Will CMBO Become Obsolete Upon The Arrival Of CM2?

[Col Deadmarsh]

I'm worried that our beloved game is going to be left in the dust when CM2 comes out with all it's new bells and whistles. This isn't Commmand And Conquer where a new version means everybody is happy because you are simply making a better game with the same scenario. When you choose to make a game about WWII and decide to cover different theaters, you risk alienating those that are much more interested in one scenario then the others.

From what I hear, CM2 is not going to be just an improved game but an entirely different one. This might sell a lot of units but it will have an effect on the sales of CMBO since it will now be compared to the far better CM2. If BTS was only making small changes, there probably wouldn't be a problem, but like we've been hearing, this is going to be an entirely new game.

What are BTS's options? Well, what about making an updated CMBO? Broderbund recently put out an updated version of Myst and it seems they are making their money back and then some. Yes, Myst is the all-time best selling game but we have a lot of loyal fans here and I'm sure most would be willing to pay an additional fee to upgrade their version of CMBO. After all, I hear many have not bought a software game since purchasing CMBO so their wallets are surely filled up with money by now. Maybe a survey by BTS is in order...

The following was posted by Robert Mayer in another thread but I wanted to respond to some of his remarks in a new thread for this subject:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Robert Mayer:

I can understand the concern for CMBO, once CMBB is out, and I kinda share the feeling, but I can't for the life of me figure out how BTS can get around the problem. From what I've been told, and from what we've all seen, the changes in CM2 are going to be pretty significant. Some of them, like the "weapon racks" and the unit designations, require an 800 by 600 minimum interface. Others, like relative spotting, vehicle morale, and vehicle organization, have huge effects on gameplay.

I can't see any way of retrofitting these to CMBO in a cost-effective manner. I suspect that to do so BTS would have to suspend work on CMII, and on CM3/4 as well. And all the improvements for the original game would in effect be uncompensated--they'd be revamping the game for no additional revenue, but with a lot of additional work.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree. If CM2 is going to be an "entirely new game" as is what we're hearing, then retrofitting CMBO with the new features and gameplay would also make it "an entirely new game." And if that means pushing back the release date for CM3, then so be it. There are much more Western Front Fans out there than there are for North Afrca/Italy. I say this not to be selfish but to introduce the subject of money as a motive.

Ask yourself this...when was the last time a game company made a WWII game that takes place in North Africa or Italy? As far as a major release...never. And if there was one, it wasn't a giant success. What I'm trying to say here is that this choice of doing a game with this scenario isn't to make money. It's obviously a labor of love for our boys at BTS, so keeping their other labor of love, CMBO, up to date does not seem out of the realm of possibility.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

Then there are the issues of performance and hardware requirements. CMBO has a very low hardware threshold. CMBB has a somewhat higher threshold. To retrofit the one to the other would necessitate upgrades for some--perhaps man--CMBO owners. Sure, owners of the first came could choose not to upgrade, but then, they'd only be able to play with other unupgraded people, the flow of user created scenarios would dry up, and soon they'd be outcasts anyhow.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

People are going to have to upgrade to a 32 bit video card anyway to play CM2. When it comes out, those cards will be around 100-125 bucks. This is not a major ugrade. Besides, 32 bit vid cards are now the industry standard. When you buy a new computer, this is what you get with it, not a 16 bit card. I seriously think this upgrade point is a non-issue.

So, I conclude this with a plea to BTS to consider all of us who love the Western Front and make CMBO backwards compatible/retrofittable so we can all play this game for years to come. If that means paying for an all new version, I am the first to say that I would gladly do this.

[Panzer Leader]

You talk about alienating a section of the WW2 Gamer fans by not upgrading the past games to meet the current game, but what about alienating the fans that want the NEXT game in the series?

And as for Africa, etc. popularity, I refer you to the DOZENS of board-wargames that have been made over the years.

And finally, I'd like to re-iterate what I said before, that a company should MOVE AHEAD with new products rather than wasting their time and manpower fiddling with old products.

Real Myst was little more than a gimmick put together by some computer hacks to cash in on a best-seller.

Is CM:BO not good enough? At one point you refer to them as "bells and whistles" then you seem to throw a fit because your old copy of CM:BO won't have these "bells and whistles"

Like life itself, enjoy each moment for what it is, not for what it COULD be.

