How Hot is Ukraine Gonna Get?

[MSBoxer]

15 minutes ago, danfrodo said:

I dont think these monuments have any resemblence of insight. Its not a memorial to the victims of crimes, it is a celebration of the perpetrators. Or would you leave Hitler monuments up just so people can google his name and discuss the finer points of his politics? No. You tear that down and put a memorial to his victims on the same ground..

Back in the mid-late 80s I was in Berlin working for a branch of our govt that I cannot name performing duties I cannot discuss (not as exciting as it sounds).

At the time I had the opportunity to visit many of the Soviet/East German memorials and I was always impressed with the effort that was put into representing a mythical recounting of history.  Now this is nothing new in how we stylize our desired perceptions of our particular cultures, but I distinctly recall thinking that these works were probably the grandest form of social/cultural masturbation I had ever encountered.

[FancyCat]

I'm rolling my eyes right now, it's not like they blew up the Tiergarten memorial or melted down the Russian soldier on top for bullets, all they did was take the tanks to use them since the West won't supply any.

Hardly desecrating a memorial, and maybe making a decent point if the idea of tearing down a memorial to be used as a weapon for war offends you instead of the idea that Ukraine needs to think of using a T-34 to defend for the 5th Battle of Kharkov.

[danfrodo]

Dang, Steve went there.  I was avoiding that one for fear of vacation.  Thanks for saying that, Steve, needed to be said.

Maybe we can all agree to drop the monument thing and get back to Ukraine?

Anyone have any news on the alleged ship attack?

And what a good way to start May:  UKR has already taken more territory in a few days than what RU has taken in a month.  I am feeling a little bit of optimism right now. 

[Battlefront.com]

1 minute ago, MSBoxer said:

Back in the mid-late 80s I was in Berlin working for a branch of our govt that I cannot name performing duties I cannot discuss (not as exciting as it sounds).

At the time I had the opportunity to visit many of the Soviet/East German memorials and I was always impressed with the effort that was put into representing a mythical recounting of history.  Now this is nothing new in how we stylize our desired perceptions of our particular cultures, but I distinctly recall thinking that these works were probably the grandest form of social/cultural masturbation I had ever encountered.

For a long time now many historians have pointed out that Russians "fetishize" The Great Patriotic War.  Their deeds were all heroic and just, no admission that the Soviet victory over the Third Reich continued the terror for hundreds of millions of people under Soviet oppression.

Steve

[LongLeftFlank]

35 minutes ago, Huba said:

In Warsaw, for many decades the biggest building by far was the Palace of Culture and Arts - a "gift" from USSR, meant as symbol of Soviet rule. We didn't tear it down cause it would be silly financially, and with time it lost it's grim symbolic meaning (to most people). But if instead of the office building, there  was a huge Stalin statue, it would be demolished without blinking in 1989 at the latest.

"Offers the best view in Warsaw, since you can't see it when you're inside", I believe the saying is, right?

[Battlefront.com]

Just now, danfrodo said:

Dang, Steve went there.  I was avoiding that one for fear of vacation.  Thanks for saying that, Steve, needed to be said.

It's an appropriate analogy and one that's been hotly debated in the US for many years.  The monument thing is veering off topic and towards distraction, but I thought some broader context needed to get brought into the thread.

Steve

[Vacillator]

1 hour ago, Gpig said:

It's a joke.

Correct, and not a bad one either.

[panzermartin]

4 minutes ago, Huba said:

But there's quite a difference between cemetery and monument, don't you think? The example of Hitler statues is actually great here, you wouldn't allow it to stand anywehere, no way, right? Tearing down monuments of your (perceived) opressors is only natural and healthy.

There are no Stalin monuments in Berlin. Just Soviet army ones. While not a cemetery It's sort of a memorial for the dead. We have soviet monuments for the fallen here as well. They were vandalized with Ukrainian symbols and graffiti. 

[Huba]

Just now, LongLeftFlank said:

"Offers the best view in Warsaw, since you can't see it when you're inside", I believe the saying is, right?

