C2 question

[Erwin]

I thought I understood how the C2 system works.  But am confused as in a current CMRT game I have all "green C2 buttons" from a couple of mortars to their immediate HQ and also to their Company HQ.  However, the Co HQ is a long distance away.  It gets "Out of Contact" if it tries to access either of the mortars.  Why is this?

The only HQ or FO that can access a mortar is one that is close enuff to have a visual.  

The Co HQ is then brought back close to the mortars.  Now the mortars can be called by any HQ or FO on the map.  

Does this mean that one can never send the Company or Platoon HQ's far away from the mortars in order to use them as spotters?  Why?

If all the C2 buttons are green I thought that meant that everyone in that command is in C2.  

[Glubokii Boy]

Maybee  the call for indirect fire does not use the chain of command when calling for fire...? the call goes direct from the calling unit to the mortars ?

If you place a radio jeep next to the mortar teams it works fine to use comp. HQs etc as far as i know...

 

 

 

 

 

[Artkin]

I remember hearing that CMRT is supposed to simulate telephone lines since that's how the soviets used to communicate. I read they worked pretty quickly immediately after artillery barrages to restore communications in Stalingrad, so I wouldn't doubt they were using them en masse by 1944.

[Erwin]

IIRC, all CM2 FO's (and HQ's?) are linked by abstracted landlines to enable them to call offmap arty regardless of the HQ's/FO's location.  My question is about a WW2 German onmap mortar formation.

If all the C2 "buttons" are green one would think that the HQ's within the mortar formation would have communication with the mortars regardless of location.  However, communication was only restored after the Mortar Co HQ was brought back close to the mortars.  At that time, all the FO's and HQ's anywhere on the map could access the mortars regardless of their distant locations.  

Have often said that there is something wrong with the C2 system.  This is very confusing at best... or possibly a bug.

[Combatintman]

You probably need one of them there screenshots to help us unpick it.  Have you got command links turned on ... what are they showing?

[Erwin]

This is in the first mission of the "Breakthrough to Kovel" campaign so easy for you to take a look.  The Germans start with two 81mm mortars under a Werfer Gruppe HQ and a Schwere Zug HQ. 

If you move the Schwere Zug HQ far away from the mortars all the C2 buttons remain green.  But, no other FO or HQ (that is not close enuff to the mortars for visual contact) can contact the mortars.  

The mortars' chain of command:  Mortar Squads 1 and 2 - Werfer Gruppe HQ - Schwere Zug HQ - 9th Co - Germania TF HQ.

I have command links turned on.   But, I do not see a link between Werfer Gruppe HQ and Schwere Zug HQ even though clicking on Werfer Gruppe HQ's next higher command level leads to Schwere Zug HQ.  Schwere Zug HQ does have a command link to Germania, HQ but does not have any link to 9th Company.

I thought that to maintain C2 only the Werfer Gruppe HQ had to be close to the mortars and the Schwere Zug HQ could be sent far away to spot. 

But, even though all buttons showed green (good C2 I thought), when the Schwere Zug HQ was far away, nobody could access the mortars unless the spotter was close enuff to the mortars for visual or voice contact.  

Have not tried keeping the Schwere Zug HQ close to the mortars and sending the Werfer Gruppe HQ far away and see if that creates the same problem.  Am in the middle of the mission so may try that at the end.

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Erwin

[MOS:96B2P]

3 hours ago, Erwin said:

This is in the first mission of the "Breakthrough to Kovel" campaign so easy for you to take a look.  The Germans start with two 81mm mortars under a Werfer Gruppe HQ and a Schwere Zug HQ. 

If you move the Schwere Zug HQ far away from the mortars all the C2 buttons remain green.  But, no other FO or HQ (that is not close enuff to the mortars for visual contact) can contact the mortars.  

The mortars' chain of command:  Mortar Squads 1 and 2 - Werfer Gruppe HQ - Schwere Zug HQ - 9th Co - Germania TF HQ.

I have command links turned on.   But, I do not see a link between Werfer Gruppe HQ and Schwere Zug HQ even though clicking on Werfer Gruppe HQ's next higher command level leads to Schwere Zug HQ.  Schwere Zug HQ does have a command link to Germania, HQ but does not have any link to 9th Company.

