How Hot is Ukraine Gonna Get?

[Rice]

1 hour ago, Der Zeitgeist said:

I completely disagree. All it takes is one ignorant article in a tabloid or wherever and BFC could be in a world of hurt. Selling DLC with a Russian campaign that lets the consumer play the Invasion of Ukraine might even be construed as supporting a war of aggression in some countries (like Germany), which could lead to serious legal troubles, a ban on sales, or anything else that a small company wouldn't want to take a chance with.

Ok, but as I mentioned, the game still has gone on sale multiple times during the war. Are we going to conveniently forget that? How is that not dangerously close to profiteering as is?

[Huba]

Another ammo dump in flames.

[chuckdyke]

33 minutes ago, Rice said:

Ok, but as I mentioned, the game still has gone on sale multiple times during the war. Are we going to conveniently forget that? How is that not dangerously close to profiteering as is?

Playing a game about it is not much different than reading about it. The game is a form of communication. All those politicians on both sides on 6 figure salaries, journalists etc are profiteering. I feel for the boys on both sides instead of playing a game of soccer against each other they are killing each other. Their remuneration is very modest too.

[Huba]

Investigated further and deleted the post, it was disinformation. 

Edited July 8, 2022 by Huba

[Machor]

36 minutes ago, Rice said:

Ok, but as I mentioned, the game still has gone on sale multiple times during the war. Are we going to conveniently forget that? How is that not dangerously close to profiteering as is?

Mate, I've been checking the BFC website religiously since CMCW was announced, and unless I somehow missed something, they've NEVER had a sale neither before nor after the beginning of the war; in fact, I don't remember BFC having a sale EVER - I do remember Steve saying that they don't have sales as a company policy.

If you're talking about the sales on Steam, I remember well how BFC resisted calls to sell there for years, and some CM titles appeared there only recently after BFC got involved with Slitherine/Matrix Games [which I very much support]. Therefore, you should be sending your complaints to Steam.

[Aragorn2002]

1 hour ago, Battlefront.com said:

For sure.

There's a big difference having something that has been on sale for years continue to be for sale vs. releasing something brand new.  Same big difference between having an already existing product go on sale with all the other products of a company vs. having a sale for a specific product. 

We are doing nothing to use this war to our financial advantage.  Releasing new content at this time or specifically promoting CMBS would.  It's not only bad business, I think it's immoral.  I'd sooner delete the 98% done Module for CMBS, pissing away months of work we've already paid for, rather than release it under these circumstances.

Sorry to disappoint some of you fans, but we do indeed have scruples.

Steve

Understandable. What about the battle pack on KG Mühlenkamp for CMRT?

Edited July 8, 2022 by Aragorn2002

[Taranis]

"Something is on fire reportedly near the Hydroelectric Power Plant in Nova Kakhovka, Kherson Oblast"
 

 

[Grigb]

5 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

  There's multiple reasons why Russia might want to attack here:

• Shorter logistics which might be safer than those in occupied Ukraine
• Possibility that Ukraine's forces in the area aren't up to handling a major assault
• Possibility of rapidly taking Ukrainian ground (i.e. PR win)
• If successful, better protecting Belgorod from Ukrainian mischief

We should know in a few days.

Steve

Something is definitely brewing there. Some hardcore volunteers are already up there. They are working on improving local drone capabilities for cross border strikes. Also, according to RUMINT RU gov already approved raising local volunteer units. But it is being "sabotaged" by local RU regular commanders as volunteer units are seen as uncontrollable partisans (they are indeed uncontrollable partisans with their own agenda).

If the war will not end until September we will see the emergence of another power actor - Nationalist paramilitary. RU ISIS is being born in front of our eyes. 

[dan/california]

4 minutes ago, Grigb said:

Something is definitely brewing there. Some hardcore volunteers are already up there. They are working on improving local drone capabilities for cross border strikes. Also, according to RUMINT RU gov already approved raising local volunteer units. But it is being "sabotaged" by local RU regular commanders as volunteer units are seen as uncontrollable partisans (they are indeed uncontrollable partisans with their own agenda).

If the war will not end until September we will see the emergence of another power actor - Nationalist paramilitary. RU ISIS is being born in front of our eyes. 

That will kick the second Russian civil war off nicely...

Edited July 8, 2022 by dan/california

[Rice]

3 minutes ago, Machor said:

If you're talking about the sales on Steam, I remember well how BFC resisted calls to sell there for years, and some CM titles appeared there only recently after BFC got involved with Slitherine/Matrix Games [which I very much support]. Therefore, you should be sending your complaints to Steam.

