chuckdyke Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Artkin said: I see a lot of troops on the field by the mortars. Surely one of them has a radio. The Valentines probably do. Which is a good thing, because theyre FAR too slow to be runners for artillery. (They are really, really slow tanks) C2 doesn't play a single role. HQs can always call-in fire support. The mortar itself needs a radio nearby, Mortars are more useful for opportunity target and positioned in a defilade position. The other scenario I can think of is Red Dawn. Here it AT HQ 11 minutes to get off map support Next HQ is the sapper HQ also without radio.. No radio units nearby and completely out of C2. I am certain if the mortar is on the map with radio contact, he would be able to call in for support. How??? I made sure that the Mortar FO is in the proximity of the Regiment HQ with the Radio. I play in such a way as it makes sense. You need special training and know how to calculate artillery missions. A Sapper HQ wouldn't make an effective FO IMO. Edited October 16, 2022 by chuckdyke 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 18 minutes ago, chuckdyke said: C2 doesn't play a single role. HQs can always call-in fire support. The mortar itself needs a radio nearby, Mortars are more useful for opportunity target and positioned in a defilade position. The other scenario I can think of is Red Dawn. Here it AT HQ 11 minutes to get off map support Next HQ is the sapper HQ also without radio.. No radio units nearby and completely out of C2. I am certain if the mortar is on the map with radio contact, he would be able to call in for support. How??? I made sure that the Mortar FO is in the proximity of the Regiment HQ with the Radio. I play in such a way as it makes sense. You need special training and know how to calculate artillery missions. A Sapper HQ wouldn't make an effective FO IMO. Perhaps this is a case of landline telephones being abstracted? I've heard it being used for CMRT before. Would this AT hq be able to call in an on map mortar? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 52 minutes ago, Artkin said: Would this AT hq be able to call in an on map mortar? It is all abstract, when I play and the HQ calls in support I bring soon after a unit with a radio in the proximity. It is something we have agreed on. To make a trail which goes to the FO when available. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 5 minutes ago, chuckdyke said: It is all abstract, when I play and the HQ calls in support I bring soon after a unit with a radio in the proximity. It is something we have agreed on. To make a trail which goes to the FO when available. Sometimes I'll issue runners in my games as well when I'm goofing around. I'm more interested in the technical aspect of how this actually works though... Reiterating my question: would on map mortars not work in this case? With the radioless AT hq? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 1 hour ago, Artkin said: Would this AT hq be able to call in an on map mortar? Any HQ can call in mortars, Any German HQ can call in any artillery. Even the MG HQ without radio. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 2 minutes ago, Artkin said: Reiterating my question: would on map mortars not work in this case? With the radioless AT hq? On map mortars work as long as they have radios. German MG42 in the HMG role are in the proximity of their Company. Yes one solution is a runner to give the tentative contact to the FO who is in the proximity of the Battalion or Regimental HQ. Also I analyzed Red Dawn and came to the conclusion the most realistic scenario is a set piece attack and use the TRPs. Preplanned contradicts the scenario as the artillery can't be used till the appearance of the FO. Lucky we mostly play on Hotseat, most players don't. Imo artillery needs a complete overhaul. The basic system covers anything from RT&FR to Black Sea. It is up to us to customize the scenarios. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 Something seems a bit strange here ...I did a little test with the russian troops in CMRT to try out some things that chuckdyke showed above... It seems to me that the russians don't need any communications what so ever to be able to call for firesuppport from ON-MAP mortars....No radio link, no eye contact...no nothing... As long as the mortar platoon HQ is close by the mortar units any HQ anywhere out of sight or out of comms can call for on-map firesupport. The same does not apply to the germans... Also testing this on IRON difficulty non of the friendly russian unit icons dissapear when selecting a particular unit....When playing the germans they do.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 26 minutes ago, Glubokii Boy said: The same does not apply to the germans... I play Iron too. The section HQ of the MG42 can call in on map mortars the same way as a Russian HQ. I had to look for a HQ with no radio. Battle for Normandy Scenario Dunes of Erde. The mortar needs a radio nearby otherwise he is out of contact. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 The mortar is behind a dyke. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 You are correct...I had the section HQ out of place when checking the germans in my last post... You need to keep the section HQ with the mortars. The radio equiped platoon HQ next to the mortars will not be good enough if the section HQ is out of place.... I have not tested with a radio vehicle next to the mortars if the section HQ also needs to be in place close to the mortars or not...perhaps it will be enough with a radio vehicle in such a situation... When using HQs as the RADIO close to the mortar teams then the section HQ needs to be part of the command chain atleast....It can't be out of contact... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 With the Germans the Mortars on the Map have an HQ with a Radio the mortars need to be in contact with their HQ. The Radio is in Contact with the FDC which is most of the time not on the map. Any HQ can call for mortar support. I have some serious questions, but it is the way it is. Anyway happy gaming. With assets on the map have first a good hard look at the direct fire options. From a good defilade position the mortars are secure and can give often good support without the burden of indirect fire missions. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 1 hour ago, chuckdyke said: With the Germans the Mortars on the Map have an HQ with a Radio the mortars need to be in contact with their HQ. The Radio is in Contact with the FDC which is most of the time not on the map. Any HQ can call for mortar support. Seems correct... It is when the german side have an on-map mortar set-up with the radioless section HQ as the immidiate HQ to the mortar units that complicate things somewhat. In this situation it seems to me that the radioless section HQ MUST be included in the correct chain of command at the correct distance in order for the firemissions to become avaliable. That is within CLOSE visual distance of any of the other radio equiped HQ that is in the communicationchain of the mortar units....It does not have to be next to the mortars but it has to be within this distnce...close visual...to one of the other radio equiped HQ in the mortars chain...Having the section HQ being within close visual distance of another radioequiped HQ not in the mortars communicationchain (the green dot list) will not work neither will having some other radio equiped HQ next to the mortars if the section HQ is not placed correctly. Having a radio equiped vehicle next to the mortars does not seem to require the section HQ to be correctly located...This demand seems to apply only to HQs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 1 minute ago, Glubokii Boy said: section HQ as the immidiate HQ to the mortar units that complicate things somewhat. His function is to be in visual contact with the radio HQ this allows one or more mortars to be out of range of the radio unit. But in visual contact with their section HQ without radio. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 This doesn't make it easier but this is what the manual says. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 8 hours ago, Glubokii Boy said: Also testing this on IRON difficulty non of the friendly russian unit icons dissapear when selecting a particular unit....When playing the germans they do.... I have noticed this too in my games, I scratched my head for a second and of course totally forgot about it. I always play on Iron. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOS:96B2P Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 8 hours ago, Glubokii Boy said: don't need any communications what so ever to be able to call for firesuppport from ON-MAP mortars....No radio link, no eye contact...no nothing... As long as the mortar platoon HQ is close by the mortar units any HQ anywhere out of sight or out of comms can call for on-map firesupport. The same does not apply to the germans... A requesting HQ, FO, & some XO teams do not need a radio, COC or C2 to make a request for arty (field telephone abstraction). Rank determines ability (authority) to access arty (that doesn’t require an FO). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Captain Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Artkin said: I have noticed this too in my games, I scratched my head for a second and of course totally forgot about it. I always play on Iron. Same here, always on Iron. I have noticed the same, but playing through Breakthrough to Kovel I have just figured out how to keep them in contact using HQs and 2ICs etc. Pretty much as @chuckdyke has laid out. I guess some of CM's abstractions just don't bother me as much as long as things work (and yes, not always as one would expect sometimes). Edited October 16, 2022 by Phantom Captain 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted October 17, 2022 Author Share Posted October 17, 2022 Yes, we know that landlines are abstracted in CM2 so that any HQ or FO can call OFFMAP artillery regardless of the spotter's position or Chain of Command or whether or not it has green C2 buttons. It seems to be true that in the "Breakthrough to Kovel" example, the Schwere ZOG HQ needs to be close to (within visual range at least) the ONMAP mortars for any other HQ regardless of location to be able to access the mortars. What continues to unexplained is why Schwere ZOG HG can be moved to a far remote location on the map with no visual contact with the ONMAP mortars under its command and yet all the C2 buttons remain green - which is supposed to indicate that the Schwere Zug HQ is in communication with all units in its chain of command. If a spotter has all green C2 buttons up and down its chain of command, why can it not access ONMAP mortars unless it is within visual range of the ONMAP mortars. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 58 minutes ago, Erwin said: What continues to unexplained is why Schwere ZOG HG can be moved to a far remote location on the map with no visual contact with the ONMAP mortars under its command and yet all the C2 buttons remain green - which is supposed to indicate that the Schwere Zug HQ is in communication with all units in its chain of command. The C2 buttons only shows HQs up the chain i belive...If you are checking the C2 chain when having the Schwere HQ selected then the link to the mortar teams nor the Werfer HQ are included in that list. The Schwere HQ is most likely in contact with its 2 supperiors....9th company and III/ germania via radio coms... You need to have the mortar teams selected when checking the link and that needs to be all green unless you have a radio equiped vehicle next to the mortars.