Jack In The Box Effect - Russian Tanks

[CanuckGamer]

After seeing  the pictures of Russian tanks in Ukraine with their turrets blown off and reading about the so called jack in the box effect maybe this should be added to Cold War, ha ha.  I assume Russian tanks in the 80's were just as flawed.  

[IICptMillerII]

I think its interesting that everyone seems to have collectively forget Russian tank turrets popping. Goes back to WW2, but was made famous for modern tank types in the Gulf War. People seem to be rediscovering this now that the war in Ukraine is all the rage. 

Anyways, it isn't possible in the CMx2 engine. Something to do with how the models are built/done in the engine. Someone in the art department might be able to explain more.

Edited April 28, 2022 by IICptMillerII

[BeondTheGrave]

12 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

I think its interesting that everyone seems to have collectively forget Russian tank turrets popping. Goes back to WW2, but was made famous for modern tank types in the Gulf War. People seem to be rediscovering this now that the war in Ukraine is all the rage. 

Anyways, it isn't possible in the CMx2 engine. Something to do with how the models are built/done in the engine. Someone in the art department might be able to explain more.

Wait so youre saying its bad to put all the ammo down into the hull? 

[Bubba883XL]

it was the so called, disadvantage for their tanks per say, as they used auto loaders, and tried to keep a low profile of the tank so they sacrificed 1 crew member, but poorly stored ammunition meant any hot hit would cook it good...

[Grey_Fox]

I think this is a timely article regarding Soviet/Russian tank design philosophy: https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/technical-reflections-russias-armoured-fighting-vehicles

Edited April 28, 2022 by Grey_Fox

[ThathumanHayden]

I'm wondering about the actual crew survivability of Soviet T-64/72/80 series vehicles. I've seen a lot of tanks getting hit and not loosing their turrets in Syria and Ukraine, but many images of wrecks are missing their turrets. Anyone have sources on this? Some have lost their turret only after fire spread to the autoloader, and some explode instantly; but I don't know much about this.

[domfluff]

Crew survivability tends to be a couple of things: how easily the ammo cooks off is one of them, but the other is how fast you can egress the vehicle. Neither is good for Soviet-derived armour.

[Simcoe]

I have no sympathies for the Soviet Union or current Russian government but I wonder if what we see as barbaric is just being realistic. If the war that these machines were built for ever occurred would crew survivability matter? The crew may be killed or captured anyway and it was all for naught. Why not have 100 more tanks to throw into a war that may not last longer than a month.

[Erwin]

21 hours ago, Simcoe said:

I wonder if what we see as barbaric is just being realistic

We saw the same "realistic" approach in WW2.  IIRC it was not expected that a T-34 would last more than a couple of months so no need for xnt engineering (or xnt crew training).  Quantity was more important.  What is interesting about the Ukraine war is if that philosophy is still valid or if we are seeing a new paradigm.

[Simcoe]

1 hour ago, Erwin said:

We saw the same "realistic" approach in WW2.  IIRC it was not expected that a T-34 would last more than a couple of months so no need for xnt engineering (or xnt crew training).  Quantity was more important.  What is interesting about the Ukraine war is if that philosophy is still valid or if we are seeing a new paradigm.

The same approach is probably more true than ever. How would an Abrams handle a javelin/NLAW? Would you be able to save the crew every time? If the crew survived would you be able to get them back to your lines?

[Gary R Lukas]

They were trying to save money with their armored vehicles so all they cared about was how many they could put in the field, unlike the west who adds blast doors to try and save the crew and the vehicle if possible. Tanks are replaceable, crewmembers aren't, and to have a good tank crew is more valuable than a burnt-out rusting tank hull

[chuckdyke]

8 hours ago, Simcoe said:

How would an Abrams handle a javelin/NLAW?

It relies on combined arms warfare on its own a Kornet will knock it out. The game models it very well. The same for a Javelin or NLAW the odds the crew surviving are better. The Russians rely on a conscript army, as outdated as Napoleon who introduced it. If your army doesn't believe in attrition the morale improves. 

[Splinty]

On 4/30/2022 at 11:55 AM, Simcoe said:

The same approach is probably more true than ever. How would an Abrams handle a javelin/NLAW? Would you be able to save the crew every time? If the crew survived would you be able to get them back to your lines?

The Abrams would definitely be knocked out. But, because the ammunition is sealed in an armored compartment that has blast panels to direct any exploding ammo out of the tank and away from the crew, they have a much higher chance of getting out.  

[womble]

Are we seeing more turret-launches because of the way the ammo is laid out to minimise hits into storage from the side, but many of the hits on tanks in the Ukraine have been from top-attack munitions which "see" a much bigger slice of the propellant pie...?

[Warts 'n' all]

There were a lot of crimes committed on both sides of the Iron Curtain during the Cold War,. But, none as bad as this ... 

 

[Vacillator]

4 hours ago, Warts 'n' all said:

There were a lot of crimes committed on both sides of the Iron Curtain during the Cold War,. But, none as bad as this ... 

 

I would have to agree.  Were you in the audience perhaps?

[Aragorn2002]

On 4/28/2022 at 6:09 AM, CanuckGamer said:

After seeing  the pictures of Russian tanks in Ukraine with their turrets blown off and reading about the so called jack in the box effect maybe this should be added to Cold War, ha ha.  I assume Russian tanks in the 80's were just as flawed.  

Long time ago since I've played it, but I believe Steel Beasts has this feature.

[MikeyD]

I read (parts of) a memoir of a WWII Russian tanker who rode American Shermans (or perhaps M10s). The tanker said, even back then, that one advantage of American tanks was if they got penetrated and started to burn they wouldn't EXPLODE like Russian tanks. Not even escaping a Russian tank was a guarantee of survival because it would likely detonate like a bomb as you're running off. An American tank would merely burn and pop as the rounds cooked off inside.Russian AT rounds got their high penetration values from using much more energetic (and unstable) propellant.

Edited May 27, 2022 by MikeyD