Can't upvote, but yeah, exactly, that was the saying. With all the modern skyscrapers around it isn't that imposing anymore, but for decades it was many times higher then the next building in the city. Still there are nutjobs who call to demolish it, and recently they even gained a bit of traction for obvious reasons, but it won't happen. The building is not that offensive in itself, and it's initial meaning is lost to most of people.

[Huba]

1 minute ago, panzermartin said:

There are no Stalin monuments in Berlin. Just Soviet army ones. While not a cemetery It's sort of a memorial for the dead. We have soviet monuments for the fallen here as well. They were vandalized with Ukrainian symbols and graffiti. 

But the Soviet army, apart from incidentally being a tool that removed the Nazis, deserve no commemoration at all, they were almost equally evil. Gloryfiing them is not OK.

[danfrodo]

well well well

It’s seeming more and more likely that the Claims about the Russian Frigate Admiral Makarov being stuck by Ukrainian Anti-Ship Missiles off the Coast of Odessa is True, multiple Rescue Ships and Aircraft are reportedly in the Area with U.S Surveillance Drones keeping eyes on it. pic.twitter.com/JTuAKr1VEd

— OSINTdefender (@sentdefender) May 6, 2022

 

and this fun map

[FancyCat]

15 minutes ago, FancyCat said:

I'm rolling my eyes right now, it's not like they blew up the Tiergarten memorial or melted down the Russian soldier on top for bullets, all they did was take the tanks to use them since the West won't supply any.

Hardly desecrating a memorial, and maybe making a decent point if the idea of tearing down a memorial to be used as a weapon for war offends you instead of the idea that Ukraine needs to think of using a T-34 to defend for the 5th Battle of Kharkov.

Actually, the video makes a pretty good point I think is being ignored in this discussion. Ukrainians took part in the defense of the Soviet Union, Ukraine as a successor state to the Soviet Union took part in the destruction of the Nazi regime. Why shouldn't Ukraine take back her heritage, her tanks to be used once more in a battle against the same sort of opressors Nazi Germany was? She shares the same Soviet victory heritage as Russia, so implying Ukraine is desecrating it is washing away the Ukrainian contribution to victory over Nazi Germany.

Considering how Russia heavily distorts history to make it seem like Ukraine was alongside Hitler, makes it very important for pushback. All the successor states of the Soviet Union can rightfully claim their heritage of Nazi defeat, not just Russia.

Edited May 6, 2022 by FancyCat

[Gpig]

6 minutes ago, panzermartin said:

There are no Stalin monuments in Berlin. Just Soviet army ones. While not a cemetery It's sort of a memorial for the dead. We have soviet monuments for the fallen here as well. They were vandalized with Ukrainian symbols and graffiti. 

I expect that if us Canadians went ahead and initiated an unjust, illegal and war-crime-filled attack on, er . . . Greenland(?).  Then I wouldn't be surprised if Canadian War Memorials throughout the world (Holland, Hong Kong, Korea etc.) were defaced with Polar Bear graffiti.

[Huba]

New arms package approved by Biden:

 

[Suleyman]

Russians are losing way too much armor. If they don’t find solutions for it the Ukrainians are gonna really even out the playing field soon

the only T-90M loss so far was due to artillery I saw the aftermath pics. Who decided to leave the best tank in their armed forces out there to be hit with arty

Edited May 6, 2022 by Suleyman

[danfrodo]

5 minutes ago, Suleyman said:

Russians are losing way too much armor. If they don’t find solutions for it the Ukrainians are gonna really even out the playing field soon

And if RU is concentrating their increasingly limited armor in the 'Great Patriotic Liberation of Donbas' Front, I wonder what opportunities UKR will find on other fronts.  I am still hoping for some local collapse, probably brought on by low quality troops getting hammered by artillery and then being infiltrated by infantry followed by armor.  RU simply cannot be strong everywhere on this whole insanely long front. 

[danfrodo]

20 minutes ago, Huba said:

New arms package approved by Biden:

 

3 counter artillery radars:  that's actually latin for "here's payback, f-ers!"