Besides, I bet in the distant future (the rewrite?) they will put every improvement from every previous version into one master game, or something, until then, let them make their games in peace!!

[Agua]

I'm going to chime in on the side of retro-fitting here. It would seem contrary to BTS' Manifesto to leave CMBO to wither away if for no other reason than BTS would be unlikely to see the return on CMBO to be realized "in the long haul" by a great wargme which, according to BTS, distinguishes the type of success of such games from the immediate market splash to be made from retail wal-mart type distribution. That is, should CMBB present such an awesome upgrade with regard to features, vis a' vis, CMBO, if the Manifesto is correct, CMBO sales will suffer *premature* and artificial diminuition due to obsolence than would otherwise be expected.

I too would much rather see a retro-fitting of CMBO than a CM3 depicting warfare in the desert and Italy. Hell, we've got DFDR to scratch that itch until BTS gets around to it.

Also to consider is the basic good business principle of providing product support, for which BTS has rightly earned a high, high reputation. There simply isn't going to be the interest in purchasing an earlier game in a series when the earlier game is obsolete and there is no possibility of any upgrade. CMBO IS TOO FINE OF A GAME for such a thing to happen. I mean, anyone who downloads the demo and has an interest in wargaming is hooked, HOOKED!! It is THAT GOOD. It really just would seem senseless from a business standpoint to allow such an outstanding game with the potential for continued revenue long, long into the future, to simply wither away.

[Scooter]

I choose to support BTS in any way that I can. CM IS the best wargame -bar none, IMHO. I will purchase what I can in the future. If my hardware is not up to snuff, I'll work hard to upgrade just so I can still play future incarnations of CM. I profoundly feel this way out of gratitude.

Given that, I also feel Colonel_Deadmarsh's questions are not out of line.

You know, it just occured to me that maybe it would be better to not make CM2 backward compatible. Instead, it might be better to make a Western Front add-on for CM2. Having this add-on for CM2 at a LOW cost ONLY for people who own CM:BO. (BTS already knows who they are.) A western front add-on for CM2 would do two things. First it would reward BTS with some additional revenue. Their work won't go unrewarded. Second it would reward the loyal owners of CMBO with the very thing that they've been vocally asking for, for a long time -an upgraded CM:BO. The new features that we've heard about being applied to the western front would certainly be worth it. I can only see this solution as a way for everyone to make out rather nicely.

Dare I say it? Its a win-win solution. :eek: :eek:

[Schrullenhaft]

If BTS were to port all of the units from CBMO (and possibly add a couple of "missing" and highly requested models) into CMBB would you be willing to pay a higher price for CMBB ? Since your interest (and possibly others) doesn't lie in the Eastern Front you may not like that choice since paying US$60 may sound like too much when US$10-15 for an upgraded CMBO may be more to your liking. But if the additional work to upgrade CMBO isn't in the cards (for the amount of compensation that they may get for the effort) would you be willing to purchase a CMBB that costs more than CMBO, but had all of the Western Front's units ?

Change is inevitable, especially in the comsumer software industry. BTS has a vision of what they want CM to be and CMBB is the next step in the evolution of the game. While it won't be as big a step as the games based on the CMII engine, it is still an evolution that is demanded by the users of this product (and desired by the developers). CMBO in it's current state will seem dated in comparision to CMBB; that too is inevitable. I'm sure BTS will attempt to accomodate fans of the Western Front in some way if possible. We'll just have to wait and see what BTS's decision on this will be. The are very well aware of the player desire for upgrading the Western Front to newer engines.

[Terence]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

People are going to have to upgrade to a 32 bit video card anyway to play CM2. When it comes out, those cards will be around 100-125 bucks. This is not a major ugrade. Besides, 32 bit vid cards are now the industry standard. When you buy a new computer, this is what you get with it, not a 16 bit card. I seriously think this upgrade point is a non-issue.

.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know, personally, not being a big computer hardware expert, the problem I have with hardware upgrades is not spending more money on the video card, but the uncertainty of opening up the computer box and installing the card and then getting it to work with the new drivers.

You only have to look at the tech board to see that the biggest problem that anyone has is getting the video card to work right.

Thats been the case as far back as I can remember -- M1TP2 had major issues with one chipset or the other and it was, well, intimidating to someone who didn't know a chipset from a bar of soap.