I thought that to maintain C2 only the Werfer Gruppe HQ had to be close to the mortars and the Schwere Zug HQ could be sent far away to spot. 

But, even though all buttons showed green (good C2 I thought), when the Schwere Zug HQ was far away, nobody could access the mortars unless the spotter was close enuff to the mortars for visual or voice contact.  

Have not tried keeping the Schwere Zug HQ close to the mortars and sending the Werfer Gruppe HQ far away and see if that creates the same problem.  Am in the middle of the mission so may try that at the end.

 

Thanks for mentioning this campaign.  I did not have this one but now I do.    It does not come with the game but was created by @Lille Fiskerby.  It can be found at the Few Good Men Scenario Depot III.   Also the mortars arrive as reinforcements five minutes into the scenario.

https://www.thefewgoodmen.com/tsd3/cm-red-thunder/cm-red-thunder-campaigns/fr-breakthrough-to-kovel/

So, I downloaded the campaign opened it and checked.  The C2 seems to be working as intended in my game.

To fire indirect on map mortars must be within close visual C2 (12A/S) of their COC or within voice C2 (6A/S) of any authorized HQ, XO, FO team or within 2A/S of a radio equipped vehicle (Off map mortars always have their COC & C2).

From reading your post I'm guessing your platoon (zug) HQ is to far away.

Moving a radio equipped vehicle next to the mortars should reestablish C2.  All your tanks are probably forward and in the fight at this point.  But if you have a tank available that can stop by the mortars you'll see what I mean.      

Edited October 12, 2022 by MOS:96B2P

[Phantom Captain]

Also, probably not related but relevant to the mortars and the campaign, be very aware of the map sizes too and realize that sometimes your on-map mortars are out of range and must be moved forward.  

@MOS:96B2P is correct about the vehicles and tanks also.  I always tried to keep HQs and 2IC units etc. close to my mortar positions.  

Edited October 12, 2022 by Phantom Captain

[Erwin]

12 hours ago, Phantom Captain said:

Also, probably not related but relevant to the mortars and the campaign, be very aware of the map sizes too and realize that sometimes your on-map mortars are out of range and must be moved forward.  

@MOS:96B2P is correct about the vehicles and tanks also.  I always tried to keep HQs and 2IC units etc. close to my mortar positions.  

Mortar range is not the issue.  The question is why do all the C2 buttons show green and yet the mortars cannot be contacted?

I thought that green C2 buttons meant there was a communication link between them all.  But when the Schwere Zug HQ is far away, no HQ or FO can contact the mortars unless they are within visual range.  Something doesn't make sense.

It is strange that the Schwere Zug HQ does not show any command line between it and Werfer Gruppe HQ a even though clicking on Werfer Gruppe HQ's next higher command level leads to Schwere Zug HQ.  

 

[Vacillator]

2 hours ago, Erwin said:

and yet the mortars cannot be contacted

Hmmm, you're starting to awaken something in my brain (it takes a bit of prodding these days).  In a BN PBEM recently I had three light mortars in a field, with their HQ in an adjacent field, plus an FO some distance away (of course).  All working well, all in contact and able to issue orders from HQ or FO.  A bit later, the HQ loses contact with the mortars - why I wondered?  No change in soft factors or anything else.  The FO can still direct proceedings but the HQ remained out of contact even when I moved it into the same field.  Seemed odd to me (and my gallant opponent - yes I know communication with the enemy is punishable but when it's about lack of communication with your own troops that's fine).

EDIT: I wasn't really paying attention to command lines sadly.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Vacillator

[Glubokii Boy]

4 hours ago, Erwin said:

The question is why do all the C2 buttons show green and yet the mortars cannot be contacted?

I messed a bit with this...

As the Werfer HQ does not have a radio you will need to keep some other radio equiped unit in sight of the werfer HQ to share info comming over the radio (from the spotter)..

Even when having another HQ at DISTANT EYESIGHT distance the from the werfer HQ the command dots all showed green when clicking on the mortar units. Everyone was in command according to the dots....but as MOS mentioned it seems you have to be atleast within CLOSE visual to get the mortars to work as a firing unit.

after moving 'the linking' HQ to CLOSE VISUAL distance everyone could ask for mortar support...

