Erwin Posted October 14, 2022 Author Share Posted October 14, 2022 (edited) I have plenty of savefiles, altho how or who to upload them to. However, the situation is easily repeated if you load mission 1 of "Breakthrough to Kovel" campaign. Reading the above there may be a huge misunderstanding of what is going on. To repeat: The mortars' chain of command: Mortar Squads 1 and 2 - Werfer Gruppe HQ - Schwere Zug HQ - 9th Co - Germania TF HQ. One of the mortars is the section leader. If Schwere Zug HQ is a platoon HQ, then what is Werfer Gruppe HQ ? It is the Werfer Gruppe HQ that I moved far away (no visual contact) thinking that it could be used as a spotter as all the C2 buttons remain GREEN. If all C2 buttons are green (supposedly in C2 communication) it should not matter how far away Werfer Gruppe HQ is from the mortars as there is some sort of communication, yes? However, when Schwere Zug HQ is moved to a far away remote location so no visual communication but all green buttons, no other FO or HQ can access the mortars (unless the spotting HQ or FO is close enuff to the mortars for visual contact). The other C2 anomaly is that while clicking on Werfer Gruppe HQ takes one to its next higher command level Schwere Zug HQ, the Schwere Zug HQ does not show any command line between it and Werfer Gruppe HQ. Why is there no command line if they are in the same chain of command? Personally I have always thought the C2 system is bugged unless only used in a "laboratory setting". Edited October 14, 2022 by Erwin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lille Fiskerby Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 2 minutes ago, Erwin said: Why is there no command line if they are in the same chain of command? I think it has to do with radios if you are out of visual or vocal communication. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted October 14, 2022 Author Share Posted October 14, 2022 (edited) There is ALWAYS a command line when that option is switched on. If one is out of communication with a unit in the same formation the command line is black. "In communication" (ie close enuff) it is green IIRC. In my example there is no command line between Werfer Gruppe HQ and Schwere Zug HQ. Something is very wrong. Everyone is tying arguments into pretzels desperately trying to show that all is well. But, something is very wrong with the way C2 functions and this mission displays the problem well. Edited October 14, 2022 by Erwin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 26 minutes ago, Lille Fiskerby said: The on-map mortars need a HQ with a radio. The mortar section HQ do not have a radio so you have keep the heavy platoon HQ close to the mortars. For me this has always been a dilemma because then the heavy platoon HQ cant follow the heavy machinegun section into battle. If you can put the mortar section HQ on a AFV with radio this also works. Then the heavy platoon HQ can follow the heavy machineguns. If you keep the Werfer HQ where it starts...next to the mortars and also move the III/germania HQ next to the Werfer HQ then you will be able move ALL other HQ where you like...and ALL other HQs as well as the two FOs will be able to call for fire from those two on-map mortars. Atleast this seems to be working perfectly fine in my small test... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 27 minutes ago, Erwin said: It is the Werfer Gruppe HQ that I moved far away (no visual contact) thinking that it could be used as a spotter as all the C2 buttons remain GREEN. This is indeed strange...Is the werfer gruppe HQ out of visiual contact with all other HQs or only with the mortars ? If it has no visual contact with any HQ it should indeed be out of command....as it has no radio. 31 minutes ago, Erwin said: If all C2 buttons are green (supposedly in C2 communication) it should not matter how far away Werfer Gruppe HQ is from the mortars as there is some sort of communication, yes? When you say this...Do you have one of the mortar teams selected or some other unit ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOS:96B2P Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 32 minutes ago, Erwin said: I have plenty of savefiles, altho how or who to upload them to. However, the situation is easily repeated if you load mission 1 of "Breakthrough to Kovel" campaign. Reading the above there may be a huge misunderstanding of what is going on. To repeat: The mortars' chain of command: Mortar Squads 1 and 2 - Werfer Gruppe HQ - Schwere Zug HQ - 9th Co - Germania TF HQ. One of the mortars is the section leader. If Schwere Zug HQ is a platoon HQ, then what is Werfer Gruppe HQ ? It is the Werfer Gruppe HQ that I moved far away (no visual contact) thinking that it could be used as a spotter as all the C2 buttons remain GREEN. If all C2 buttons are green (supposedly in C2 communication) it should not matter how far away Werfer Gruppe HQ is from the mortars as there is some sort of communication, yes? However, when Schwere Zug HQ is moved to a far away remote location so no visual communication but all green buttons, no