I know that a lot of people will laugh, but the inside of a computer is kind of a scary place to me.

I don't know what I'm doing there, and I think I have easily messed things up without realizing it.

I tried to install a voodoo card to play CMBO, and I really screwed up my computer.

Not sure how, but the hard drive was fried after I opened up the box and put the card in.

I had to get it replaced and it cost me twice and a half what the card cost to get the computer fixed. Not eager to do that again, or lose the contents of my hard drive.

So I think that if you can afford 50 bucks for a game, you can probably afford 100 for a piece of hardware.

But I wonder if that is perhaps not the main issue for many of the people out there -- its the installing and making it work that terrifies people.

Now, let it be said that Im trying to learn how to do this stuff, and because I have good friends who put up with my stupid questions, Im figuring it out slowly.

But I wonder if lots of folks don't have

--friends who know the innards of computers,

--time to learn or

--money to recover from expensive mistakes made inside their computers.

That could be a barrier to entry, don't you think? And that is harder to solve.

Of course, I could be wrong.

[Vanir Ausf B]

People cannot expect BTS to release an updated CMBO every other year. I'm sure when they are making CM3 they will have fans of the Russian front begging them to retrofit CM2. Doing that would get them stuck in a rut where they become a company that spends most of it's time retrofitting older products rather than making whole new ones. For die-hard fans of the old products who have little interest in anything else, this would be great, but it would not be healthy for BTS.

By the time CM2 comes out, that vast majority of people who are going to buy CMBO will have done so.

I'm sure BTS will revisit the ETO someday, but fans of the ETO will have to realise there is more to wargaming than that.

[Maximus]

Terence,

While I understand your fears of the God Al'Mighty Motherboard and all it's chips'n'dips. It is really not difficult to work with.

You're frying of the HDD was probably from not properly grounding yourself before touching the innards. The first thing you should touch is the power supply. The big silver box in the upper rear of the tower. This grounds you.

Installing a hardware card is as simple as sliding it into the slot and screwing it down. Plopping the Driver CD into the CD-Drive and letting the auto-run and installer to do the rest.

[Conscript Bagger]

I think we'd all like backward compatibility, but the last thing I remember reading from BTS was "don't hold your breath." I'll continue to hope, but... I still haven't gotten that Ferrari-and-supermodel I've been wanting either. I'd rather have a full-featured CM2 than a dumbed-down CM2 with retrofit CM patch.

[Gen-x87]

Heeeelllllll noooooooo!

It is like the V for V series from atomic. CM2 is just a deifferent theater of operations and no way in hell am I going to just give up on CMBO. I cant play on the western front in CM2!

Also will not have an almost free riegn on the battlefield in CM2 with my Panthers!

Gen

[Agua]

Well, another thought is to bring CMBO up to CMBB standards with "CMBOII" like TS did with East Front and East Front II after West Front came out.

Hell yeah, I'd buy it; I'd buy at least two copies of each as I have already done with CMBO (inevitably, the disk is going to wear out).

[Maximus]

OK, now to the question at hand.

My view on this would be to finish and release the next version of the game, no matter where we are in the sequence and then work on retro-fitting the older versions.

You know there may also be a asthetic value here if you will. Some people would consider CMBO as a classic. Some people also have a "thing" when people go screwing around with classics. Same thing happened with the 1997 re-releases of the Star Wars saga. Some die-hard fanatics didn't like LucasArts screwing around with the classic movies. But as most people who like change, they found the addition of new CGI stuff to actually enhance the experience.

So where does that leave CMBO? Well, I think that enhancing the CMBO engine to CMBB standards would definately be a plus. First of all it would mean continued full price income from sales and continued interest in the Theater. For example, one of my all-time favorite flight simulators was Sierra Dynamic's "Aces of the Pacific". It was IMHO the best career-based simulator game I have ever played, along with the other games of that series, "Red Baron" and "Aces Over Europe". I'd kill for someone to redo those games to today's simulator standards and keep the same career play and aircraft selection.

[T34Rules]

As a personal observation, the WWII gaming community really seems to favour the Eastern Front, myself included. Not quite sure of why this is, but it does appear to be a fact. However, i think there are many who will always be interested in the Theatre of War covered in the original game.