Could this be your issiue perhaps ?

 

 

 

 

[Erwin]

2 hours ago, Glubokii Boy said:

Even when having another HQ at DISTANT EYESIGHT distance the from the werfer HQ the command dots all showed green

The Schwere Zug HQ was on the other side of the (very large) map, no visual or voice contact possible.  If he was out of contact with someone in his chain of command, one or more of the C2 buttons should be red.  Is that not so?

IIRC so long as all C2 buttons are green that means that all the units in the chain of command are in contact with each other.  Apparently, this is not the case.  Very confusing.  

[chuckdyke]

31 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Is that not so?

You need to be in contact with the fire direction center which is off map. On map C2 your green radio buttons don't play a role. Official FOs and some upper echelons have radios but are not in contact with their radios on the map. Click on any radio icon and you go instantly to the unit it is in contact with. Except with the units which are in contact with a unit off map. 

[Glubokii Boy]

5 hours ago, Erwin said:

The Schwere Zug HQ was on the other side of the (very large) map, no visual or voice contact possible.  If he was out of contact with someone in his chain of command, one or more of the C2 buttons should be red.  Is that not so?

 

 

The Schwere HQ being out of visual range is not the whole story  Some of your other HQs (that is radio equiped) must be within visual distance of the werfer HQ and the mortars. these guys will 'link' the radio message they recieve from the Schwere HQ to the mortar section/ werfer HQ.

It's probaly the 9th company HQ or III/Germania  HQ that is within visual range of the werfer HQ/mortars...

If you move these HQs also out of visual range of the Werfer HQ/mortars then the command dots will show (as it should) a red dot infront of the Schwere HQ when clicking on one of the mortars...indicating that the link between the werfer HQ and Schwere HQ is broken.

The way it seems to be working to me when the Schwere zug HQ is far up front is like this...

If you have either the 9th company HQ or Germania III HQ in distant visual contact with the werfer HQ then all command dots are green since those other HQs share the information they recieve from the Schwere HQ to the werfer HQ. Being at distant visual contact from the werfer HQ is to far away though for the mortars to be working as a fire support unit...The linking HQs will need to be within CLOSE visual distance to share the needed info they recieve via their radios for the mortars to be working as fire support.

5 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

 On map C2 your green radio buttons don't play a role.

This is not true...Not for ON-MAP mortars atleast...

 

 

 

Edited October 13, 2022 by Glubokii Boy

[chuckdyke]

51 minutes ago, Glubokii Boy said:

This is not true...Not for ON-MAP mortars atleast...

They still need to be in contact with the fire direction centre which is off the map. On map mortars communicate with their HQ only. Horizontal communications need to be in speaking distance. It is the way I play it I never have issues like yours. I know it is ridiculous that a 60 mm mortar needs to be in contact with the offline fire direction centre. HIs platoon HQ calls for an indirect fire mission from his own mortar and you hear the communication goes through the fire direction centre. The moral of the story on map better use mortars for direct fire. 

Edited October 13, 2022 by chuckdyke

[Chibot Mk IX]

On 10/11/2022 at 6:17 PM, Erwin said:

This is in the first mission of the "Breakthrough to Kovel" campaign so easy for you to take a look.  The Germans start with two 81mm mortars under a Werfer Gruppe HQ and a Schwere Zug HQ. 

wait, are you sure the 1st mission of "Breakthrough to Kovel" campaign start with two 81mm mortars?

 

 

[Erwin]

Someone mentioned the 81mm arrive as reinforcements.  Am almost at the end of the mission so can't recall.  (Offmap 120mm also arrive later.  But, the offmap mortars are always in contact with any HQ or FO no matter where located.) 

Either way, the question is what is the point of having green C2 buttons that supposedly show that all units are in contact and therefore any HQ or FO unit should be able to access the onmap mortars - when in the game, if you move the Schwere Zug HQ far away with no visual or voice contact no HQ or FO (that is not in close contact with the mortars) can access them.  Why is there not at least one red C2 button in this instance?

 

 

 

[Bulletpoint]

This question was raised before, and the conclusion was that fire missions can only be given through the mortars' immediate HQ.