other FO or HQ can access the mortars (unless the spotting HQ or FO is close enuff to the mortars for visual contact). The other C2 anomaly is that while clicking on Werfer Gruppe HQ takes one to its next higher command level Schwere Zug HQ, the Schwere Zug HQ does not show any command line between it and Werfer Gruppe HQ. Why is there no command line if they are in the same chain of command? Personally I have always thought the C2 system is bugged unless only used in a "laboratory setting". To fire indirect on map mortars must be within close visual C2 (12A/S) of their COC or within voice C2 (6A/S) of any authorized HQ, XO, FO team or within 2A/S of a radio equipped vehicle (Off map mortars always have their COC & C2). Another way of saying the above: Have a good chain of C2 (CoC) up through their normal chain of command to a higher HQ with a radio. In this case that would be the Platoon HQ. In other cases it might be the Section HQ. OR 2. Be equipped with a radio themselves. OR 3. Be located next to a vehicle with a radio. Basically, they either need to use their organic C2 structure to receive fire missions or use a vehicle radio. In summary: The mortars must be in close visual contact with their Mortar Group HQ (Werfer Group). Not just any C2 with the green dots etc. but CLOSE VISUAL contact with the mortar group HQ. The maximum range for close visual contact is 12 action spots but can be less depending on terrain and sometimes skill level / darkness. On this scenario map the group HQ goes prone in tall grass. I had to keep them within nine action spots for CLOSE VISUAL C2. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 I made a few pictures to demonstrate what MOS is saying with regard to the mortars....Everything is working as he describes... In these series of pictures i have a simular setup to the scenario discussed in this thread...the mortars and the WERFER HQ deploy at the bottom...the 3 yellow(sand) lines are at a distance of 5, 10 and 15 action squares from the WERFER HQ. The III/ Germania- and 9th company HQ are deployed up front and the SCHWERE HQ is initially deployed 15 actionsquares infront of the WERFER HQ...That is in DISTANT VISUAL contact. 1. The Werfer HQ is in DISTANT VISUAL contact with the Schwere HQ (15 actionsquares away). https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/glubokiiboy/b1.bmp 2. The mortars have ALL GREEN communication dots. https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/glubokiiboy/b2.bmp 3. III/ Germania HQ up front can NOT call for fire despite the mortarteams showing ALL GREEN. https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/glubokiiboy/b3.bmp 4. The Schwere HQ has been withdrawn to a distance of 12 actionsquares from the Werfer HQ and are not within CLOSE VISUAL distance to that HQ. https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/glubokiiboy/b4.bmp 5. Ones again the mortars have ALL GREEN communication dots. https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/glubokiiboy/b5.bmp 6. Now the III/ Germania is perfectly able to call for firesupport from the ON-MAP mortars. https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/glubokiiboy/b6.bmp 7. Bang, bang... https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/glubokiiboy/b7.bmp https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/glubokiiboy/b8.bmp 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 Sorry...here are the pictures directly... 1. 2 3 4 5 6 bang, bang 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 No radio near the mortars no indirect fire, the mortars can only give direct fire. The reason you need a radio to communicate with the off map fire direction centre for indirect fire. Here is the guy who explains it all. He is also involved with CM Professional. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 19 minutes ago, chuckdyke said: No radio near the mortars no indirect fire, the mortars can only give direct fire. The reason you need a radio to communicate with the off map fire direction centre for indirect fire. Here is the guy who explains it all. He is also involved with CM Professional. I'm sorry...But that's just not true !!!! In the test i run above everything was working perfectly...Just now i ran another test in witch i removed all other HQs other than the Werfer HQ (witch has no radios) out of command/sight...The Werfer HQ was perfectly able to call a firemission from the ON-MAP mortars.... You must be talking of OFF-MAP mortars only perhaps... The radio communications you here are most likely justy for flavour...atleast in this situation.