graphics related calculations going on.

Steve

[Lee]

Steve: Well, I certainly hope a way can be figured out to make that work, it would hugely benefit WeGo battles to be able to pause and rewind from the start of the turn. But again, if you can instead give us a "blank screen and no sound" game option for when the turn if first being calculated in 60 seconds RT, so we don't have to see or hear anything, and can then play back a saved video replay of what just happened in the turn, that would work just fine and might be a lot easier that trying to make it work during the first play through (where the RT battle calculations are going on to determine what will happen). Anyhow, you and Charles have my utmost confidence in the matter.

Yeah, apparently the way it's set up now the combat calcs and the 3D representation take place at more or less the same time, so it wouldn't really help the frame rate unless they were done like in CM.

[Cpl Steiner]

To get back to a point that Cpl Steiner made about turning pauses into a game within a game... it's something we want to do. The best analogy are sports games where there are rules governing Time Outs, which are basically extensions of the game strategy itself instead of simple practical mechanisms for things like substitutions, conferring with the coach, etc. But this stuff will likely come after CM: Normandy. We've got enough on our plate for that release and a potentially major game feature like this really needs more attention than we think we can give it right now.

Wow, I had no idea this was even being considered. Nice one!

[Lanzfeld]

Steve,

I never considered that for some people the blue bar calculation took the same amount of time as the turn itself due to slower computers. I am lucky enough to have a fairly faster computer and I play smaller battles so my blue bar in CMAK/CMBB was, at most, about 10 seconds. I see your point now. Thanks for the explanation.

Lanzfeld

[z1812]

Hi All,

In regards to Wego and RT:

It is a great option and much appreciated that either can be used. I play mostly Wego and use RT ( with pausing ) sometimes for smaller scenarios.

I wonder if Wego time segments could be shortened to 30 seconds. I do like the rewind and replay features that were available in CMx1. The ability to fast forward was also very useful.

One of the interesting things with the CMx1 rewind/replay/fast forward options was the ability to easily and quickly analyse what was happening at a certain time in the turn sequence. I miss that.

regards John

[missinginreality]

It is a great option and much appreciated that either can be used. I play mostly Wego and use RT ( with pausing ) sometimes for smaller scenarios.

I wonder if Wego time segments could be shortened to 30 seconds.

Totally seconded