Though true that Slitherine controls the Steam sales, which they can opt into and out of at their leisure mind you, it doesn't negate the fact that both BFC and Slitherine are participating in the sale and profiting from it. As previously mentioned, publishers have control of their game's participation in a sale. Yes it is also true that it is an existing product, and all the other titles on Steam went on sale, but it still stands that you are putting the game on sale during the conflict while simultaneously refusing to work on the game during the conflict. Though from recollection, Slitherine has taken the same stance on anything Russia related. I understand the fear of living in a world where bad press could potentially prohibit participation in certain markets, but the morality reasoning isn't sound, and no matter what other factors exist, CMBS is still being put on sale, repeatedly, during the conflict.

Stepping away from CMBS, the amount of updates regarding CMCW has also fallen to near complete silence except for tournament integration with Slitherine. If my assumption that the blockade on Russia related anything applies to this, I would be very disappointed. The game takes place in another era, with a different government, different flag (don't reply to this with a snarky remark about USSR flags popping up in Ukraine), and so clearly isn't promoting the Russian Federation that a journalist out for blood would be stumped finding enough straws to grasp into a headline. I don't see any reason why further content should be halted. Especially considering the team that put the idea together clearly (based on their forum posts and game-content contributions) is so enthusiastic about adding non-Russian factions that you would have a plethora of new content that pits the player against the Soviets. Using the same logic as @Battlefront.com did earlier, if you're promoting the Russian related content that was already out there, it's permissible. If you added the British, West-Germans, or even any of the other non-Russian WARSAW Nations, there would be no moral dilemma at all.

I am a fan of CM, I want the best for the franchise as much as any other patron, but I am also admittedly irritated by the current direction. I made my post on the 1000th page out of love for the franchise, not spite, hate, or bitterness. Having played CMPE a good bit, I know there is so much potential for growth and improvement. I just hope it gets actualized and not left in the dust, that is all.

[Grigb]

1 minute ago, dan/california said:

That will kick the second Russian civil war off nicely...

Indeed. The issue is it will be ugly, and they will try to hit NATO countries whenever possible. They are not regulars, so they are not afraid of Article 5. Well, it will not be like conventional invasion but just cross border raids. Still for dead civilians that will not matter much.

[Huba]

16 minutes ago, Taranis said:

"Something is on fire reportedly near the Hydroelectric Power Plant in Nova Kakhovka, Kherson Oblast"
 

 

What is mind boggling to me is that it was 3 weeks since the HIMARS arrived, and like 6 or more since it was officially announced. And it is still happening. 

They knew perfectly well what's coming. And for almost 2 months they didn't lift a finger to mitigate it, and are paying a huge price for it now. That is a reason for court martial and summary executions. It has to absolutely wreck the morale too - not strikes themselves, but the realization of how inept the people in charge are..

[FancyCat]

15 minutes ago, Grigb said:

Something is definitely brewing there. Some hardcore volunteers are already up there. They are working on improving local drone capabilities for cross border strikes. Also, according to RUMINT RU gov already approved raising local volunteer units. But it is being "sabotaged" by local RU regular commanders as volunteer units are seen as uncontrollable partisans (they are indeed uncontrollable partisans with their own agenda).

If the war will not end until September we will see the emergence of another power actor - Nationalist paramilitary. RU ISIS is being born in front of our eyes. 

Ukraine has been remarkably restrained in attacking across the border, but i could see raids across the border in response, hopefully Ukraine clamps down on loosely commanded units. 

[Aragorn2002]

33 minutes ago, Grigb said:

Indeed. The issue is it will be ugly, and they will try to hit NATO countries whenever possible. They are not regulars, so they are not afraid of Article 5. Well, it will not be like conventional invasion but just cross border raids. Still for dead civilians that will not matter much.

Let's hope the Russians will be that stupid. It will finally convince everybody that this is not another cold war conflict, but a fight to the death. That may sound melodramatic, but I'm convinced there's much more at stake than just the future of Ukraine. So, yes, escalation is inevitable and needed.

[panzermartin]

2 hours ago, Rice said:

Ok, but as I mentioned, the game still has gone on sale multiple times during the war. Are we going to conveniently forget that? How is that not dangerously close to profiteering as is?