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 2 minutes ago, Glubokii Boy said: I'm sorry...But that's just not true !!!! In the test i run above everything was working perfectly...Just now i ran another test in witch i removed all other HQs other than the Werfer HQ (witch has no radios) out of command/sight...The Werfer HQ was perfectly able to call a firemission from the ON-MAP mortars.... You must be talking of OFF-MAP mortars only perhaps... The radio communications you here are most likely justy for flavour...atleast in this situation.... I rest my case on map mortars need communication with the fire direction centre which is off map. The HQ on the end of the map is in communication with the Fire Direction Centre ( I see his C2 Icon) The Werfer HQ sees his upper echelon in the distance. All their radio buttons are green so the fire mission goes ahead. The other two mortars are out of contact. Which I don't see the location. It is the way my references explains it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 23 minutes ago, chuckdyke said: I rest my case on map mortars need communication with the fire direction centre which is off map. The HQ on the end of the map is in communication with the Fire Direction Centre ( I see his C2 Icon) The Werfer HQ sees his upper echelon in the distance. All their radio buttons are green so the fire mission goes ahead. The other two mortars are out of contact. Which I don't see the location. It is the way my references explains it. What the set of pictures above demonstrates is that the Schwere HQ has to be within CLOSE visual distance to the Werfer HQ in order for the firesupport link to work... It really doesn't have that much to do with the higher up HQs up front. For the firesupport link to work the Werfer HQ needs to be included as it is the immidiate HQ to the mortar teams....If you remove the Werfer Hq from the link and replace it with the Schwere HQ the link will not be complete and the firesupport will not work.... What the series of pictures above shows is that when it comes to firesupport-missions ALL links has to be either within CLOSE visual distance or have a radio...Since the Werfer HQ does not have a radio it needs to be within CLOSE distance to the mortars and the Schwere HQ needs to be within CLOSE distance to the Werfer HQ... As can be seen in the series of pictures above...If the Schwere HQ is not within CLOSE visual distance to Werfer HQ the possibility to call for firesupport is blocked by any other HQ other then the Werfer HQ. Ones the Schwere Hq moves to within CLOSE visual distance to the Werfer HQ all other HQs can call for fire... The Second test i did with having the Werfer HQ being able to call for fire even without having a radio was not made with this set-up...But a slightelly tweaked one where the Werfer HQ was indeed out of command by higher HQs...NO RADIO INVOLVED !! Let me provide you with a few pictures.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 1. Here all higher HQ are placed behind a TALL wall way up front. 2. As can be seen...The Werfer HQ is completally out of command with higher ups. 3. Yet...No problem what so ever to call for firesupport...Including hearing radio comms. 4. Target selected. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted October 15, 2022 Author Share Posted October 15, 2022 22 hours ago, Glubokii Boy said: This is indeed strange...Is the werfer gruppe HQ out of visiual contact with all other HQs or only with the mortars ? If it has no visual contact with any HQ it should indeed be out of command....as it has no radio. The issue still is, what is the meaning or purpose of the green "in command C2" buttons? If the C2 buttons are all green and that means that all the units have C2, then why is it that none of the FO's or HQ's (that are not within visual range of the onmap mortars) can access the mortars? If all the C2 buttons are green but the HQ's in the chain of command that are far away cannot access the onmap mortars, then doesn't that mean that the purpose of the C2 buttons is bogus/eye candy? The only other wrinkle in this mystery is that the Schwere Zug HQ does not show any command line between it and Werfer Gruppe HQ. Why is there no command line if they are in the same chain of command? My thought is that there is some sort of bug to do with the chain of command. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 48 minutes ago, Erwin said: The only other wrinkle in this mystery is that the Schwere Zug HQ does not show any command line between it and Werfer Gruppe HQ. Why is there no command line if they are in the same chain of command? My thought is that there is some sort of bug to do with the chain of command. Non of the HQs provides a link to a lower level HQ it seems (try checking some other mid level HQs)...Only to HQs higher up the chain and to directly assigned units. In this situation the Werfer HQ is beneath the Schwere HQ in the chain of command...Therefor no link. 52 minutes ago, Erwin said: If the C2 buttons are all green and that means that all the units have C2, then why is it that none of the FO's or HQ's (that are not within visual range of the onmap mortars) can access the mortars? The werfer HQ is in DISTANT visual contact with one of your radio equiped HQs...That is close enough to be 'in command' (green button) but NOT close enough to recieve or transmit accurate enough information to communicate a working firesupport request. Also...It seems that the mortars immidiate HQ needs to be the one to share the information with the mortars...That is the Werfer HQ...If i understand one of your previous posts correct you had advanced the Werfer HQ forward to be used as a spotter....That will not work...They will need to stay with the mortars... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 I just realised that a small typo has been made in the text for pic 4 out of the first 7 up above... the current text: 4. The Schwere HQ has been withdrawn to a distance of 12 actionsquares from the Werfer HQ and are not within CLOSE VISUAL distance to that HQ. It should read: 4. The Schwere HQ has been withdrawn to a distance of 12 actionsquares from the Werfer HQ and is NOW within CLOSE VISUAL distance to that HQ. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 I close this conversation, if people don't take notice of the references. Any HQ can request a fire mission but you need to be in contact with the fire direction centre. This can only be done by radio. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vacillator Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 26 minutes ago, chuckdyke said: I close this conversation That reminds me of a boss I once had, who had a habit of disagreeing with everyone else. He would often say 'that's it, end of discussion' and leave the room. Only to come back a few minutes later with more. Everyone still disagreed with him. And thought various thoughts about him . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Vacillator said: That reminds me of a boss I once had, who had a habit of disagreeing with everyone else. He would often say 'that's it, end of discussion' and leave the room. Only to come back a few minutes later with more. Everyone still disagreed with him. And thought various thoughts about him . After twenty years playing the game at least I know that the fire direction centre is always off the map. Whether you have mortars on the map or not. I posted the references from people who know what they are talking about. Now happy gaming the upper echelons of "Command and Control" usually is of the map. Where is the scenario with a dead flat map? Just post a scenario so we can analyze and demonstrate our findings. Your boss was not your boss for nothing. I am retired now but found the attrition of certain people useful. Still avoid it as much as you can. Edited October 15, 2022 by chuckdyke 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vacillator Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 Sorry Chuck, I was just joking. Anyway I got you, you continued the conversation . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 30 minutes ago, Vacillator said: Sorry Chuck, I was just joking. Anyway I got you, you continued the conversation . I can easily demonstrate that the C2 on the map and artillery (mortars and up) don't depend on the C2. If you say artillery in the game is too abstract, I agree with you 100%. I like to see something like this. As I posted the guy is also playing CM. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 6 hours ago, chuckdyke said: After twenty years playing the game at least I know that the fire direction centre is always off the map. Whether you have mortars on the map or not. I posted the references from people who know what they are talking about. Now happy gaming the upper echelons of "Command and Control" usually is of the map. Where is the scenario with a dead flat map? Just post a scenario so we can analyze and demonstrate our findings. Your boss was not your boss for nothing. I am retired now but found the attrition of certain people useful. Still avoid it as much as you can. From the CM 4.0 manual.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 10 minutes ago, Glubokii Boy said: From the CM 4.0 manual.. You don't tell me anything new. The green buttons don't play a single role, the mortar needs to be in contact with a unit with a radio. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 Re above only 6 minutes to get into contact with the fire direction centre. There is some abstract business going on under the hood. It is not the way I play Red Thunder I must say. Soviets use mortars in the direct mode. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 (edited) 17 minutes ago, chuckdyke said: You don't tell me anything new. The green buttons don't play a single role, the mortar needs to be in contact with a unit with a radio. I dont think thats what Glubokii Boy was saying. The mortars dont have communications with their Platoon or Company HQs, fine. But they don't need to be in contact with their immediate HQs to call in fire missions. They are accessing the network via HQs who are close with radios. Correct? I see a lot of troops on the field by the mortars. Surely one of them has a radio. The Valentines probably do. Which is a good thing, because theyre FAR too slow to be runners for artillery. (They are really, really slow tanks) It appears your sapper HQ is also using someone elses radio. What if you moved the tanks away? Edited October 16, 2022 by Artkin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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