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 Also the Werfer HQ needs to be in close visual contact with either the Schwere HQ, the 9th Company HQ or the III/ Germania HQ. If non of those three other HQ are in close visual contact with the mortar teams then the Werfer HQ also nees to be in close visual contact with the mortars as well as one of those other HQs... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted October 19, 2022 Author Share Posted October 19, 2022 (edited) I completed Mission 1 (xnt mission btw) so did some experiments. When I moved the Werfer HQ to a distant location, the C2 buttons turned red and as expected there was no way for any HQ or spotter to access the ONMAP mortars unless the spotter was close to (within visual range) of a mortar. However, when the Schwere HQ is in a far distant location all the C2 buttons are green. Also note that both Werfer HQ and Schwere HQ have radios. One would think that so long as either Werfer HQ or Schwere HQ are close to (voice or visual) the mortars, that the other HQ could be sent to a remote location and spot for the mortars. However, that is not the case. One has to have BOTH the Werfer HQ and Schwere HQ within at least visual LOS of the mortars for ANY spotter in a remote location to contact the mortars. From what I can see, neither the Werfer HQ nor the Schwere HQ need to be in at least visual contact with 9th company HQ or Germania HQ. All these units have radios so there is no problem keeping C2 with those higher HQ's. I am looking at an earlier turn of Mission 1 of "Breakthrough to Kovel" and the Schwere HQ is 740 meters away from the mortars or the Werfer HQ. Schwere HQ is not close to 9th company nor Germania HQ. However, all these units have radios. In this example, when SCHWERE HQ is far away, if a mortar is selected there are all green C2 buttons all the way up the Germania HQ and both Werfer HQ and Schwere HQ are in that C2 chain of command. However, if SCHWERE HQ is close to the mortars and WERFER HQ is sent far away, the C2 buttons turn red. The question is if all these units have radios, why is there no way to contact the mortars unless BOTH Werfer HQ AND Schwere HQ are close to (within visual range of) the mortars when all these units have radios. Seems quite clear there is a C2 problem/bug here. If any one is seriously interested in learning about this then plz try Mission 1 of "Breakthrough to Kovel" and test this for yourself. The fact that no BF maven has chimed in with an explanation tends to confirm that there is a C2 bug and they know about it. It's probably not cost-effective to fix it. Edited October 19, 2022 by Erwin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted October 19, 2022 Share Posted October 19, 2022 5 hours ago, Erwin said: Also note that both Werfer HQ and Schwere HQ have radios. You're looking at the Werfer ZUG hq....You need to have the Werfer GRUPPE hq in contact with the on-map mortars and one of the radio HQs in that chain... These are two different HQs...I belive the Werfer Zug HQ controlls the 120mm off-map mortars...The Werfer gruppe HQ is the one that is in the same chain as the on-map mortars and this HQ does not have a radio... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted October 19, 2022 Author Share Posted October 19, 2022 If one hasn't fired up the game and played a few turns of "Breakthrough to Kovel" so one has the 81mm onmap mortara appear, then it's impossible for anyone to understand the bizarre situation. Yes, there exists a "schwere Werfer Zug HQ" in charge of the heavy OFFMAP 120mm mortars. We are NOT talking about this HQ and it plays NO PART in this bug report. To restate: There is a "3 Werfer Gruppe HQ" (with a radio) that is only in charge of the two ONMAP 81mm mortars. The 3 Werfer Gruppe HQ's immediate superior HQ is "IV schwere Zug HQ" and this HQ also has a radio. When "IV schwere Zug HQ" is moved far away, because it has a radio, all C2 buttons are green - from the mortars through both HQ's to 9th Company and to Germania CinC. However, when "IV schwere Zug HQ" is moved far away, no other HQ or FO on the map can access the 81mm onmap mortars (unless they are close to the mortars). This makes no sense since both HQ's in charge of the 81mm mortars have radios and as far as I understand how C2 is supposed to work, any HQ on the map should be able to contact the mortars via radio. Thank you for contributing to this thread as it made me do more tests and helps to prove that this is a bug. (Note that when "3 Werfer Gruppe HQ" is moved far away, even though it has a radio, the C2 buttons are red. That seems right cos the mortar units have no radio.) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 This is very strange ??? Are we even looking at the same scenario ? Granted i have not played much CM in the last year so i might be completally wrong here but in my scenario the situation looks like this... 3 Werfer gruppe HQ I can see no indications of a radio nor an indication of radio comms....only binoculars and voice/ eyesight comms. schwere Zug HQ Here i do see both a radio and radio comms.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lille Fiskerby Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 When the on-map 81 mm. mortars arrive they are under 9. Kompanie command (infantry/panzergrenadiere company). When the off-map 120 mm. mortars arrive they are under 12. Kompanie command (heavy(schwere) company. The 81 mm. mortars squad (gruppe) HQ has no radio you have to keep him close to his platoon(zug) commander who has a radio, or put the 81 mm. mortars squad (gruppe) HQ on a vehicle that has a radio, that way you will always have C2. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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