I don't think BFC has complete control over steam sales. They have their own algorithm there. It's rather unfair of you to blame the developers. 

[Grigb]

Just read another RU Nat Propagandist. I think we need a new verb - to himars something, means to screw it up beyond recognition but in precise professional manner.

Quote

HIMARS [is] in action. The a very precise work is going on on command posts. The losses are very serious.
After such an outburst, it is customary for cultured and educated people to smash the Bankovy [UKR gov street]. And to make a warning shot at Fashington. [it is how he wrote]
[To burn it] To dust.

[UPDATE] Also he is saying (based on RUMINT) the following

Quote

...In August, a major battle will take place in the southern direction, after which the "expenditure of personnel" will inevitably lead to a decision on partial mobilization. And in the strategic perspective - and to the full...

 

Edited July 8, 2022 by Grigb

[Huba]

27 minutes ago, Aragorn2002 said:

Let's hope the Russians will be that stupid. It will finally convince everybody that this is not another cold war conflict, but a fight to the death. That may sound melodramatic, but I'm convinced there's much more at stake than just the future of Ukraine. So, yes, escalation is inevitable and needed.

Conflict spilling to Belarus, and across RU border is a given at this point in my opinion. But if somebody shelled, or even worse, did a cross-border raid to say Narva, I imagine it could get really nasty really quickly...

 

12 minutes ago, Grigb said:

I think we need a new verb - to himars something, means to screw it up beyond recognition but in precise professional manner.

To himars/ himarsed/ himarsing is reserved for launching GMLRS on stuff I'm afraid  This actually starts to be used all over the place, with the number of strikes, relevant verb is needed.

Edit: and speaking of himarsing, ammo dump in Schakhtars keeps exploding:

 

Edited July 8, 2022 by Huba

[dan/california]

Even if War Monitor is suffering from a small excess of enthusiasm the extent to which the Russian logistics system is going up in flames is magnificent to behold. I wonder if the Russians are capable of getting a clue and going home? Or if they need a few tens of thousands more casualties first. 

Edited July 8, 2022 by dan/california

[chuckdyke]

39 minutes ago, Aragorn2002 said:

So, yes, escalation is inevitable and needed.

Cuban missile crisis. It ended as the next step was complete mutual destruction. Are we as brave today as they were 60 years ago. 

Edited July 8, 2022 by chuckdyke

[Huba]

5 minutes ago, dan/california said:

Even if War Monitor is suffering from a small excess of enthusiasm the extent to which the Russian logistics system is going up in flames is magnificent to behold. I wonder if the Russians are capable of getting a clue and going home? Or if they need a few tens of thousands more casualties first. 

Let's see if they manage to sort this out in next few weeks - if not I don't see how they could hope the Donbas offensive to continue. And if not, what then? Will they switch to Kharkiv/ Sumy/ Kyiv again, hoping that UA will not strike Russia proper with the same tenacity? I'm sure they will and US will be OK with that. And it would open the way for further strikes at military targets on  Russia proper. I guess there's no good option for RU but to pack their toys and go home

[Taranis]

Another one :
"Fire at the area of Topaz plant in Donetsk again"

 

[chuckdyke]

10 minutes ago, Huba said:

RU but to pack their toys and go home

I think we get a similar period  which was experienced between Israel and its Arab neighbours. 1967-1972. Russia will go back to the drawing board and start again in 2027. Five-year plans are their tradition. 

Edited July 8, 2022 by chuckdyke

[paxromana]

15 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

Five-year plans are their tradition. 

ANd were usually ... always ... marked by corruption and fantasy ... and with international sanctions on high tech, well, it would take them generations to try and modernise ... they wouldn't even be running to stay in place so much as running to try and stop from falling behind.

Meanwhile, in the West ... and in Ukraine ... 

[Aragorn2002]

38 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

Cuban missile crisis. It ended as the next step was complete mutual destruction. Are we as brave today as they were 60 years ago. 

Definitely not. But if we want to win in this confrontation, we will have to toughen up and show that we can also be dangerous and aggressive, when provoked and cornered. Putin will respect a fist in the teeth, not all our lamenting about how awful war is.

[chuckdyke]

8 minutes ago, paxromana said:

Nd were usually ... always ... marked by corruption and fantasy

You know the trouble with defending? You need to win every time. If you are the attacker, you need to win only once. Let me think logistics, Russia receives lend and lease from China. They always like to make money. 

Edited July 8, 2022 by chuckdyke