If you remove their direct superiors, but move a higher level HQ close to the mortars, their green dot will light up, because they now have contact with superiors, but that will not allow fire missions.

[Glubokii Boy]

32 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

This question was raised before, and the conclusion was that fire missions can only be given through the mortars' immediate HQ.

If you remove their direct superiors, but move a higher level HQ close to the mortars, their green dot will light up, because they now have contact with superiors, but that will not allow fire missions.

That does not seem  to be correct...

Here the Werfer HQ (immidiate HQ to the mortars) is moved out of command...All other HQs up the command chain is right next to the mortars...The command dots when clicking on one of the mortars correctly shows that the link between the mortars- and the link between the werfer HQ and the Schwere HQ is broken (red dot)...

 

[chuckdyke]

I can't see a radio unit next to the mortars. 

[Glubokii Boy]

4 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

I can't see a radio unit next to the mortars. 

All 3 HQs (Schwere, 9th Comp, III/Germania) below the mortars are radio equiped...

The werfer HQ (the mortars immidiate HQ) up front in the woods is not equiped with a radio. Thats why the link between the mortars and the Werfer HQ and the link between the Werfer HQ and Schwere HQ is broken...As indicated by the red dots in the picture.

This is not a picture to try and show a working set-up but rather a picture to show what Bulletpoint mentioned above does not seem to be fully correct...That is...the statement that replacing the mortars immidiate HQ with a higher HQ would provide GREEN dots in the communication link display.

The problem that Erwin is having is that in his situation ALL dots are indeed green but he still can't order a mortar barrage.

To get a working firesupport set-up in this situation as far as i can tell is to keep one of those 3 upper level HQs next to the mortars after returning the Werfer HQ to the mortar possition. This will allow the FOs as well i belive all other (or atleast most of the other HQs) to call for firesupport without being in visual distant from the mortars.

 

 

[Bulletpoint]

18 hours ago, Glubokii Boy said:

That does not seem  to be correct...

Here the Werfer HQ (immidiate HQ to the mortars) is moved out of command...All other HQs up the command chain is right next to the mortars...The command dots when clicking on one of the mortars correctly shows that the link between the mortars- and the link between the werfer HQ and the Schwere HQ is broken (red dot)...

Thank for testing it out - yes, it does seem like I was wrong about green dots lighting up in this way.

9 hours ago, Glubokii Boy said:

The problem that Erwin is having is that in his situation ALL dots are indeed green but he still can't order a mortar barrage.

To get a working firesupport set-up in this situation as far as i can tell is to keep one of those 3 upper level HQs next to the mortars after returning the Werfer HQ to the mortar possition. This will allow the FOs as well i belive all other (or atleast most of the other HQs) to call for firesupport without being in visual distant from the mortars.

I still believe the key here is, as you say, that the mortars' immediate HQ must be in contact with the mortars, either directly (voice) or by radio. Higher command cannot link up with the mortars directly and "cut out the middle man".

[Chibot Mk IX]

I hope Erwin can upload a savefile 

I am not very familiar with WSS structure, but for Heer formation , the mentioned problem can occasionally happen.    The root cause is the immediate HQ (Mortar section HQ) doesn't have a Radio. things like Erwin mentioned could happen in that case as,  the Mortar team is in verbal communication range with Section leader. The Section leader and platoon HQ are far away with each other but have visual contact.  It doesn't matter where the Co. HQ is, Co. and Platoon HQ have radio communication.

So, every layer has green dot, but the mortar is out of contact to the Plt HQ and Co HQ

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mnrjky18w6ht6vi/Feierabend Out of Contact Mtr 002.bts?dl=0

Here is a save file from scenario FR Feierabend 

[Lille Fiskerby]

The on-map mortars need a HQ with a radio. The mortar section HQ do not have a radio so you have keep the heavy platoon HQ close to the mortars. For me this has always been a dilemma because then the heavy platoon HQ cant follow the heavy machinegun section into battle. If you can put the mortar section HQ on a AFV with radio this also works. Then the heavy platoon HQ can follow the heavy machineguns.

[Lille Fiskerby]

In wego missions you also have to wait one minute before lines are open, hope it helps .