[Pvt. Ryan]

The cool thing about the V for V series was that each new module plugged into the first one. When you launched the game the start-up screen enabled you to choose any of the modules as long as you had them installed.

Another reference would be the Talonsoft Battleground series. Each new title had a patch to incorporate any changes into the earlier titles.

Of course we can't tell BTS what to do, only what we would like them to do. Since CMBO and CMB2B share the same engine, none of the new features should be impossible to add to CMBO. It would just be a matter of taking the time to do it. If BTS decides to update CMBO it will only be after CM2 is out the door and debugged to the extent that CMBO is now. They would probably decide at that point whether to dive right into designing the new engine or if they want to update CMBO. Of course they may want to take a well deserved five minute break first. (Which brings up another question I have: Do they work on CM everyday?)

[Vanir Ausf B]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pvt. Ryan:

Which brings up another question I have: Do they work on CM everyday?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. Mondays, Wednesdays and every other Friday.

[[CoFR]Archangel]

I am posting my two cents as a newbie here.

I recommend that CM2 allows for mods to be made, maps to be made, by users to reflect CM1. There are enough geeks out here to handle the job well.

I am sure the folks learned lessons well in creating CM1, that they need to go back and start from scratch to get the job done right, in addition to taking advantage of new technologies.

I for one am looking forward to it, even though my CM1 copy is 1 week old.

[CoFR]Archangel

[Pvt. Ryan]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

No. Mondays, Wednesdays and every other Friday.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Slackers.

[ColonelSquirrel]

I would love to see BTS update the ETO I hate it when games jump theatres and leave your favorite one without an update, I personally favour the ETO and would like to see CM update ETO especially with the missing vehicles, don't get me wrong I am going to get CM2 but I want an update to ETO as well sometime in the future (but not too far in the future)

[Speedy]

I hope BTS finish off Cm 3 and 4 before spending time doing the CMII engine rewrite and revisiting the late war western front as I find this theayre to be the least intersesting of all the European theatres of operation. Also for this reason I hope they don't waste time doing minor upgrades to CMBO everytime a new game is released.

[Mord]

This is what I have been dreaming about and hoping for: After BTS finishes off it's scheduled plans for the various theaters, (Pacific hopefully will be added for sure by that point. Where's Bruno and Wild Bill?)and they know all the changes that they'd like to make to each one having gone through the Groggy Gauntlet, They will do one Huge God Almighty COMBAT MISSION WORLD AT WAR!

All theaters filled with all units from previous games and a few more that surly will be bitched about having been left out of the other games, like the Royal New Guinea Pigmy Airborne or what not. All added features from previous games, and new ones that will surly be bitched about having been left out of other games, like the poop boomerang of the Royal New Guinea Pigmy Airborne. And it will have one helluva a map editor with terrain for every enviorment this side of Mars and even a few huts for our fecal throwing buddies above.

This in turn would cover all the upgrading of old games we'd ever need and give us that all in one product that would make everyone piss theirselves with glee, no matter how theater specific they are.

It will be BTS's penultimate triumph, work of art, game to end all games (add any cliches and or adjectives you feel would fit).

If THIS version of CM is ever made I for one will be buying a box of adult sized Huggies upon its release!

Mord

[Panzer Leader]

Oh Mord... Oh Mord... Tell me, will it have a campaign game?

[gunnergoz]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

Oh Mord... Oh Mord... Tell me, will it have a campaign game?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To hell with a campaign game, will it have horses, M-16's and antitank dogs?

[Panzer Leader]

Gunnergoz, I believe they're called dobermines.

[Mord]

Ok... let me rephrase...smartasses stuff that was left out due to time constraints, or was forgotten about or just was not considered at the time, AND IS WITHIN' THE SCOPE OF THE GAME. HA!

LOL! I guess the Pygmies, M16's and Dobermines will have to wait for Combat Mission:Beyond Overboard.

Mord.

[lcm1947]

Well like the rest of you I can hardly wait until CM2 comes out and I'll be one of the first to buy it. I will however miss the Western Front. It in my opinion is the most interesting and satisfying. Not that the Eastern Front wasn't interesting but I am an American and like to play the Americans. Not knocking any other country they all great but I just like the Americans. So, I will play CM2 but my heart will always be in this first game and can only hope that it will be upgraded someday - soon.