[billbindc]

40 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

About the monuments thing... they do not represent a historical past, they represent a glorification of a particular aspect of it.  Some monuments are intended to memorialize true victims of some historical act, others are monuments intended to continue the domination of victims from the past well into the future.  This is the history of Confederate monuments in the US.  They were put there to show African Americans that even though the South lost the war, they didn't lose their domination over them.

 

The statue of General McPherson in McPherson Square in Washington DC was cast using the metal from cannon captured during the siege and subsequent burning of Atlanta. Pretty much the last word in showing who won without all of the flowery bull**** and hypocritical rhapsodizing one finds further….South.

[Huba]

3 minutes ago, billbindc said:

The statue of General McPherson in McPherson Square in Washington DC was cast using the metal from cannon captured during the siege and subsequent burning of Atlanta. Pretty much the last word in showing who won without all of the flowery bull**** and hypocritical rhapsodizing one finds further….South.

Now puting the exact same statue in Atlanta could be perceived as a bit offensive to the good citizens of this city, don't you agree? That's exactly the problem with the Red Army monuments spread across the former Warsaw Pact countries.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Huba

[Suleyman]

12 minutes ago, danfrodo said:

And if RU is concentrating their increasingly limited armor in the 'Great Patriotic Liberation of Donbas' Front, I wonder what opportunities UKR will find on other fronts.  I am still hoping for some local collapse, probably brought on by low quality troops getting hammered by artillery and then being infiltrated by infantry followed by armor.  RU simply cannot be strong everywhere on this whole insanely long front. 

If I was them I’d just use the old equipment. For long range and night engagements they can afford to use newer ones. It doesn’t make sense to send T-90As (or Ms) T-80Us, T-72B3s to the meatgrinder areas. They all have Thermals which are limited in number. Anyways let them do what they do shouldn’t have invaded Ukraine in the first place now they gotta suffer losses

Edited May 6, 2022 by Suleyman

[DesertFox]

 

 

[Phantom Captain]

6 minutes ago, billbindc said:

The statue of General McPherson in McPherson Square in Washington DC was cast using the metal from cannon captured during the siege and subsequent burning of Atlanta. Pretty much the last word in showing who won without all of the flowery bull**** and hypocritical rhapsodizing one finds further….South.

The last word is the cemetery at Arlington.  The former home of General R.E Lee and his wife.  Best FU in history.  Imho, of course.

[panzermartin]

36 minutes ago, Huba said:

But the Soviet army, apart from incidentally being a tool that removed the Nazis, deserve no commemoration at all, they were almost equally evil. Gloryfiing them is not OK.

I swear if I ever read again that the Red army was equally evil with the SS and the Wehrmacht that made my father starve as a kid and his friends getting killed while painting slogans on walls, I'm going to delete my account here. There was nothing evil with the T 34s rolling down the streets of Berlin in 1945....Their crew could have been Ukrainian, Polish, Czech... Too bad I once had fun making mods for CMBB. Some had crosses, some had red stars, noone was actually offended.

It's still a WW2 monument, not a stazi agent bust. 

[cesmonkey]

In the latter half of this video from the Austrian Army, another prediction that the Donbass encirclement will have the same outcome as the 1943 Kursk battle due to mostly the same factors.
 

 

[Huba]

7 minutes ago, panzermartin said:

I swear if I ever read again that the Red army was equally evil with the SS and the Wehrmacht that made my father starve as a kid and his friends getting killed while painting slogans on walls, I'm going to delete my account here. There was nothing evil with the T 34s rolling down the streets of Berlin in 1945....Their crew could have been Ukrainian, Polish, Czech... Too bad I once had fun making mods for CMBB. Some had crosses, some had red stars, noone was actually offended.

It's still a WW2 monument, not a stazi agent bust. 

Trying to be objective, I'll concur that Soviet army was a bit less evil than Wehrmacht. A bit. They were still a murderous bunch that (as organization) do not deserve any commemoration in countries they enslaved.

Edited May 7, 2022 by Huba